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Darius West

THE SORCERY RULES YOU NEED TO REMEMBER FOR RQ:RiG !

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12 hours ago, davecake said:

To be honest, not only do I ignore the rule about spirit magic reducing Free INT, but I generally remove the whole idea of Free INT. I'm not really sure what it adds to the game any more. Even once you take it away, sorcerers are still quite limited as magicians, generally slow casters, and going through so many magic points, and so on. 

I am not sure I agree with Darius that you can always translate a spell into your best language once you know it. I tend to think that sorcery is a bit more 'intimate' with language than that (like eg kabbala), and might be difficult to easily translate. 

I find Enhance INT quite an oddity. Its existence as written without the rules would imply that Fire sorcerers are notably more capable than other sorcerers. Yet I don't remember a single mention of a Fire sorcerer, or Fire sorcerer, tradition in all Gloranthan writing about sorcerers, which would imply that they aren't particularly remarkable. I'm inclined to say that Enhance INT does not Enhance INT for spell casting purposes, just to avoid the potentially quite unbalancing rules issue. Or at least, not give any of my players the spell. 

To clarify what I meant, IF you are capable of understanding a sorcery spell written in another language (and that's a big IF), then you have already translated it into your own language.  Think about it.  This is the way humans think.  For example if know enough Spanish to decipher a spell from the Picatrix (a famous Spanish grimoire), in my head I won't be thinking in Spanish, as it isn't my first language, and nor will I cast it in Spanish if I have properly understood it.  I will take notes on it in English, write my queries in English, and ultimately cast it in English.  Why?  Because I handle more complex concepts in my first language.  Seriously, the sorcery rules are punitive enough.

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8 hours ago, Thyrwyn said:

It is quite possible to be able to read a language you can neither speak nor understand when spoken. This was the point of the Chinese system of writing - it allowed understandable communication across a vast empire even between individuals that shared no spoken language. The meanings of the characters could be taught to anyone, regardless of their spoken language or the sounds of the words, because the characters do not correspond to sounds. 

Even today, you can learn to read and write Latin without having the remotest possibility of understanding a word an actual Roman citizen might have said  

My wife used to work with a guy who can read and write Russian, Hebrew, Greek, and Ancient Greek without being able to speak a lick in any of them. 

There's a huge, huge difference between being able to pronounce the words and knowing what they mean, when it comes to manipulating magical power. I reckon.

Pictographic forms of writing are, to an extent, different, because they do, indeed, convey the meaning directly, and you pronounce a given pictograph differently in different languages. But that just opens a different can of worms: what if the actual sounds matter as well as  the meaning? So you have to have the ability to read the script and speak the language of the writer (and know what that is, if the script is common across many languages).

I can read 'roman' script, but there are languages that twist how that script is pronounced away from how I'd pronounce it with "the Queen's" English as my first language: if I don't know whether something's written in Scots or Irish Gaelic (languages I speak only a single word of at best: 'Cheers!'), I won't know the pronunciation of some of the thorns. Even French (my 'best', FWIW second language), can be read entirely 'wrong' by an English speaker who isn't familiar with the language: the french word for wine: "Vinn" or "van"? And in Latin, is 'v' pronounced as I would, or like a 'w'? As it's a dead language, opinons wary. :)

Getting new spells from old documents shouldn't be easy. That's part of the challenge of Sorcery: the hunt for and deciphering of occult (as in 'hidden') knowledge.

The Read/Write section has a box on scripts. There's probably material to be used, there.

Edited by womble

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5 minutes ago, womble said:

The Read/Write section has a box on scripts. There's probably material to be used, there.

That section describes a script specifically for magical writing, actually!

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15 hours ago, davecake said:

To be honest, not only do I ignore the rule about spirit magic reducing Free INT, but I generally remove the whole idea of Free INT. I'm not really sure what it adds to the game any more. Even once you take it away, sorcerers are still quite limited as magicians, generally slow casters, and going through so many magic points, and so on. 

 

I'd strongly recommend keeping the rule where INT acts as a cap on how many MP a sorcerer can pump into intensifying a spell. Otherwise they're only really limited by available MP, and can abuse their uniquely long durations/ranges even harder than they currently can.

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55 minutes ago, Scott A said:

I'd strongly recommend keeping the rule where INT acts as a cap on how many MP a sorcerer can pump into intensifying a spell.

I read him as meaning "just use INT, not Free INT". Personally I liked Sandy's system, where you could cast 1 point per 10% of skill, or something like that.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

If you are a *real* sorcerer, residing in an ivory tower and spending your days meditating on the cosmic laws of the universe and reading texts, why on earth are you concerned about access to quick healing? 

Say that again when the barbarians kick down your door and have at you with their dagger axes.  Or when you trip on your hem and take an undignified tumble down your ivory spiral staircase and don't want to spend 6 weeks recovering.  Or when you spill your boiling soup in your lap.  Or when the critter you are sizing up in the lab escapes and bites you repeatedly.  Sorcery is a dangerous profession and you will NEVER survive to be an old man with a long white beard with such an impractical attitude. 

Mend Flesh is a simply terrible spell, you don't get back anywhere near an even return of MP to HP.  Accelerate Healing is similarly terrible, as you need those hitpoints NOW not in a week.  Healing magic is an absolute necessity for any Gloranthan who might find themselves in harm's way.  Now given that every sorcerer has a genius level intelligence out of sheer bloody minded necessity, they would be able to reason that fact out. 

Currently to get Mend Flesh into play as an effective spell would take years and is still a useless waste of MP when compared to Healing 6, and you will be dead from another hit before the 16 SR you will need to get 2d6 healing comes off, and even if you aren't you may well have spent 8MP to heal 2 or 3 damage, and you could easily do that multiple times, and run out of MP without reattaching your limb with the crucial 6 points of healing.  On average you will get 7hp back, but averages don't always arrive in a timely fashion.  The spirit magic spell is faster and far more reliable, which is the exact opposite of what should be the case.  Sorcery is supposed to be efficient and intelligent, not wasteful.

Edited by Rick Meints
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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sorcery is supposed to be efficient and intelligent, not wasteful.

When was sorcery ever efficient?

Edited by Rick Meints
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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Sorcery is supposed to be efficient and intelligent, not wasteful and retarded.

What Jeff said is that it's a compromise that you have to make and that different types of sorcerers will make different choices. The one in his tower might prefer more free INT, while the wandering one might prefer to have Spirit Magic healing (and less free INT). Having to make compromises is a good thing IMO, and the intelligent sorcerer will make appropriate choices.

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You're all hedging around the problem and finding excuses for something that has no basis in being a rule.

11 hours ago, drablak said:

What Jeff said is that it's a compromise that you have to make and that different types of sorcerers will make different choices. The one in his tower might prefer more free INT, while the wandering one might prefer to have Spirit Magic healing (and less free INT). Having to make compromises is a good thing IMO, and the intelligent sorcerer will make appropriate choices.

We still have the problem that somehow, for reasons that make no sense, Spirit magic subtracts from Free Int when it is stored in Charisma now.  Why does it subtract from Free INT?  Not for any legitimate reason.  Merely because that's the way it worked in RQ3.  It is an obsolete rule that has no place in the present edition.  It is hard enough to get value out of sorcery without having this ridiculous drag on your abilities.  Now if you are playing a Brithini who has major restrictions against knowing non-Malkioni magic, then I can understand it.  You don't want to compromise your precious immortality.  For everyone else, the mortal Malkioni, it makes no sense not to have Spirit Magic.  Spirit magic, is, after all, also known as Common Magic, and constitutes household charms and so forth.

10 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

There are always Magical items with Matrices. They are more than common enough that a sorcerer might have a Heal 2 or more on an earring or belt buckle or what have you.

And how much does a matrix cost vs how much a spell costs?  It's a false economy.  Plus the sorcerer would then have to learn how to make the Spirit Spell matrix.  And as if he doesn't already have enough to spend his POW on?  

9 hours ago, drablak said:

Or simply be part of a group of adventurers with someone who has healing.

  The party he will join will be full of other Malkioni who will be in the same exact boat as the sorcerer, and will be looking to the sorcerer for magical support.  Not an answer.

7 hours ago, womble said:

Or cast Ward Against Weapons at sufficiently high level that there's no way a lab animal could hurt you...

Or he could buy a cage.  Oh wait, he already did. This really isn't the point and doesn't solve the problem. Ward against Weapons is a great spell, but would you really spec into Death and Dispel early in character development to get it?  The other thing is, if the hit scores more damage than the Strength of the Spell, the spell fails.  So if the critter bites you properly, you're still a gonner.  For example, a starting sorcerer has 3 spells, meaning his Free INT assuming it starts at 18 will be down to 15, so 7 pts of armor for 1 day is about the best that can be done.  Thus a 9pt hit has a 60% chance of dispelling your Ward.  Not great odds.

 

I am not suggesting that sorcery needs to be crazy tough, it just needs to be competitive.  The rule in question makes the task much harder, and for no good reason. 

Edited by Darius West
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5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

You're all hedging around the problem and finding excuses for something that has no basis in being a rule.

We still have the problem that somehow, for reasons that make no sense, Spirit magic subtracts from Free Int when it is stored in Charisma now.  Why does it subtract from Free INT?  Not for any legitimate reason.  Merely because that's the way it worked in RQ3.  It is an obsolete rule that has no place in the present edition.  It is hard enough to get value out of sorcery without having this ridiculous drag on your abilities.  Now if you are playing a Brithini who has major restrictions against knowing non-Malkioni magic, then I can understand it.  You don't want to compromise your precious immortality.  For everyone else, the mortal Malkioni, it makes no sense not to have Spirit Magic.  Spirit magic, is, after all, also known as Common Magic, and constitutes household charms and so forth.

And how much does a matrix cost vs how much a spell costs?  It's a false economy.  Plus the sorcerer would then have to learn how to make the Spirit Spell matrix.  And as if he doesn't already have enough to spend his POW on?  

  The party he will join will be full of other Malkioni who will be in the same exact boat as the sorcerer, and will be looking to the sorcerer for magical support.  Not an answer.

Or he could buy a cage.  Oh wait, he already did. This really isn't the point and doesn't solve the problem. Ward against Weapons is a great spell, but would you really spec into Death and Dispel early in character development to get it?  The other thing is, if the hit scores more damage than the Strength of the Spell, the spell fails.  So if the critter bites you properly, you're still a gonner.  For example, a starting sorcerer has 3 spells, meaning his Free INT assuming it starts at 18 will be down to 15, so 7 pts of armor for 1 day is about the best that can be done.  Thus a 9pt hit has a 60% chance of dispelling your Ward.  Not great odds.

 

I am not suggesting that sorcery needs to be crazy tough, it just needs to be competitive.  The rule in question makes the task much harder, and for no good reason. 

Of course there is a basis for the rule. One's limit for spirit magic is based on one's CHA; however, possession of spirit magic (a fundamentally irrational form of magic) impedes one's ability to reduce the world to essential abstractions which are then logical manipulated. Thus each point of spirit magic serves to reduce the maximum possible manipulation of sorcery. 

Yes, it does put a single sorcerer-adventurer at a comparative disadvantage on adventures in Dragon Pass - especially if they are trying to compete with in the same eco-system as their Rune Magic+Spirit Magic using colleagues. But then again, the sorcerers in Dragon Pass are mainly Lhankor Mhy scholars - they are using sorcery for information gathering purposes, like Geomancy or Reveal Rune (which are definitely cooler than Detect Whatever spirit magic spells).

Your complaint seems to be that being a sorcerer in an all Malkioni adventuring party isn't that much fun. Since we haven't published any material for running RQ in the West, there really isn't much of a basis for that complaint. Keep in mind, even among the Rokari, horali orders use spirit magic and many even use Rune magic. But that aside, any wizard that runs around in a small party of adventurers trying to fight "critters" unaccompanied by a small army of expendable horali gets what he deserves.

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17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I read him as meaning "just use INT, not Free INT".

Yes, I meant just use INT=Free INT. Or perhaps, as I am wary of the potential of the Enhance INT spell, Free INT = Unenhanced INT. 

I don't like spirit magic reducing your Free INT for spellcasting ability because spirit magic is now based on CHA, and because it means literally that spending years learning sorcery literally makes you a worse magician for most practical purposes. 

I dislike Sorcery spells in mind reducing your Free INT because it means sorcery, which is supposed to be 'what you know', becomes 'stuff you sort of know, but not right now' and practically becomes far more about 'stuff you have' than any other magic system. 

Inscriptions are still very useful as a way to work around the limits of your INT, in a much more balanced way than Enhance INT. 

I also run with multiple spells learnable as part of a single 'grimoire' skill. And I currently just ignore Techniques, because adding that much complexity to the game just so sorcerer who already have spells costing far more magic points than others can sometimes double that seems far too much complexity for a very dull payoff. 

I'm still not really happy with how Duration dominates the game (who knew that the 'spells and spreadsheets' factor was the bit of RQ3 that was going to be the bit that needed to be kept? Didn't see that coming), but I have yet to find a solution I like while still keeping some level of compatibility with the base RQG spells descriptions etc. RQG seems to have adopted Sandys shamanism rules from the late 90s pretty much wholesale (and while I think they could be better integrated with the Spirit cult/tradition rules, they are great), and by the sounds of it will adopt some ideas from Sandys 1990s sorcery rules (sorcerous sect vows, for example), but not taken up any of his suggestions to replace Duration as a mechanic. Can't have everything. 

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In my noodling about with a Sorcerer NPC, Enhance INT isn't too much of an issue. Since it takes 4 additional points of Intensity to add a point of Free INT, and you'll have to recharge all the MP batteries you emptied casting it before you can use it, so can't really cast it at short duration for higher Intensity (unless you've got mondo MP reserves, at which point the power level is raised, so a bit more Free INT isn't unacceptable), I don't think it shoves balance over to the Sorceror too far.

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On 12/12/2018 at 4:17 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Mostly it's the system of vows, they give a great indication of how the different sects view the world and their ideals of behaviour.

I guess I never got that sensation when I read the text. My reading was "here's a list of different taboos some sorcerers do or don't take." *shrug*

On 12/12/2018 at 4:19 AM, Jeff said:

If you are a *real* sorcerer, residing in an ivory tower and spending your days meditating on the cosmic laws of the universe and reading texts, why on earth are you concerned about access to quick healing?

Because standard-issue wizardly paranoia? I also personally struggle to imagine the "professor" wizard engaging in the primary RQG activity of adventuring. If you're at a place where you're not worried about injury, you're probably not engaging in that sort of risk-taking behavior consistently.

On 12/12/2018 at 4:19 AM, Jeff said:

However, your raw ability to rationally manipulate magic is based on your INT, nor your skill in any specific spell.

I know this is going to be an "agree to disagree" place, but... My feelings on the matter is that improving a sorcery spell is learning a skill like geometry or physics. At first, you have simple force diagrams algebraically describing how to build your catapult, and as you learn more you become faster at these simple tasks as well as learning to perform more complex applications of the same principles. This is like building up to fluid dynamics and differential calculus. This knowledge is intensely rational in the mechanistic way I understand Gloranthan sorcerers to be focused on logic and rationality. Yet, it's not grounded in the individual physicist or engineer's inherent INT, but rather is a skill developed through practice and experience.

My contribution to the matter, for what it's worth. :)

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

We still have the problem that somehow, for reasons that make no sense, Spirit magic subtracts from Free Int when it is stored in Charisma now.

I agree that this feels incoherent to me. I also agree with @Jeff that sorcerers should have a mechanical disincentive to push them away from spirit magic. I'm not sure how to resolve these issues. Apart from your dislike of the "spirit magic reduces Free INT" rule, what are your thoughts on sorcerers using magic come from spirits and fetishes? Do you have an idea for alternative disincentives?

A thought that pops into my mind is sorcery "cantrips." Basically, developing a spell to operate on similar grounds to spirit magic/common magic. The comparison I have in mind is like a programmer using a subroutine and being able to say "run subroutine X" (or whatever, I don't actually know any programming) instead of writing all the code for a known process in that moment. I see sorcery spells in RQG as writing all that code. But maybe a sorcerer or wizard could develop "shortcut" spells for emergencies? Like spirit magic, but rolling on INTx5 instead of POWx5?

Hm. I actually really like that idea. Maybe at a higher MP cost per point of effect (so Cantrip Mend Flesh 1=2MP & 2SR to cast) and requiring each sorcerer to spend downtime up in the tower devising their own shortcut, just like each sorcerer needs to make their own Inscriptions. I can see a Cantrip like this working against Free INT, since it's INT-based (not CHA-based), but being able to get Meditate-stored as usual. So the sorcerer pulls up their cantrips before adventuring, and sets them aside when not.

I'm still not sure how to disincentivize spirit magic or Rune magic in this schema. And of course, this is just thinking out loud.

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3 hours ago, Crel said:

I agree that this feels incoherent to me. I also agree with @Jeff that sorcerers should have a mechanical disincentive to push them away from spirit magic. I'm not sure how to resolve these issues. Apart from your dislike of the "spirit magic reduces Free INT" rule, what are your thoughts on sorcerers using magic come from spirits and fetishes? Do you have an idea for alternative disincentives?

Well, the fact is that Sorcerers can interact with spirits, just the same as anyone else can.  There is even the Bind Spirit and Bind Elemental spell.  Of course they have to be able to summon and dominate them too.  That means that they need to learn 3 spells to do what a shaman does with 1 and innate abilities in order to interact reliably with even a single comparatively weak spirit, and the MP cost will be immense, coming in at around 45 points.

But lets put the shoe on the other foot here... 

Shamans can belong to cults that grant them theistic magic.  What disincentives do they get for that?  It does make them even more raucously powerful after all, when they are already pretty ridiculously over-powered and don't even have the Dex x5 penalty on mundane skills anymore.

It might be possible to scale a mildly increasing scale using the RQ3 sorcerer development levels of student, apprentice, adept, magus, and possibly adding a 5th definition for sorcerous hero questers, but why is it so very necessary?  Theists and shamans don't get penalized in this fashion.  Equal rights for sorcerers!

The great strength of RQ is that it doesn't create classes per-se, and it doesn't cap, balance, or penalize classes the way D&D is philosophically forced to, because it isn't bound to an arbitrary leveling mechanic.  I say this with the caveat of the treatment of sorcery in RQ.  Clearly there is bias afoot that the more common philosophies of theism and shamanism don't suffer.  Sorcery has always been the neglected "third option". I just want to see rules that turn them into playable characters, not the useless baggage they have been since RQ3.

Personally I have only ever played 1 sorcerer character, but I have always been struck by how under-powered they are; how they struggled to even become middling proficient in even a single spell, and that spell wasn't even all that good most of the time.  Most of the time I GM, and most of my personal characters have come from theist backgrounds. And why would it be any different if it is next to impossible to play a sorcerer? 

The rules for sorcery are already very complex, so that a beginner would be pretty taxed to come to terms with them.  Presently a sorcerer is a one trick pony, and most of the time, the trick isn't even worth the training and investment.  This isn't in keeping with a magical tradition that has dominated 1/3 of Genertela and has previously dominated the world.  How could they do that if the rules don't reflect the possibility of them even being comparably competent?  Presently, with the rules as they are, there is no way the Malkioni could control their territory in the face of concerted theist or shamanic aggression.  Their spells are simply too MP expensive to cast, meaning you get 1 per day, perhaps.  

Now the new rules have gone some way towards rectifying this with the Runes.  That is a good step, and I am not against the notion of Free INT controlling the upper limit of their spell manipulation.  What I am against is the notion that a spell caster that is already limited by their own magic (i.e. sorcery spells limit your Free INT), needs to be penalized for spells that they store in their CHA that are effectively common magic, known and used in all cultures. 

Don't even get me started on all the POW sorcerers have to spend on things though.

Edited by Darius West
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8 hours ago, Darius West said:

You're all hedging around the problem and finding excuses for something that has no basis in being a rule

You seem to be looking for our blessing to houserule free INT away. You have it. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't use it, it's your game.

Jeff has given you a rational for it ("possession of spirit magic (a fundamentally irrational form of magic) impedes one's ability to reduce the world to essential abstractions which are then logical manipulated"), and a game balance reason (it's a compromise if you want both sorcery and spirit magic). It's totally ok if you're not buying any of it, just rule it differently in your game. If you want a group of scholars with no henchmen to be able to walk around in dangerous country, make it so. If you want our opinion on an alternative rule, propose something and we'll discuss it gladly.

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Shamen are Rune Master level characters, on par with Rune Priests or Rune Lords.  They aren't equivalent to starting sorcerers any more than an assistant shaman is. It's true that there's currently no Rune Master level of status that a pure sorcerer can aspire to, but that's not really a balance concern, and will presumably show up in future supplements and/or fan material.

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At present, the only Sorcerers that are actually detailed enough to play RAW out of the book are Lhankor Mhy sages, which work more than ok in my book. I mean, have you *looked* at Logician? It's crazy good!

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2 hours ago, Scott A said:

At present, the only Sorcerers that are actually detailed enough to play RAW out of the book are Lhankor Mhy sages, which work more than ok in my book. I mean, have you *looked* at Logician? It's crazy good!

I just ginned up one of these using Phil Hibbs excellent character generation spreadsheet

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7647-rqg-character-creation-spreadsheet/

He's got ho-hum stats, but looks pretty useful as a starting character, and that's with going as 'sword sage' as I could (mostly because he doesn't need to be good at Lores, due to Logician being, as Scott says 'crazy good'). You need to be using a chargen system that lets you get INT 18 (or better) and probably have Fire as your best Rune, natch. At least ENC doesn't penalise your casting chance 1-for-1 like it did in RQ3 (where ENC values were also higher, at least for armour). He can put out a decent Ward Against Weapons, and his Boon of Kargan Tor is limited by MP. He can pop anti-Befuddles all day. Can't cast Enhance INT yet (no Fire Rune) but can build his own MP stores to work past that bottleneck. And he's an Alchemist (for whatever that turns out to be worth... I'm thinking POW restore potions). Given the amount of Downtime assumed in the base setting, he could be extremely potent in a couple of years.

Take Logician. Apply it to Battle... Win all skirmishes (or bigger). Ever. SuperGeneral! All opposition fall for your subtle stratagems. All Generals should be Sorcerors with this spell. 'S probably what made Tatius so good (until Dragon, obv).

Yes, he's got lots of choices about where to spend his POW gains (I'm sure there will be a page or two about how POW increases are the key to pacing character development in the GM's Guide): he needs to swap a MP Enchant for a Matrix of Matrix Creation Enchant so he can have some 'primitive' Spirit Magic for pinch situations, and he can Inscribe or sac for Rune Points, or build bigger MP stores, or learn more Runes or techniques, but looking from a player's point of view, I think those are choices: they're all good; I just have to decide which one I need 'next'. And they might not all always be available, so having choices is good.

What stands out to me as a bit odd, though, is that I really don't give two hoots about the size of his Magic Skill Category Bonus. All the other factors are just so much more significant.

Also, his 'tactical' Sorcery options are constrained by MP supply, not Free INT. So a few points of Spirit Magic wouldn't actually crimp his style in a mosh. Then all he needs is that Matrix Creation Matrix. And he's got currency to buy them with: everybody needs MP stores, and it's soulforce for soulforce.

 

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3 hours ago, womble said:

. 'S probably what made Tatius so good

Tatius was a good ritual and research magician, well steeped in Imperial Lunar intrigue, so chaotic that he almost made his own glowspoit, and a lousy general whose only virtue was to maximize casualties of his own troops. For ritual purposes, mind you, but that's his track record.

If you were a soldier, you preferred to march for Fazzur, who conserved his troop strength for the next phase of his campaign, rather than for Tatius who might decide at any time that you and your unit would make the next ritual suicide attack.

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