EpicureanDM Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 It's name is so misleading. I've had to explain to three different players that it doesn't let them see spirits or the Spirit World. I'm probably going to houserule it to allow it to see into the Spirit World at the cost of making the caster a little more interesting or noticeable to spirits in the area. It doesn't move the caster into the Spirit World, so antagonistic spirits would still need to materialize before getting frisky. Is there a downside that I can't see? I figure it slightly devalues becoming a full shaman, since the fetch serves as the shaman's eyes and ears in the Spirit World for "free." This change sort of borrows a bit of that benefit and gives it to PCs who might not even become a shaman. For the moment, this doesn't really bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Spell description says Quote This spell allows a person to view the POW aura of a living being and to gauge its relative strength. This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World It doesn’t make you discorporate, it lets you see the POW aura of living beings. Nothing to do with spirits or the spirit world. Second Sight traditionally has more to do with precognition and supernormal sight, not seeing spirits. 1 ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Second Sight doesn't take you across the veil. It only shows you the otherwise invisible spirits on your side of the veil. As an analogon, heroquesters between quests don't get to watch the hero plane. To perceive and experience that, they have to cross over. 4 Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBDunkerson Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 14 minutes ago, David Scott said: it lets you see the POW aura of living beings. Nothing to do with spirits or the spirit world. Spirits ARE living beings. Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said: Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever. Second Sight specifically does not allow you to see the Spirit World. You can see spirits that are not in the Spirit World, such as bound spirits, possessing spirits, ghosts haunting an area, etc. Quote This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World. Unless you are saying that whilst you can't see the Spirit World itself, you can see spirits that are IN the Spirit World. Edited March 26, 2019 by PhilHibbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBDunkerson Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: Unless you are saying that whilst you can't see the Spirit World itself, you can see spirits that are IN the Spirit World. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styopa Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 43 minutes ago, Joerg said: Second Sight doesn't take you across the veil. It only shows you the otherwise invisible spirits on your side of the veil. As an analogon, heroquesters between quests don't get to watch the hero plane. To perceive and experience that, they have to cross over. Precisely this. The barrier is the barrier. 24 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said: Second Sight specifically allows you to see spirits whether they be in the spirit world, bound into an item, possessing a creature, a Shaman's fetch, or whatever. These are all spirits 'stuck' on this side of the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicureanDM Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: Second Sight specifically does not allow you to see the Spirit World. You can see spirits that are not in the Spirit World, such as bound spirits, possessing spirits, ghosts haunting an area, etc. This is the best interpretation of the spell's limitations I've seen. That makes sense. Thanks, all. Edited March 26, 2019 by EpicureanDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBDunkerson Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 29 minutes ago, styopa said: These are all spirits 'stuck' on this side of the screen. Neither a shaman's fetch (pg 356, 358) nor a spirit preparing to attack (pg 366) are 'stuck'... Second Sight allows both to be seen. "Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight..." (pg 366) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, CBDunkerson said: Spirits ARE living beings. Spirit and body are what make living beings. When separated they are the dead. Daka Fal separated the living from the dead, and for this spirits live in the spirit world and are considered dead. Spirits aren’t alive, they have no body. 3 1 ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, David Scott said: Spirit and body are what make living beings. When separated they are the dead. Daka Fal separated the living from the dead, and for this spirits live in the spirit world and are considered dead. Spirits aren’t alive, they have no body. Not all sprirts came from coproral beings though., I think that the Daka Fal thin is more for spirit's of coporal beings that have died. Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psullie Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 The spirit world's geography does not equate the physical world. There are places where they share space and time, but buy and large they are not analogous. To stand in the mundane world and look into the spirit world would overwhelm the senses and disorient the viewer. Second Sight, and a shamans ability only perceives those entities that are present in the mundane world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 33 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: Not all sprirts came from coproral beings though., I think that the Daka Fal thin is more for spirit's of coporal beings that have died. But I see the point David's making. The quality of "being alive" attaches to the living creatures. Whether a spirit is a ghost of someone who died, or a spirit-world entity that was never a living being... In neither case is the spirit "alive." No living body = not alive. C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 27 minutes ago, g33k said: But I see the point David's making. The quality of "being alive" attaches to the living creatures. Whether a spirit is a ghost of someone who died, or a spirit-world entity that was never a living being... In neither case is the spirit "alive." No living body = not alive. But I don't think it would be dead either. I think for something to be dead it would first have to be alive, wouldn't it? Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: But I don't think it would be dead either. I think for something to be dead it would first have to be alive, wouldn't it? Not door knobs. I think something that never was alive is, conventionally, considered dead. C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pentallion Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 A rock isn't dead. Nor was it ever alive. It is neither, nor is it undead. It simply is a rock. Like a spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBDunkerson Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Regardless of how we want to define 'living' in reference to fictional supernatural entities... the point is that Second Sight's text about detecting the POW of living creatures clearly does NOT exclude spirits because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, CBDunkerson said: Regardless of how we want to define 'living' in reference to fictional supernatural entities... the point is that Second Sight's text about detecting the POW of living creatures clearly does NOT exclude spirits because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits. As far as I am concerned, if a rock has a spirit that can be seen using Second Sight, it is alive for Gloranthan purposes. Ghosts are (and should be) visible to Second Sight. Whether that makes them alive might be a different question, but Humakti are cool with them, so I guess they are for a certain value of alive. Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, Joerg said: Ghosts are (and should be) visible to Second Sight. Whether that makes them alive might be a different question, but Humakti are cool with them, so I guess they are for a certain value of alive. Ghosts are clearly dead. Humakti have no problem with the dead, as long as they stay dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinz Slasar Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 I'm a bit surprised that in a world like Glorantha there is no clear definition of "living entity". Or in RQ, at least. Important to know which entities are subject of this spell. A gaming group of newbies shouldn't know gloranthanian metaphysics to make a quick decision at the table. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 hours ago, prinz.slasar said: I'm a bit surprised that in a world like Glorantha there is no clear definition of "living entity". Or in RQ, at least. Of all possible worlds, I'd say Glorantha is among the least likely to have such well-defined concepts that are universal across all times and cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 8 hours ago, CBDunkerson said: because there are numerous references to using Second Sight to see spirits. I must of missed these can you give some references please. ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 The spell description of Second Sight says that it works on creatures with POW. This does include elementals (p.247) and other entities that can be summoned, presumably including spirits. p.370 also talks about possessing creatures like disease spirits and passion spirits. By my reading, spirits are legitimate targets of Second Sight. A bit more nit-picking: p356: the fetch of a shaman can be seen with Second Sight. It is technically a spirit, right? p.358: Quote This means that the shaman can see another entity’s POW, and these other entities include spirit entities that have POW, like e.g. a fetch. p.366: Quote Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight and it was previously said that a shaman's innate Second Sight is the spell effect. Second Sight can identify an illusion, just like Pierce Veil and Soul Sight (though I wonder about the rationale for this if the illusion is of something else than an entity that should have POW). Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, David Scott said: I must of missed these can you give some references please. RQG p. 358 Quote A shaman automatically has permanent Second Sight, as per the spirit magic spell on page 264. RQG p. 366 Quote Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight Per pg.358, the Shamanic Ability and the spell work the same -- a Shaman's SecondSight can see everything a spellcaster's SecondSight can see, and vice versa. Per p.366, this includes spirits (but per the spell description, only spirits in the mundane/middle world, not in the Spirit / otherworld (unless, as per CBDunkerson suggests, spirits are SS-visible from both sides of the barrier; which, when one thinks about it... may be so (otherwise, spirits approaching/attacking from the Spirit World might be less of a thing? unless visibility across the veil is asymmetrical...?)). This kind of begs the question of using the "Visibility" spell to make an "invisible" otherworld entity visible... but REALLY yanking it across the veil into the Middle World and giving it a translucent shape. It appears to me that the issue has been conceptually muddy in prior editions, and RQG has inherited some of this issue (if i had to guess, I'd guess a mix of copypasta, and different folks inside Chaosium having played it both ways, and so recognizing both versions as "correct" when proofing/editing RQG. Edited March 27, 2019 by g33k commentary 2 C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, g33k said: RQG p. 366 Quote If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes visible. If both combatants are already in the Spirit World, there is no delay. I extended your quote a little, as the context makes it even clearer. Indeed, this does imply that a shaman's Second Sight lets them see spirits that are not in the Middle World. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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