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Darius West

The History of New Pavis 1579-1610

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We know that in 1572 there was a nomad revolt in New Pavis where the nomad population sought to open the gates and allow their tribes in to plunder, but that it was inept, and Dorasar and the forces of New Pavis defeated the revolt. Apparently the nomads didn't like there being laws, and were subsequently denied council representation (previously a nomad right) the right to camp within 30km of New Pavis (or the Zebra Riders, Yelornans and Sun Domers would annihilate them?) The next thing we know is that Dorasar died in 1579.  We hear nothing further about New Pavis until 1610 when it surrenders to the Lunars after a single day of siege. 

Does that mean that nothing happened in New Pavis for 30 years? I doubt it.  We know that Dorasar was ruler of the city for life, but there was no clause by which his heirs could inherit the title, nor any other.  This meant that the city came under the rule of the City Council with the guidance of the Pavis Cult. So New Pavis effectively became a republic in all but name.  That in itself is pretty much without precedent in the cultures of Orlanth, Yelmalio or the Praxian pantheon.  A city-state republic is pretty much unheard of outside Ralios and Lake Safelster, even if the government is basically a glorified town council (in the case of New Pavis).

I have so many questions about this period.  Such as, were the citizens of New Pavis conscious of their status as an independent and sovereign republic?  If so, how patriotic were they?  Or did they think the city council was unexceptional?   Who served on the councils?  What laws did they pass?  We know that the Pavis Survivors fought at Moonbroth, but what sort of commitment of force did the city make?  What was going on in the Rubble at the time?  Did New Pavis have ongoing dealings with the human forts, or any other Rubble community?  Thirty years is quite a long time, and in fact longer than the period that the Lunars will occupy New Pavis in total.  What happened during that time other than a flood (or steady strong trickle) of Sartarite refugees coming to New Pavis?  I am hungry for sources of info if anyone has or knows of them.

I am equally hoping for and dreading a deafening silence on the matter.

 

Edited by Darius West

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New Pavis had exactly one industry - the artifact trade from the ruins of the Big Rubble, and support for that. Its economy was scraping the line of self-sufficiency with the nomads and their herds on board, and with the nomads' access to the city restricted, their incentive to feed the populace was reduced, too.

Pavis still remained the best outlet for goods unavailable in the chaparral or the Wastes, unless you continued to Swenstown - a border city not that friendly to the Beast Riders.

Adventurer activity in the Rubble would probably be the inverse of Lunar activity in the direction of Sartar. When the Prince had less to do for warriors, searching for artifacts would be a good interim job until the Prince had need for fighting people again. Especially if one went as a paid escort with some lesser share in the plunder but guaranteed pay.

We know the name of Dorasar's sons (King of Sartar p.33):

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 Daringle, a warlord who fought ancient ghosts, Praxian nomads, and found a treasure in the ruins of Old Pavis. 

According to p.37, this gentleman died only in 1624, which means he escaped the assassinations of 1610.

And Verlain, of no other deed than fathering a daughter named Brenna on a slave woman, who in turn gave birth to Enostar Bad-Dream aka "Argrath of Pavis".

The events of 1602 would surely have involved Pavis, too, if only as receptible for a number of refugees or exiles. The Lunar invasion of 1607 may have alarmed the city council, too.

 

I wonder whether the republic had any influence on Pavis County.

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22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Does that mean that nothing happened in New Pavis for 30 years? I doubt it.  We know that Dorasar was ruler of the city for life, but there was no clause by which his heirs could inherit the title, nor any other. 

I don't think that's what happened.  The relevant text is that "none of his heirs could take the title, nor could any other" Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p44.  I originally thought it meant that his heirs were judged to be mentally incompetent so that the council quietly took over power.  But I now think that the title is a heroic title and that nobody is able to complete its requirements (until Argrath)

 

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

This meant that the city came under the rule of the City Council with the guidance of the Pavis Cult. So New Pavis effectively became a republic in all but name.  That in itself is pretty much without precedent in the cultures of Orlanth, Yelmalio or the Praxian pantheon.  A city-state republic is pretty much unheard of outside Ralios and Lake Safelster, even if the government is basically a glorified town council (in the case of New Pavis).

Most cities are effectively city-states (n Sartar, they are run by City-Rings).  

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Did New Pavis have ongoing dealings with the human forts, or any other Rubble community? 

They undoubtedly had contact with Zebra Fort and the Real City.

 

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3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't think that's what happened.  The relevant text is that "none of his heirs could take the title, nor could any other" Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p44.  I originally thought it meant that his heirs were judged to be mentally incompetent so that the council quietly took over power.  But I now think that the title is a heroic title and that nobody is able to complete its requirements (until Argrath)

That is interesting.  Do we have any idea who the heirs may have been?  We do know that the Lunars purged them.

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Most cities are effectively city-states (in Sartar, they are run by City-Rings).  

I would offer a different opinion on that matter.  In Medieval Europe, cities were also run by their local councils, it is true, but they weren't city states.  Instead they paid their taxes directly into the Royal coffers and were not sovereign but subject to a sovereign in all things, save that a wise sovereign left them to govern their own affairs while they kept his coffers full (heaven forfend they neglect to do so).  In return the King recognized their charter, and frequently offered them monopolies to produce certain goods where they held a notable advantage over other producers.  As Sartar was a king, and the creator of a dynasty, there is no reason to suppose that the cities and the roads that comprised the backbone of the Kingdom of Sartar were not under Royal Charter.

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12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They undoubtedly had contact with Zebra Fort and the Real City.

That is certainly true.  We must wonder about Mani's Fort, Fort Opili, etc.  I would suspect the Halite mine was open but run by the trolls at the time, who no doubt traded with the Praxians who badly need their salt.

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1572-1610 is what I call the "Vanilla" setting for most of the tribes, they are free from New Pavis and effectively have to stay away. It's worth looking at the situation that Pavis was left in after the revolt and then what happens in the stabilisation period.

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By 1572 Duke Dorosar’s city of New Pavis had been established for about 25 years. Built up against the walls of the ruined old city, it was more often now being called Pavis. Foreigners were now calling the old city the Rubble, while Praxians continued to call the area inside the walls, Paragua’s Grazing. From the start, the Duke was careful in his dealings with the Praxians. He allied himself with the Praxian Zebra tribe  reestablished them close by in the Rubble. He met with the Most Respected Elder Norta-Ia at the Paps, granting the tribes three representatives on the Pavis city council. The Norta-Ia chose herself, the Paps Khan and the Storm Khan, all from her Bison tribe. All three fulfilled their ceremonial roles at the Paps, spending little or no time at the city. In their absence, trading with the city became almost exclusively Bison dominated. Raiding by bison clans to provide the city with what it needed became problematic to other tribes. After 25 years, access to metal weapons and armor through the city’s imports became inaccessible to the other tribes. Along with restricted access to Paragua’s Grazing, many in the other tribes had become angry with the situation. In 1572 violence exploded when those within the city allied to the other tribes revolted and tried to open the gate to allies outside. The coup was poorly planned and Dorosar’s defenders moved to prevent the attack before it began. There was savage bloodshed as the nomads were defeated by unexpected attacks by Orlanthi and the Zebra tribe.

Within the city the Orlanthi, Sundomers and Zebra tribe drove the fight outside walls, sealing the gates. Much of the attacking force were Impala tribe who had lost their grazings 25 years previously back up by other tribes. Bison riders from the nearby camp swelled the numbers and charged the attackers who had been preparing to enter the city. A large battle commenced just outside the city walls with many dead on both sides. This had a deep and lasting effect on Dorosar and the city. The realisation that this could happen again unless something was done about it meant change was needed.

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Dorosar removed all Praxian rights from the city council and forbid nomad camps on the south of the river within twenty miles of Pavis.

This sweeping statement is not entirely true. Dorosar's Praxian allies from the city's founding were given preference in reestablishing trade with the city. Gorgar Bluecloak's sable clan and the Zebra tribe became the main contact for animal trade with the city. The sable's setting up a small camp across the bridge.

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At the Paps, Norta-Ia passed on to the Great Herd ending the Bison time. The Song of the Elders was continued with the young Morokanth Grandmother Egajia being called by Eiritha. Duke Dorasar ruled New Pavis until his death seven years later. Prax and the Wastelands returned to their old ways prior to Dorosar and the new city.

The following years were uneventful, most nomads gave the city a wide berth, and continued their nomadic ways elsewhere. Refugees continued to arrive from Dragon Pass as the Lunar Empire spread its influence. 

The next period within New Pavis is what I call the refugee phase. Pavis is effectively a clearing centre for refugees arriving from Dragon Pass, the city has not much room so they are moved into the valley. Pavis is effectively the city centre for a growing rural population that needs specialists.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Lunar invasion of 1607 may have alarmed the city council, too.

The 1608 "invasion" was really just a large scouting party. They ended up at the paps. Pavisites would have been unconcerned. They'd stopped a revolt 35 years previous by shutting the gates. They had sturdy walls and sable allies camped outside and what could go wrong?

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I originally thought it meant that his heirs were judged to be mentally incompetent so that the council quietly took over power.  But I now think that the title is a heroic title and that nobody is able to complete its requirements (until Argrath)

I agree with this.

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Did New Pavis have ongoing dealings with the human forts, or any other Rubble community?

Totally. There are three Refuges within the wall themselves and one outside (Pavis GTA p11):

Real City - home of Pavis himself (allied with New Pavis)

Zebra Fort - home of the Zebra tribe (allied with New Pavis)

Mani's Fort - independant, however the city acts as a trading centre.

Indagos - (allied with New Pavis), rubble family.

Opili's fort is troll occupied (PGTA 337)

Edited by David Scott

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Indagos - (allied with New Pavis), rubble family.

Opili's fort is troll occupied (PGTA 337)

So, the Indagos are an old Rubble family.  From memory there is an Indagos involved in the "day" trade at the Halite mine?  Eddy?  In our game the poor fellow fell foul of Thurkan Thumper's ambitions and got his head staved in some time in 1619.

As to the Opili, what happened to the people?  Are they living under the trolls, or fled?

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4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As to the Opili, what happened to the people?  Are they living under the trolls, or fled?

Probably eaten - those that weren't killed or fled.

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2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Probably eaten - those that weren't killed or fled.

So, given that the Opili do manage to retake the fort eventually, I wonder what the survivors did in the interrim?  Where did they go?  Taking back the fort would take funds, and how were those raised?  How long did the trolls stay in Opili's fort?  Were the trolls lured out and dry gulched somehow?  It must be a pretty unusual occurrence for a rubble family to lose their fort after all.  I am guessing that survivors must have had a hidden escape tunnel or something.  The fact that the fort gets retaken suggests that the Opili had plans for such a contingency (and living in the Rubble of all places, who wouldn't?).

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4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The 1608 "invasion" was really just a large scouting party. They ended up at the paps. Pavisites would have been unconcerned. They'd stopped a revolt 35 years previous by shutting the gates. They had sturdy walls and sable allies camped outside and what could go wrong?

The difference between a reconnaissance in force and an invasion is the result. The venture of Hernan Cortez started as a reconnaissance in force, too, capturing Tenochtitlan was a lucky accident.

Why would the Pavisites worry? It's not like their main trading partner had suddenly lost immense amounts of wealth and freedom just a few years earlier, and now those conquerers make a move in their direction. Nothing to see here... Really?

What doesn't enter the walled city of New Pavis can still stop any food coming in from the Zola Fel Valley portion known as Pavis County. Even though much of the New Pavis food appears to be slaughtered nomad herd beasts, I think that produce from the surrounding farms will play a big role in feeding the city, too, and unlike Nochet, New Pavis has no great food storage. The city is scraping by.

Catering for transients (explorers and their guards, merchants) means that there are plenty food stalls and eateries in New Pavis, but where do the regular inhabitants get their food from? Does the inofficial lord of Sun Town provide food for the resident families, through reciprocal gifts and favors with farmers outside, possibly even importing from Sun County? Do the Ingilli support a portion of the urban population? Who feeds the residents who came as refugees from Sartar, did they have to swear fealty to one of the leading families inside the city, or some of the clans outside?

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4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Totally. There are three Refuges within the wall themselves and one outside (Pavis GTA p11):

Real City - home of Pavis himself (allied with New Pavis)

Zebra Fort - home of the Zebra tribe (allied with New Pavis)

Mani's Fort - independant, however the city acts as a trading centre.

Indagos - (allied with New Pavis), rubble family.

Opili's fort is troll occupied (PGTA 337)

Indagos is described as acting just like any of the clans that had come with Duke Dorasar. While a rubble family, they took advantage of the promise of security against the nomads and moved to arable land outside of the wall. Their settlement accepted Sartarite exiles, and won't be that different from the other farming communities in normal years.

In hunger years, a difference may be seen when the rubble-descended folk start preparing meals from inedible stuff.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

So, given that the Opili do manage to retake the fort eventually, I wonder what the survivors did in the interrim?  Where did they go?  Taking back the fort would take funds, and how were those raised?  How long did the trolls stay in Opili's fort?  Were the trolls lured out and dry gulched somehow?  It must be a pretty unusual occurrence for a rubble family to lose their fort after all.  I am guessing that survivors must have had a hidden escape tunnel or something.  The fact that the fort gets retaken suggests that the Opili had plans for such a contingency (and living in the Rubble of all places, who wouldn't?).

Opili is a horse folk name - Yarandros and Derik Pol Joni interacted with an Opili nation of horse nomads when Pavis was sealed in.

I would guess that the Opili may have been a branch of lesser Zebra nobility, not as important as the Arrowsmiths, but of similar descent. Refugees at the time of the troll conquest might have made it to kin at Zebra Fort. Depending on when exactly Opili's fort fell to Geras Kag (who seems to have made it his seat of power), some survivors might have joined the Pavis Survivors on the plains of Prax.

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37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Opili is a horse folk name - Yarandros and Derik Pol Joni interacted with an Opili nation of horse nomads when Pavis was sealed in.

I would guess that the Opili may have been a branch of lesser Zebra nobility, not as important as the Arrowsmiths, but of similar descent. Refugees at the time of the troll conquest might have made it to kin at Zebra Fort. Depending on when exactly Opili's fort fell to Geras Kag (who seems to have made it his seat of power), some survivors might have joined the Pavis Survivors on the plains of Prax.

And the Opili tribe (same name, not necessarily the same people) were in Garsting and Jarst as a Pentan offshoot vaguely tributary to Sheng Seleris in the Third and Fourth Wanes. So it probably is a meaningful, mythic, identity for horse peoples.

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On 11/13/2018 at 2:32 PM, Joerg said:

While a rubble family, they took advantage of the promise of security against the nomads and moved to arable land outside of the wall.

I'm not sure where you got the promise of security from. Dorasor had nomad allies, notably sable and zebra. Given the land was allodial, It looks like could hold their own. Likely, once their fortified settlement was built on the Scritha, they were clearly defending salt sources and this looks like a deal with the sables and zebras too (along with the other original allies, Sun county, Ginkizzie and Ingilli). See Pavis GTA.

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4 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm not sure where you got the promise of security from.

You brought that up listing the places as refuges. A refuge is a place promising security, in case of the rubble settlements through the maintained fortifications originally built by Opili Wallmaker. The settlement outside of the Rubble would struggle to provide a similar shelter.

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Dorasor had nomad allies, notably sable and zebra. Given the land was allodial, It looks like could hold their own. Likely, once their fortified settlement was built on the Scritha, they were clearly defending salt sources and this looks like a deal with the sables and zebras too (along with the other original allies, Sun county, Ginkizzie and Ingilli). See Pavis GTA.

 

The salt mine is in the Rubble, and nowhere near that settlement on the Scritha River. Sir Indagos is determined to reclaim the Rubble from the trolls for the Pavisites, in order to secure his assets there.

The Patroma personnel guarding the salt mines are Eddy the foul, his twin children and eight guardsmen. The troll contingent appears to be of similar size.

 

A personal pet peeve here: why are miners - a quite specialized profession requiring quite a bit of knowledge and some skill - is always delegated to slaves? While slaves are useful as porters and for providing lifting power, they suck at organizing and securing a mine.

Vertical mining as described in the Pavis salt mine might be done by slaves without risking too much of structural instability. Malicious compliance can cause a major cave in, though.

Hewing the salt from the ground is only part of the work - at least as grueling is the transport of the hewn blocks of salt to the surface. Is this the job of privileged captives?

Who builds and maintains the stairways leading down to the mine? Do human and troll miners coordinate the removal of inert material (feeding it to the trollkin?) and maintenance of wooden parts?

 

The text suggests that each worker hewing salt is supposed to produce enough salt to be piled up to his navel at the end of the shift. Setting aside the impracticability of leaving the product of the day shift to the rivalling night shift of the trolls, this assumes that each proficient salt hewer is producing salt slabs of about 0.25 square meters/yards or 2.5 square feet with a total thickness of 0.9 to 1.2 meters or 3 to 4 feet. With about 40 captives at work, and lets say 20 of them hewing salt and the rest hauling it upstairs, on an area 100 feet (30 meters) long and probably 20 feet (6 meters) wide, they will lower the floor by 1 meter within 36 days. With smaller salt blocks, that period might be up five times slower, but it still amounts to at least one meter per year (and shift). There will also be a lot of salt debris to be gathered (in baskets?) and carried up, probably to be sold as lick or drying agent to nomads in exchange for herd beast meat. The orderly cut out slabs will be for trade - with New Pavis, probably the Lunar garrison, and Sartar.

 

The mining equipment is neolithic rather than bronze age, corresponding to finds from Cordona salt mine in Spain rather than the bronze picks found in Hallstatt even from the Urnfield era.

 

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A personal pet peeve here: why are miners - a quite specialized profession requiring quite a bit of knowledge and some skill - is always delegated to slaves? While slaves are useful as porters and for providing lifting power, they suck at organizing and securing a mine.

Because mining is dangerous, working in a salt mine is bad for your joints, skin and lungs, salt miners die early. Slaves are more expendable than citizens. Also, slaves are cheap, all you need is food, drink, a place to sleep and a good whip, cuts down on costs.

Really, the best way to mine salt is to squirt water into seams and extract the brine. Zola Fel cultists could do that with their magic, or with Water Elementals.

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1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Because mining is dangerous, working in a salt mine is bad for your joints, skin and lungs, salt miners die early. Slaves are more expendable than citizens. Also, slaves are cheap, all you need is food, drink, a place to sleep and a good whip, cuts down on costs.

Slaves and captive criminals are cheap, inept, and slovenly. They are good for carrying the salt up the stairs, but getting a decent-sized block of salt out of the ground through dry mining is skilled labor. Putting up stairs and galleries and planning the mining operation is expert work. Coordinating that with the trolls is heroic level diplomacy.

The incidents of slave labor in salt mines I found all refer to wet leaching of the salt, extracting a saturated brine (of about one part salt and two parts water) which then was re-crystallized, using either free subtropical or tropical warmth, or lots of fuel and salt pans. This, too, requires at least highly skilled foremen. The slaves would do the heavy lifting and shoveling of fuel.

Miners may have had a slightly shorter life expectancy than lumberjacks, but probably a higher one than blue sea fishermen or whalers. The risk of death on the job used to be an inescapable fact of life in many professions.

The Bronze Age salt miners of Hallstatt were wealthy individuals with rather rich grave goods and high quality equipment (e.g in their well-preserved textiles). Yes, they worked hard, and they may have suffered some detrimental effects from working the salt, but there has been evidence for women (who - according to archaeological bone deformation findings - probably had the job of carrying the salt out of the mine) breast-feeding down in the mines (finds of baby clothing in the mining horizons).

A major hazard working in a salt mine are mass movements aka rock slides. With a certain (rather low) water content, halite will flow like a glacier and fill up man-made holes under the pressure of covering rock (or soil).

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Really, the best way to mine salt is to squirt water into seams and extract the brine. Zola Fel cultists could do that with their magic, or with Water Elementals.

The problem with wet mining is that you need to remove the water from the brine again. While the Praxian climate might allow for open air salt gardens to let wind and sun do Daga's work, the usual method requires fuel to boil the water out of the brine, usually in leaden pans. Good luck keeping such an operation running in the troll huntlands. What fuel are you going to use, anyway?

And the troll half of the Big Rubble operation will object to any method requiring fire, too. Although they might send in food trollkin to eat up the salt and then have them as pickles.

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On 11/18/2018 at 9:55 PM, soltakss said:

Because mining is dangerous, working in a salt mine is bad for your joints, skin and lungs, salt miners die early. Slaves are more expendable than citizens. Also, slaves are cheap, all you need is food, drink, a place to sleep and a good whip, cuts down on costs.

 

Also likely inspired by Greek and Roman slave-based mining, which was basically the worst job anyone could get anywhere and had a life expectancy of a few years.

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On 11/19/2018 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said:

A personal pet peeve here: why are miners - a quite specialized profession requiring quite a bit of knowledge and some skill - is always delegated to slaves? While slaves are useful as porters and for providing lifting power, they suck at organizing and securing a mine.

A fair question.  Delving into a bit of industrial history, there is strong evidence that slave labor was a staple in bot open cut and underground mining.  This is because mining is (a) dangerous, and (b) very labor intensive i.e. perfect for a somewhat disposable workforce like slaves.  You are quite correct in suggesting that miners are specialized professionals, if we are talking about mining engineers.  Those guys are jacks of all trades and masters of most too, but back in the bad old days of the iron and bronze ages, mining involved sending a malnourished boy slave into a hole in the ground with a small pick hammer and a sack, not even with a light source, and he would chip away until his sack was full, then he would haul it out.  We know that from the archaeology.  It was the role of the "miner" i.e. mining engineer, to assess whether the slaves were digging in the right areas to get ore, as often the slaves couldn't even tell what they were mining because candles cost money.  The other advantage was that slaves can be locked into a mine as a form of containment, and starved until they are docile if they want to rebel.  In short, don't see slaves as miners, but as mining equipment, as they did the grunt work that is done by mechanization today, while the "miners" from back then were effectively the mining engineers, whose job was to act as foreman and insure that the slave work crews are doing useful work.  I have done some work in the industry, and looked into its history, I hope that helps.

Next question, and more as an aside, I wonder what Dorasar's conditions of rulership were?

 

Edited by Darius West

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

A fair question.  Delving into a bit of industrial history, there is strong evidence that slave labor was a staple in bot open cut and underground mining.  This is because mining is (a) dangerous, and (b) very labor intensive i.e. perfect for a somewhat disposable workforce like slaves.  You are quite correct in suggesting that miners are specialized professionals, if we are talking about mining engineers.  Those guys are jacks of all trades and masters of most too, but back in the bad old days of the iron and bronze ages, mining involved sending a malnourished boy slave into a hole in the ground with a small pick hammer and a sack, not even with a light source, and he would chip away until his sack was full, then he would haul it out. 

Strangely, when I look at the flint mines on Bornholm or the great salt mines of Dürrnberg or Hallstatt, I find evidence of well-nourished and well-off miners, and none of starved and sick slaves, in the burials. That's Bronze Age and early Iron Age. True, about half of the contemporary burials were burnt rather than body graves, destroying much of the evidence anthropologists can read from bone remains, but the burnt burials usually had the richer grave goods, which should be a point against malnutrition and mistreatment of the mine workers. There have been found no mass graves of malnutritioned bodies deformed by hard mining work anywhere in Europe prior to way more modern times.

From what I have seen, most mining was done into the walls of the tunnels rather than on the floors, following the (more or less skewed) veins of ore in the rock. Again, this isn't the type of job you put disposable untrained folk that you don't mind being crushed when the rock layer above gives, if simply for the economic reason that getting the tunnel near the ore veins was a big ante up in man-hours and material that you didn't want to lose to ineptitude. Hauling out fallen dead rock rather than ore was a loss to the miners at all times.

There were jobs that did not require much expertise, like crewing the treadmills, pushing or pulling carts full of ore or rock, and similar duties. Those were done by whoever was available - often the wives and children of the miners, and their husbandry like dogs, goats, donkeys or ponies. All of which would get eaten at the end of their terms of serviceability. 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

We know that from the archaeology.  It was the role of the "miner" i.e. mining engineer, to assess whether the slaves were digging in the right areas to get ore, as often the slaves couldn't even tell what they were mining because candles cost money. 

Hew first, sort later? Hauling up all that dead rock for uncertain amounts of ore doesn't sound like a winning strategy.

Sure, you could use mining as a penal or death camp, and get some money out of that. I don't have any data on who implemented this, and where. Usually prisoners were not given instruments to dig tunnels, possibly for their escape. They may have been put into sun-less oubliettes for long times, possibly the rests of their lives, but normally confinement was a penalty only given to people you expected to be released at some future point of time, or people too popular (or too closely related) to execute right away.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The other advantage was that slaves can be locked into a mine as a form of containment, and starved until they are docile if they want to rebel.  In short, don't see slaves as miners, but as mining equipment, as they did the grunt work that is done by mechanization today, while the "miners" from back then were effectively the mining engineers, whose job was to act as foreman and insure that the slave work crews are doing useful work.  I have done some work in the industry, and looked into its history, I hope that helps.

Do you have chronologies for these kinds of activities? Like I said, the archaeological record north of the Alps for the Bronze Age appears to indicate a different situation, and likewise the establishment of German miners in early modern Age Norway etc.

Georg Agricola's treatise on mining doesn't mention slave work or intentured work force, but it shows children and all manner of draft beasts.

I am aware of slaves worked to their death e.g. in the first US gold rush east of the Rocky Mountains which saw lots of Native Americans enslaved and dying in the gold mines on their territories, or by totalitarian regimes in the 20th and 21st centuries (like the current Coltan mines in bandit-controlled parts of central Africa). The Western Pacific Railroad used up Chinese workers in tunnel building at similarly appalling rates as did Nazi Germany use up prisoners of war or civilian deportees to build those underground factories for the futile weapons of revenge.

My own experiences in the industry were mostly above ground, concerned with separating processing the mineral destined for sale from unusable material. As for the history of mining, I did read some Roman sources (mostly concerning water-ways, but involving tunnels anyway) and of course Georg Agricola, and a bit about the migration of German miners to virgin territories in the early Modern Age. From what I learned, the underground work required a companionship otherwise only found in squads and platoons in the military. It is hard to instill such a spirit in disposable slaves.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Next question, and more as an aside, I wonder what Dorasar's conditions of rulership were?

Dorasar had to renew all those alliances and concessions won by Pavis seven centuries earlier. He had been a trainee of Sarotar, the most heroic of the descendants of Sartar (in the words of Tarkalor, a contender for that acclamation) during his adventures in Esrolia, and IMO earlier than that in Pavis after news of the Dragonewts Dream event breaking the troll seals on the Rubble. Given the education as builders all dynastic heirs of Sartar apparently had to undergo, he would have been more than qualified to convince the Flintnail cult to cooperate. Some heroquesting lessons from Belintar's Holy Country may have been in the mix, too, possibly even a Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death with a good minor victory and no critical loss to the winner.

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14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Strangely, when I look at the flint mines on Bornholm or the great salt mines of Dürrnberg or Hallstatt, I find evidence of well-nourished and well-off miners, and none of starved and sick slaves, in the burials. That's Bronze Age and early Iron Age. True, about half of the contemporary burials were burnt rather than body graves, destroying much of the evidence anthropologists can read from bone remains, but the burnt burials usually had the richer grave goods, which should be a point against malnutrition and mistreatment of the mine workers. There have been found no mass graves of malnutritioned bodies deformed by hard mining work anywhere in Europe prior to way more modern times.

It is generally agreed that slavery was rare in neolithic times, but as of the beginning of urbanization the institution of slavery takes off rapidly, and is common throughout the fertile crescent and well beyond.  As far as there being a lack of European slavery, well, Greece is in Europe, and there have definitely been Greek mine slaves found by archaeologists that go back to the Bronze age.  I am not suggesting that it is impossible to run a mine without using malnourished slaves, it is just less profitable for a single owner whose primary concern is profit not the welfare of the workers.  Certainly this was the model that the Romans adopted.  

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

 Hew first, sort later? Hauling up all that dead rock for uncertain amounts of ore doesn't sound like a winning strategy.

Sure, you could use mining as a penal or death camp, and get some money out of that. I don't have any data on who implemented this, and where. Usually prisoners were not given instruments to dig tunnels, possibly for their escape. They may have been put into sun-less oubliettes for long times, possibly the rests of their lives, but normally confinement was a penalty only given to people you expected to be released at some future point of time, or people too popular (or too closely related) to execute right away.

Even with modern methods, a lot of mining is basically informed guess-work.  If you know that a certain body of rock is running at X per ton, and you can see the reef continues, then there is a good chance you can keep digging and get the same results, but if the reef taps out a miner has some hard questions to ask about stratigraphy and if they feel lucky.  Whatever the case, only a very stupid miner will not remove what you call the "dead rock", as it merely blocks up the works.  Ideally a miner wants there to be ore in the rock, but often they can't tell until they have done their assay, and no rock is "dead" until that has been done.  In short, you will have to dig through plenty of dead rock to get at ore, and that dead rock has to come out too.

As to what sort of slaves worked in mines, the preference was for males and there was a need to have some strong workers who could cut the primary tunnels, and also very small workers i.e. boys, who would be sent into ever smaller shafts and adits chasing veins of ore.  Life expectancy was poor, and mining was seen as a death sentence for disobedient slaves, much like rowing on galleys.  As to giving the prisoners tools to allow their escape, obviously the tools were collected at the end of every shift, and the slaves were kept malnourished so they couldn't fight back effectively.  Most of the work was done with a hammer and chisel, not with picks, so the short hammers wouldn't be a match for a properly armed guard.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do you have chronologies for these kinds of activities? Like I said, the archaeological record north of the Alps for the Bronze Age appears to indicate a different situation, and likewise the establishment of German miners in early modern Age Norway etc.  Georg Agricola's treatise on mining doesn't mention slave work or intentured work force, but it shows children and all manner of draft beasts.I am aware of slaves worked to their death e.g. in the first US gold rush east of the Rocky Mountains which saw lots of Native Americans enslaved and dying in the gold mines on their territories, or by totalitarian regimes in the 20th and 21st centuries (like the current Coltan mines in bandit-controlled parts of central Africa). The Western Pacific Railroad used up Chinese workers in tunnel building at similarly appalling rates as did Nazi Germany use up prisoners of war or civilian deportees to build those underground factories for the futile weapons of revenge.

I don't have an easy chronology to hand, and most of what I have found is in snippets across a series of quite different works, even including Greek poetry.  I think it is fair to say that the Celtic and Germanic peoples weren't enthusiastic slavers like the Mediterraneans, and this is born out when the Volkswanderung hit the Roman Empire, and normally allowed slaves to join them and be free.  As to Georg Agricola, he's really a Renaissance metallurgist and mineralogist, and my understanding is that mining was a largely guilded occupation by then in Germany.  We both know that mining doesn't have to be a form of hellish punishment, but if one has "surplus enemy population" it is one way of exploiting them while also genociding them.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dorasar had to renew all those alliances and concessions won by Pavis seven centuries earlier. He had been a trainee of Sarotar, the most heroic of the descendants of Sartar (in the words of Tarkalor, a contender for that acclamation) during his adventures in Esrolia, and IMO earlier than that in Pavis after news of the Dragonewts Dream event breaking the troll seals on the Rubble. Given the education as builders all dynastic heirs of Sartar apparently had to undergo, he would have been more than qualified to convince the Flintnail cult to cooperate. Some heroquesting lessons from Belintar's Holy Country may have been in the mix, too, possibly even a Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death with a good minor victory and no critical loss to the winner.

IDK, it sounds like it might have been a lot more specific and potentially legalistic requirement or series of requirements.  Winning over the forts, the Mostali and the Aldryami would have been a good start politically as you suggest.  I am inclined to think that if there is a hero quest involved, it is probably Pavis' hero quest of "Asrelia's Bounty" where he would go into the underworld during Sacred Time through the Puzzle Canal and return with a barge-load of food from Asrelia.  I would imagine Dorasar could do that too, but there is nothing to say that he did.  I can't imagine a member of Sartar's household wanting to prop up Belintar's longevity by renewing his body though.  A pity we have so little to go on.

Edited by Darius West

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8 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is generally agreed that slavery was rare in neolithic times, but as of the beginning of urbanization the institution of slavery takes off rapidly, and is common throughout the fertile crescent and well beyond. 

So urbanization and slavery go hand in hand, and mistreatment of slaves too?

The early copper smelters of Canaan with their wind-powered kilns don't appear to have been low status, and neither is there any evidence that the cypriots managed their mines with slaves.

Likewise, the quarries in Egypt were managed and labored on by well-regarded and well-fed specialists, not slaves, and the tractor teams for the mud sleds at the actual building site were well-respected freeman workers (and specialists), too.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

As far as there being a lack of European slavery, well, Greece is in Europe, and there have definitely been Greek mine slaves found by archaeologists that go back to the Bronze age. 

Were these slaves worked to death? There is little evidence for the greek landholders to work their agricultural slaves to death, so why the mining slaves?

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am not suggesting that it is impossible to run a mine without using malnourished slaves, it is just less profitable for a single owner whose primary concern is profit not the welfare of the workers.  Certainly this was the model that the Romans adopted.  

As long as expert foremen and hewers ensure the security of the mine, yes.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Even with modern methods, a lot of mining is basically informed guess-work.  If you know that a certain body of rock is running at X per ton, and you can see the reef continues, then there is a good chance you can keep digging and get the same results, but if the reef taps out a miner has some hard questions to ask about stratigraphy and if they feel lucky. 

 

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Whatever the case, only a very stupid miner will not remove what you call the "dead rock", as it merely blocks up the works. 

I was talking about removing huge amounts of collapsed structure to return to a cut off mother lode because disposable slaves disposed of themselves and months of labor and use of firewood in a careless or exhausted accident. That's not economical.

Even in strip mining (e.g. for gold dust), miners avoid fruitless removal of dead rock because of the unpaid effort.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Ideally a miner wants there to be ore in the rock, but often they can't tell until they have done their assay, and no rock is "dead" until that has been done.  In short, you will have to dig through plenty of dead rock to get at ore, and that dead rock has to come out too.

From what I have seen from modern amateur gambler gold diggers, you may be right - they rarely appear to apply scientific methods to get some telemetry for the geology beneath them.

During my stint in the mineral refining business in Norway, I also met a professional prospector, a proper mineralogist who entertained me with stories of his travels e.g. in the Andes looking out for signs of valuable mineral deposits while doing a survey on known pure quartz deposits around the refinery I worked for, where I served as translator (as a break from my normal lab duty in quality control).

 

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to what sort of slaves worked in mines, the preference was for males and there was a need to have some strong workers who could cut the primary tunnels, and also very small workers i.e. boys, who would be sent into ever smaller shafts and adits chasing veins of ore.  Life expectancy was poor, and mining was seen as a death sentence for disobedient slaves, much like rowing on galleys. 

So these are Roman methods?

The lesson I took from the history of the Roman Empire was that their conquests were pretty much were tied to getting control over native mining in neighboring "barbarian" realms. This was true for the conquests of the Macedons, Gallia, the Noricum, the Dacians, and probably other places in the Near East.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to giving the prisoners tools to allow their escape, obviously the tools were collected at the end of every shift, and the slaves were kept malnourished so they couldn't fight back effectively.  Most of the work was done with a hammer and chisel, not with picks, so the short hammers wouldn't be a match for a properly armed guard.

Unless these slaves were cheaper than dogs or similar small husbandry, I don't quite see the profit in using up workforce you had to buy this way, when you could treat under-privileged plebeians in a similar inhuman way.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't have an easy chronology to hand, and most of what I have found is in snippets across a series of quite different works, even including Greek poetry.  I think it is fair to say that the Celtic and Germanic peoples weren't enthusiastic slavers like the Mediterraneans, and this is born out when the Volkswanderung hit the Roman Empire, and normally allowed slaves to join them and be free. 

Whenever the Germanic tribes took over a Roman province (other than Britannia), they usually installed themselves as a warrior nobility, leaving the old Roman methods for managing land and mines with armies of slaves mostly unchanged while assimilating to the language and the culture.

 

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to Georg Agricola, he's really a Renaissance metallurgist and mineralogist, and my understanding is that mining was a largely guilded occupation by then in Germany. 

Every economic endeavor that required some knowledge or networking was guilded in the Middle Ages.

The methods observed and collected by Agricola are the summary of the last 300 years of mining, if not even longer. His illusrations and descriptions describe a status quo, not a future development.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

We both know that mining doesn't have to be a form of hellish punishment, but if one has "surplus enemy population" it is one way of exploiting them while also genociding them.

Even when captured in official warfare, those slaves don't come without an economical investment by the end user.

 

Dorasar:

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

IDK, it sounds like it might have been a lot more specific and potentially legalistic requirement or series of requirements.  Winning over the forts, the Mostali and the Aldryami would have been a good start politically as you suggest.  I am inclined to think that if there is a hero quest involved, it is probably Pavis' hero quest of "Asrelia's Bounty" where he would go into the underworld during Sacred Time through the Puzzle Canal and return with a barge-load of food from Asrelia.  I would imagine Dorasar could do that too, but there is nothing to say that he did. 

Dorasar founded New Pavis in a period of aggressive mourning full of bitterness against the Grandmothers of Esroila, which would make his exposure to an Asrelia heroquest quite a strange.

 

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

I can't imagine a member of Sartar's household wanting to prop up Belintar's longevity by renewing his body though.  A pity we have so little to go on.

I seem to recall a text claiming that Salinarg was chosen as other members of the House of Sartar (Terasarin's children?) were in the Holy Country at the time, presumably involved in a Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death. Possibly an early version of what ended up in King of Sartar, taken from one of the Son of Sartar installments.

I am unsure how much hostility there was between Belintar and the House of Sartar. Certain individuals were frequent visitors in the Holy Country. Sarotar and Dorasar spent up to six years on and off in Nochet, and it looks like Dorasar contributed to the assassination conflict (Theyalan dart competition) with the house of Bruvala before setting off to return to the Big Rubble and found the city of New Pavis. Tarkalor's feud with the Kitori and his establishment of the Sun Domers just north of the Crossline, in Kitori territory, and his aid to the Volsaxi will have been seen as hostile.

Several members of the house of Sartar were assassinated (by Lunars) in the Holy Country - Saraskos and his children in 1587, Terasarin's children at an unknown date (possibly 1603-1604). Temertain doesn't appear to have any surviving siblings or cousins, although it is likely that there were a few prior to the hunt for members of Sartar's family.

 

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