Should Second Sight allow the caster to see the Spirit World?

[g33k]

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I extended your quote a little, as the context makes it even clearer. Indeed, this does imply that a shaman's Second Sight lets them see spirits that are not in the Middle World.

There is the implication, yes.

But it's clear from the spell-description that they cannot see the otherworld(s) directly...

But maybe they CAN see the spirits, that spirits are "dual-natured" (to use a concept from shadowrun), SS-visible no matter which Plane they are on??!?

 

 

GAH.

I think it bears a bit more thrashing out over here in the non-official threads, but...  I sense the formation of a new question for Jason's "Core Rules" thread...

[Joerg]

Plenty of spirits are bound to the mundane world but don't usually show themselves, at least in my view of the world. Second Sight lets the shaman or the caster of that spell perceive these spirits.

My main minor problem with Second Sight is how the user perceives both the spirit of the land or similarly vast entities (in the sense of the bits of the surface world they are bound to) alongside the spirits of smaller entities. In POW terms, the land will easily outshine every local spirit, but it is spread so far that its "density" isn't something to read by in terms of aura unless you approach a holy place of it. You don't get safe footing in the dark using Second Sight just because you perceive the land spirit, do you?

Then there are spirits with in game terms negligible POW that may contribute to a collective spirit entity. Any single grass plant won't have a single point of POW, but an ancestral grassland surely has. So what about a meadow or a glade? Same things with plants as they increase in size and age.

Collective spirit entities and individual spirits, when and how do you perceive them? When looking at a herd of Praxian tribal beasts, do you first and foremost see the Protectress, or do you see a mass of individual beasts?

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Plenty of spirits are bound to the mundane world but don't usually show themselves, at least in my view of the world. Second Sight lets the shaman or the caster of that spell perceive these spirits.

Yes, that's the way I interpret it as well.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Collective spirit entities and individual spirits, when and how do you perceive them? When looking at a herd of Praxian tribal beasts, do you first and foremost see the Protectress, or do you see a mass of individual beasts?

I think wyters and suchlike tent to hang out in the Spirit World most of the time. Most adventurers using Second Sight will just see a bunch of mundane beasts.

[Joerg]

 

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think wyters and suchlike tent to hang out in the Spirit World most of the time. Most adventurers using Second Sight will just see a bunch of mundane beasts.

Good point. Now what about (normal sized) termite, bee or ant hives, locust swarms etc. where the individual units fall below the normal POW range? Where do individual stats begin, anyway? Can I use Second Sight to hunt for Frog Woman's bounty in the absence of light? Locusts? (Not that 2 minutes of Second Sight for 3 MP is a very economical way to hunt...)

[Sumath]

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Now what about (normal sized) termite, bee or ant hives, locust swarms etc. where the individual units fall below the normal POW range? Where do individual stats begin, anyway? Can I use Second Sight to hunt for Frog Woman's bounty in the absence of light? Locusts?

If Second Sight gives the capacity to see entities with POW in the Middle World that might not mean that everything will be instantly recognisable (no more than everything material in the Middle World is instantly recognisable to the human eye). A GM could still ask for a Scan or Search roll to find the aura of small creatures, rocks etc, or to make out the entirety of the environment around them.

Second Sight could be like someone taking an acid trip - it could be sensory overload, and being able to process the information is something that would continue to require either perception or knowledge skills. The GM could rule which ones would be relevant in any given case. 

[EpicureanDM]

On 3/27/2019 at 5:00 PM, g33k said:

There is the implication, yes.

But it's clear from the spell-description that they cannot see the otherworld(s) directly...

But maybe they CAN see the spirits, that spirits are "dual-natured" (to use a concept from shadowrun), SS-visible no matter which Plane they are on??!?

A lot of the discussion in the thread comes from my initial formulation asking if Second Sight allows spirits in the Spirit World to be seen. It implies that the caster can also see the Spirit World itself, which is famously casual when it comes to the rules of space and geography. I sort of like the idea of being able to see spirits currently in the Spirit World, but not the Spirit World. That's what I was aiming for with my original question. But this thread has me a bit paralyzed. There are obviously consistency problems in the text. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

A lot of the discussion in the thread comes from my initial formulation asking if Second Sight allows spirits in the Spirit World to be seen. It implies that the caster can also see the Spirit World itself, which is famously casual when it comes to the rules of space and geography. I sort of like the idea of being able to see spirits currently in the Spirit World, but not the Spirit World. That's what I was aiming for with my original question. But this thread has me a bit paralyzed. There are obviously consistency problems in the text. 

My original inclination was to allow viewing of the Spirit World spirits, but have backed away from that. Just seeing those that are manifest/bound in the mortal world seems appropriate for those who are not shamans. A key difference with shamans is the fetch, which is IN the Spirit World, so effectively the eyes in the Spirit World (unless the shaman discorporates and effectively swaps position).  

[gochie]

This is a really good question that I've clearly never put enough thought into. 

I always thought of second sight as letting you see "souls" (POW) in the real World, but not the spirit world.

But then, I know a shaman's fetch is in the spirit world, and his second sight is due to looking through his fetch's eyes...

Maybe the fetch simply shares his "glasses" with he shaman, and let's him see the world the same way the fetch sees the spirit world? 

[styopa]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

This is a really good question that I've clearly never put enough thought into. 

I always thought of second sight as letting you see "souls" (POW) in the real World, but not the spirit world.

But then, I know a shaman's fetch is in the spirit world, and his second sight is due to looking through his fetch's eyes...

Maybe the fetch simply shares his "glasses" with he shaman, and let's him see the world the same way the fetch sees the spirit world? 

I don't have a problem with SHAMAN 2nd sight (innate, via the fetch) being intrinsically better than that from a spell.

Since the Shaman is simultaneously on BOTH sides of the veil, they can see both sides.  Otherwise, I'd say 2nd sight only lets you see stuff on your side.

[EpicureanDM]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My original inclination was to allow viewing of the Spirit World spirits, but have backed away from that. Just seeing those that are manifest/bound in the mortal world seems appropriate for those who are not shamans. A key difference with shamans is the fetch, which is IN the Spirit World, so effectively the eyes in the Spirit World (unless the shaman discorporates and effectively swaps position).  

This is probably where I'll end up. Give a full shaman's Second Sight more of a boost as a "class feature."

[Jokum]

Don't the allied spirits see in a similar way as per Second sight? ....and the priest can see what the spirit sees?

We have a shaman and a priest. So for scouting purposes the shaman discorporates and the priest sends her allied spirit with him. They are pretty much invisible to everyone but can get valuable information about the creatures they are about to face. And they don't have eyes or ears like corporate beings, so the perseption is different.

Do they sense inanimate objects? Somewhat, in our game. All elements are bound(or built) to certain Runes.

But how about undead? Animated skeletons? Vampires?

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Jokum said:

Don't the allied spirits see in a similar way as per Second sight?

Allied spirits aren't discorporate, they inhabit an object or creature. They would need to cast Second Sight.

3 hours ago, Jokum said:

....and the priest can see what the spirit sees?

Yes.

3 hours ago, Jokum said:

We have a shaman and a priest. So for scouting purposes the shaman discorporates and the priest sends her allied spirit with him.

The allied spirit would need to discorporate from their object/animal (Only Waha allied spirits are likely able to do this as they could have Discorporate).

Rather than discorporating, the shaman could just send their fetch (saves an hour of time as no ritual is required).

3 hours ago, Jokum said:

They are pretty much invisible to everyone but can get valuable information about the creatures they are about to face. And they don't have eyes or ears like corporate beings, so the perseption is different.

Do they sense inanimate objects? Somewhat, in our game. All elements are bound(or built) to certain Runes.

But how about undead? Animated skeletons? Vampires?

A shaman's Second Sight allows them to see the target's POW aura as much lower, within 5 points, or much higher than their POW, they can't see undead (per page 264). If the shaman has one of the enhanced Second Sight abilities (page 361), they could learn more.

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/28/2019 at 5:00 AM, Joerg said:

Plenty of spirits are bound to the mundane world but don't usually show themselves, at least in my view of the world. Second Sight lets the shaman or the caster of that spell perceive these spirits.

Yeah, I have been trying to wrap my mind around this, and this must be how it works, I think. We have two clear states, the mundane world with a spirit fully manifested (and visible to everyone) and the spirit world, that only looks a bit like the mundane world (and is invisible unless you discorporate and go there, and from which the mundane world is equally invisible).

But something like a ghost, or perhaps the spirit of a boulder, or a non-manifested disease spirit on the prowl, seem like spirits that exist in the mundane world but non-manifested and invisible except to second sight. At least that’s what makes sense to me. If you can’t see a ghost using second sight, then it’s weird.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

don't know if I'm wrong :

I imagine the spirit world with at least one more dimension than the mundane world.

for exemple if we modelize the mundane world as a line (x = 0 means Boldhome, x = 1 means Clearwine, x = 2 means Jonstown, etc...), the spirit world could be modelized as a plan (x,y)

with y =0 means "overlap with the mundane world" there is a place (x = 0, y = 0) which fit withs Boldhome, there is place (x = 1, y =0) which fits with Clearwine

What is the impact :

if the spirit wants to be visible in Boldhome(to interact with the mundane world for example) it must be in (x=0,y=0) and becomes visible : anyone cansee it

If the same spirit wants to not be visible in Boldhome but wants to follow the pc who are in Boldhome, it must be in (x=0, y=0) but mundane entities (living, allied spirits or any spirits bound in a mundane object) can see it only with second sight or if they are able to discorporate

if the same spirit is not in the "y=0 position" no one can see it from the mundane worldeven with second sight. people must discorporate then travel (to reach at least y>0 position)

 

about "little spirits" (an ant for example) Second sight is not miraculous. It shows what your "range" of pow can see. So as you are probably not able to see every ant when you walk, your not able to see every ant pow. You must focus your attention on a point, and maybe you will see a 0.1 pow entity. In the same way you must focus your attention on this specific 10cm2 location to see my best ant friend 😉

 

about the grass, etc... (and maybe the ants after all) I imagine it as a kind of wyter. individuals have no sense for pow detection. So there is an aggregate spirit. but this spirit is able to "move" anywhere in the location it covers.

That means it could be seen somewhere in its "domain" and not elsewhere, until it moves to another location.Of course (in my opinion) bigger is its pow bigger is the place where it can be seen (same system than my ant pow, but with bigger pow than "human size")

[Darius West]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:59 PM, Pentallion said:

A rock isn't dead.  Nor was it ever alive.  It is neither, nor is it undead.  It simply is a rock.  Like a spirit.

Mostal, god of rocks and stone, is a dead god.  This is why rocks are dead.  Rocks are thus normally relegated to being scenery and only get up and walk around then they are Jolanti and so-forth. 

[Darius West]

On 3/27/2019 at 6:51 AM, EpicureanDM said:

It's name is so misleading. I've had to explain to three different players that it doesn't let them see spirits or the Spirit World.

I'm probably going to houserule it to allow it to see into the Spirit World at the cost of making the caster a little more interesting or noticeable to spirits in the area. It doesn't move the caster into the Spirit World, so antagonistic spirits would still need to materialize before getting frisky. 

According to the rules, Shamanic Spirit Sight works like the spirit magic spell of the same name, which only allows the recipient to see the POW of nearby entities (does that mean the Undead, who have no POW, are invisible?).

I can sympathize with your wanting to house-rule that the shaman can see into the Spirit World.  The Spirit World is divided into at least 3 parts (RQG p374), the Inner, the Frontier, and the Outer regions.  These require the Spirit Travel skill to negotiate.  

I personally house-rule a local "permeable veil" state where Spirit Sight sees the local world, but slightly distorted and full of nature spirits, like dew babies asleep in the soil or floating asleep (and somewhat invisible) in the air.  Objects with spiritual power are larger, as are powerful living things, as in keeping with tribal (and even medieval) art.  This is called the "Local" Spirit World, and is completely accessible to Spirit Sight at a Shaman's whim, but some spirits can impinge on Spirit Sight regardless such as Hearth Monkeys (part of my collection of nature spirits):

Hearth Monkeys are the spirits of small translucent baboons, about 1 foot high, who are drawn to hearth fires, and simply sit there mesmerized by the fire.  If the fire begins to die down, the hearth monkeys will begin a low hooting cry (that a Shaman can hear, whether they want to or not), as they are disappointed by the interruption.  Should something outside the fire pit catch fire, the hearth monkeys will begin to screech in excitement and dance about.  This is not seen by most people in the camp, but often allows shamans to prevent catastrophe, and so while hearth monkeys are a noisy nuisance who hoot every time a campfire dies down, they are tolerated by shamans.  Some shamans find the incessant spirit hooting as the fires die down to be intolerable, and will actively drive the Hearth Monkeys away from their camp.  Hearth Monkeys have a subordinate relationship with the Dancing Spark spirits, and are often controlled by the Dancing Sparks as they seek to spread themselves to new fires.  Hearth Monkeys that are wandering under the control of Dancing Sparks are the best ones for shamans to harvest if they wish to obtain access to Oakfed shamanhood.  This comprises a minor heroquest from the early life of Oakfed when he first left Mahome, his mother, and travelled Prax with Grandfather Baboon before Oakfed realized that he wasn’t an elemental but a minor god.

Characteristics           Average

Pow    1d6                      3-4

Int      1d4+2                  4-5

Cha     1d4+2                  4-5

Move: Equal to Pow

Magic Points: 1-6

Skills:  Hoot Loudly 50%, Mesmerized by hearth fire 95%, Screech 75%, Spirit Combat 25%.

Magic:  none

Special Ability:  Search (Fire State).  Hearth Monkeys don’t know much, but they can tell if a fire is going out, and they can tell if a fire is catching onto something it shouldn’t.  If the fire is going out, they hoot, and if something is catching alight, they screech.  If you want to pacify them, simply build the fire up again, or put out the conflagration before it spreads further.

Carry Away Dancing Spark.  It is a little known fact, but Hearth Monkeys are able to keep Dancing Sparks alive outside the usual limiting range of their fire of origin.  At the command of the Dancing Spark, the Hearth Monkey will feed the spark with tinder, and is utterly immune to any pain from burning they may experience from gently holding the little spark.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Darius West

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Mostal, god of rocks and stone, is a dead god.  This is why rocks are dead.  

Isn’t that Stone, Mostal’s brother? And surely boulders and mountains can have spirits regardless?

I do agree it’s both reasonable and interesting if the Shaman can see a somewhat hallucinogenic version of the real world, infused with the presence of spirits.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[EpicureanDM]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

I personally house-rule a local "permeable veil" state where Spirit Sight sees the local world, but slightly distorted and full of nature spirits, like dew babies asleep in the soil or floating asleep (and somewhat invisible) in the air.  Objects with spiritual power are larger, as are powerful living things, as in keeping with tribal (and even medieval) art.  This is called the "Local" Spirit World, and is completely accessible to Spirit Sight at a Shaman's whim, but some spirits can impinge on Spirit Sight regardless such as Hearth Monkeys

Recent replies might have overlooked that this thread is three years old. I was very surprised to get notifications about it over the past few days. 😉

This is essentially what I ended up going with. 

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Isn’t that Stone, Mostal’s brother? And surely boulders and mountains can have spirits regardless?

You're right, Stone was killed by "hiking Elf" smh.  As for animated mountains, we call them giants and dragons I think. 🤔

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

"hiking Elf"

I never knew that the Aldryami had something akin to Orlanth Adventurous! 😉

SDLeary

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

As for animated mountains, we call them giants and dragons I think. 🤔

[Scotty]

After a brief second wind, this topic is now closed. Please make a new one if needed with an appropriate title.