Should Second Sight allow the caster to see the Spirit World?

[EpicureanDM]

It's name is so misleading. I've had to explain to three different players that it doesn't let them see spirits or the Spirit World.

I'm probably going to houserule it to allow it to see into the Spirit World at the cost of making the caster a little more interesting or noticeable to spirits in the area. It doesn't move the caster into the Spirit World, so antagonistic spirits would still need to materialize before getting frisky. 

Is there a downside that I can't see? I figure it slightly devalues becoming a full shaman, since the fetch serves as the shaman's eyes and ears in the Spirit World for "free." This change sort of borrows a bit of that benefit and gives it to PCs who might not even become a shaman. For the moment, this doesn't really bother me.

[David Scott]

Spell description says

Quote

This spell allows a person to view the POW aura of a living being and to gauge its relative strength. This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World

It doesn’t make you discorporate, it lets you see the POW aura of living beings. Nothing to do with spirits or the spirit world. Second Sight traditionally has more to do with precognition and supernormal sight, not seeing spirits. 

[Joerg]

Second Sight doesn't take you across the veil. It only shows you the otherwise invisible spirits on your side of the veil.

As an analogon, heroquesters between quests don't get to watch the hero plane. To perceive and experience that, they have to cross over.

[CBDunkerson]

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

it lets you see the POW aura of living beings. Nothing to do with spirits or the spirit world.

Spirits ARE living beings.

Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever.

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said:

Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever.

Second Sight specifically does not allow you to see the Spirit World. You can see spirits that are not in the Spirit World, such as bound spirits, possessing spirits, ghosts haunting an area, etc.

Quote

This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World.

Unless you are saying that whilst you can't see the Spirit World itself, you can see spirits that are IN the Spirit World.

Edited March 26, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[CBDunkerson]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Unless you are saying that whilst you can't see the Spirit World itself, you can see spirits that are IN the Spirit World.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[styopa]

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Second Sight doesn't take you across the veil. It only shows you the otherwise invisible spirits on your side of the veil.

As an analogon, heroquesters between quests don't get to watch the hero plane. To perceive and experience that, they have to cross over.

Precisely this.  The barrier is the barrier.

24 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said:

Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever.

These are all spirits 'stuck' on this side of the screen.

[EpicureanDM]

 

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Second Sight specifically does not allow you to see the Spirit World. You can see spirits that are not in the Spirit World, such as bound spirits, possessing spirits, ghosts haunting an area, etc.

This is the best interpretation of the spell's limitations I've seen. That makes sense. Thanks, all.

Edited March 26, 2019 by EpicureanDM

[CBDunkerson]

29 minutes ago, styopa said:

These are all spirits 'stuck' on this side of the screen.

Neither a shaman's fetch (pg 356, 358) nor a spirit preparing to attack (pg 366) are 'stuck'... Second Sight allows both to be seen.

"Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight..." (pg 366)

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, CBDunkerson said:

Spirits ARE living beings.

Spirit and body are what make living beings. When separated they are the dead. Daka Fal separated the living from the dead, and for this spirits live in the spirit world and are considered dead. Spirits aren’t alive, they have no body. 

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Spirit and body are what make living beings. When separated they are the dead. Daka Fal separated the living from the dead, and for this spirits live in the spirit world and are considered dead. Spirits aren’t alive, they have no body. 

Not all sprirts came from coproral beings though., I think that the Daka Fal thin is more for spirit's of coporal beings that have died. 

[Psullie]

The spirit world's geography does not equate the physical world. There are places where they share space and time, but buy and large they are not analogous. To stand in the mundane world and look into the spirit world would overwhelm the senses and disorient the viewer. Second Sight, and a shamans ability only perceives those entities that are present in the mundane world. 

[g33k]

33 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Not all sprirts came from coproral beings though., I think that the Daka Fal thin is more for spirit's of coporal beings that have died. 

But I see the point David's making.

The quality of "being alive" attaches to the living creatures.  Whether a spirit is a ghost of someone who died, or a spirit-world entity that was never a living being... In neither case is the spirit "alive."

No living body = not alive.

[Atgxtg]

27 minutes ago, g33k said:

But I see the point David's making.

The quality of "being alive" attaches to the living creatures.  Whether a spirit is a ghost of someone who died, or a spirit-world entity that was never a living being... In neither case is the spirit "alive."

No living body = not alive.

But I don't think it would be dead either. 

I think for something to be dead it would first have to be alive, wouldn't it?

[g33k]

11 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

But I don't think it would be dead either. 

I think for something to be dead it would first have to be alive, wouldn't it?

Not door knobs.

I think something that never was alive is, conventionally, considered dead.

[Pentallion]

A rock isn't dead.  Nor was it ever alive.  It is neither, nor is it undead.  It simply is a rock.  Like a spirit.

[CBDunkerson]

Regardless of how we want to define 'living' in reference to fictional supernatural entities... the point is that Second Sight's text about detecting the POW of living creatures clearly does NOT exclude spirits because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits.

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said:

Regardless of how we want to define 'living' in reference to fictional supernatural entities... the point is that Second Sight's text about detecting the POW of living creatures clearly does NOT exclude spirits because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits.

As far as I am concerned, if a rock has a spirit that can be seen using Second Sight, it is alive for Gloranthan purposes.

Ghosts are (and should be) visible to Second Sight. Whether that makes them alive might be a different question, but Humakti are cool with them, so I guess they are for a certain value of alive.

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Ghosts are (and should be) visible to Second Sight. Whether that makes them alive might be a different question, but Humakti are cool with them, so I guess they are for a certain value of alive.

Ghosts are clearly dead. Humakti have no problem with the dead, as long as they stay dead.

[Prinz Slasar]

I'm a bit surprised that in a world like Glorantha there is no clear definition of "living entity". Or in RQ, at least.

Important to know which entities are subject of this spell. A gaming group of newbies shouldn't know gloranthanian metaphysics to make a quick decision at the table.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

I'm a bit surprised that in a world like Glorantha there is no clear definition of "living entity". Or in RQ, at least.

Of all possible worlds, I'd say Glorantha is among the least likely to have such well-defined concepts that are universal across all times and cultures.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, CBDunkerson said:

because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits.

I must of missed these can you give some references please.

[Joerg]

The spell description of Second Sight says that it works on creatures with POW. This does include elementals (p.247) and other entities that can be summoned, presumably including spirits. p.370 also talks about possessing creatures like disease spirits and passion spirits. By my reading, spirits are legitimate targets of Second Sight.

A bit more nit-picking:

p356: the fetch of a shaman can be seen with Second Sight. It is technically a spirit, right?

p.358:  

Quote

This means that the shaman can see another entity’s POW,

and these other entities include spirit entities that have POW, like e.g. a fetch.

p.366:

Quote

 Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight

and it was previously said that a shaman's innate Second Sight is the spell effect.

 

Second Sight can identify an illusion, just like Pierce Veil and Soul Sight (though I wonder about the rationale for this if the illusion is of something else than an entity that should have POW).

[g33k]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I must of missed these can you give some references please.

RQG p. 358

Quote

A shaman automatically has permanent Second Sight, as per the spirit magic spell on page 264.

 

RQG p. 366

Quote

Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight

 

Per pg.358, the Shamanic Ability and the spell work the same -- a Shaman's SecondSight can see everything a spellcaster's SecondSight can see, and vice versa.

Per p.366, this includes spirits (but per the spell description, only spirits in the mundane/middle world, not in the Spirit / otherworld (unless, as per CBDunkerson suggests, spirits are SS-visible from both sides of the barrier; which, when one thinks about it... may be so (otherwise, spirits approaching/attacking from the Spirit World might be less of a thing? unless visibility across the veil is asymmetrical...?)).

 

This kind of begs the question of using the "Visibility" spell to make an "invisible" otherworld entity visible... but REALLY yanking it across the veil into the Middle World and giving it a translucent shape.

It appears to me that the issue has been conceptually muddy in prior editions, and RQG has inherited some of this issue (if i had to guess, I'd guess a mix of copypasta, and different folks inside Chaosium having played it both ways, and so recognizing both versions as "correct" when proofing/editing RQG.

Edited March 27, 2019 by g33k
commentary

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

RQG p. 366

Quote

If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit
makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round
prior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all
times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware
of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes
visible. If both combatants are already in the Spirit World,
there is no delay.

I extended your quote a little, as the context makes it even clearer. Indeed, this does imply that a shaman's Second Sight lets them see spirits that are not in the Middle World.