Why all the hostility?

[Shiningbrow]

I was flicking through the cults section in the RQG book, and I noticed in the Cult Compatibility chart that Daka Fal is very hostile to the majority of other cults, and this is generally reciprocated. Any good reason why the cult of Ancestor Worship is so angry? Or that cults that actively practice (or at least, cultures that respect) ancestor worship are so angsty towards Daka Fal?

Similarly - Eurmal... why does this cult have so much hostility towards others? I mean, outside of pantheon loyalties... After all, Orlanth and Yelm are Neutral.

[metcalph]

Beacuse Daka Fal was once Grandfather Mortal, the first man to die.  Daka Fal hates the Gods because they took his birthright.

 

Quote

C. PARTICULAR LIKES AND DISLIKES
The cult dislikes gods in general, but is willing to compromise
itself in favor of being left alone when possible. Still, it is a hostile
world full of imminent dangers, and the cult distrusts all which it
has not conquered. Conquest for this cult is always temporary, so
they are very cautious. However, there is no particular dislike of
any deity beyond any other, save for two. The most hated deity
is Death, which separated the men from the gods and robbed
humans of their birthright. The second most hated is Chaos,
which is a specialized form of Death, but capable of destroying
the gods as well as mortal beings

Cults of Prax p14

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by metcalph
Added quote

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Eurmal... why does this cult have so much hostility towards others?

Because everybody has beaten him, kicked him, punished him...

Also look at Fronela, where Eurmal is known as Firebringer and "Friend of Men" - basically the Prometheus figure. Probably received a similar treatment by a majority of the other gods, too.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Because everybody has beaten him, kicked him, punished him...

Obviously personal responsibility is completely irrelevant here, but I would have thought that perhaps he'd take it all in stride, rather than so personally. Surely there's some concept of deserving what he gets?

Besides which, he's managed to get his own back enough times.... (not sure who gets the last laugh though...)

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Beacuse Daka Fal was once Grandfather Mortal, the first man to die.  Daka Fal hates the Gods because they took his birthright. 

Extremely narrow minded.... Hating Death (and Humakt) makes sense. And Chaos. Distrusting the others is just silly....

(but... I know - I didn't write the story, and that's just the way it is! So, I'm not arguing about it... just stating a perception)

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Obviously personal responsibility is completely irrelevant here, but I would have thought that perhaps he'd take it all in stride, rather than so personally. Surely there's some concept of deserving what he gets?

Besides which, he's managed to get his own back enough times.... (not sure who gets the last laugh though...)

He has been humiliated by others often enough to build up a lot of grudges. But I think this is actually a case of siding with the mortals, and being condemned by almost every deity for this.

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Extremely narrow minded.... Hating Death (and Humakt) makes sense. And Chaos. Distrusting the others is just silly...

I guess it is mutual. Grandfather Mortal is blamed for being the first person to accept Death.

Compare the Brithini reaction to the Expulsion Walk and sacrifice of Malkion.

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

(but... I know - I didn't write the story, and that's just the way it is! So, I'm not arguing about it... just stating a perception)

Actually, you managed to pick out a conflict that hasn't been that prominent in Gloranthan myths - that of humans (and their rare allies) raging against the gods, acquiring their powers for themselves and their own ends. Stealing fire from the sun or from the gods as a collective. Elevating the hoi polloi to manipulate the exclusive domain of the great ones.

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

He has been humiliated by others often enough to build up a lot of grudges. But I think this is actually a case of siding with the mortals, and being condemned by almost every deity for this.

I guess it is mutual. Grandfather Mortal is blamed for being the first person to accept Death.

Compare the Brithini reaction to the Expulsion Walk and sacrifice of Malkion.

Actually, you managed to pick out a conflict that hasn't been that prominent in Gloranthan myths - that of humans (and their rare allies) raging against the gods, acquiring their powers for themselves and their own ends. Stealing fire from the sun or from the gods as a collective. Elevating the hoi polloi to manipulate the exclusive domain of the great ones.

You're referencing things I haven't come across in my readings yet....

Very interesting if that's how the world works - I've never seen it like this before! Please expand!

"Blaming" Grandfather Mortal for "accepting" Death... 🤨

 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You're referencing things I haven't come across in my readings yet....

Ah, sorry. Joerg at work again. 🙄

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Very interesting if that's how the world works - I've never seen it like this before! Please expand!

Consider that this happened in the Golden Age. The rebel gods still were scum hiding out in the shadows and away from the courts. Umath had a camp while Yelm had a palace atop a city.

Giving fire to humanity was a breach of the natural order - if you aren't a Fire Tribe entity, you have no business wielding fire, do you?

Without this prospensity to accept runic powers alien to their nature, humans (represented by Grandfather Mortal) wouldn't have succumbed to this borderline Chaotic expression of the Separation/Conflict rune. Monkey See, Monkey Do. And without Grandfather Mortal setting the pattern and blazing the trail into the Underworld, the slain Emperor wouldn't have been bound to that course.

Releasing Death onto the world brought a change - in some philosophies a necessary change, but overall a deeply regrettable change the majority of the establishment would have preferred to avoid - most of all the Emperor who had imposed his reign of stagnation onto the world.

And Death didn't stop at the mortals. Orlanth demonstrated it on the Emperor/Rebellus Terminus demonstrated it on Murharzarm, and even the divine were irrevocably affected. As it turned out, there were things worse than Death hiding outside of the Cosmos, and those probably were able to enter only because Death had been removed from the border.

 

The myths around Death are difficult, too. All too many myths make it hard to decide whether they are dealing with Humakt or Nontraya. Which of them was the invader Tada hid Eiritha from?

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

"Blaming" Grandfather Mortal for "accepting" Death... 🤨

Yes, this is blaming the victim. A lot like e.g. the fallout victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki carrying the shame for their condition. It is a mind-set that (real world) westerners don't usually apply inside their own social group, although they are more than ready to assign inferiority and "they deserve it" to other, in their eyes benighted, cultures.

 

[soltakss]

Don't forget that Hostile isn't Enemy.

Hostile Cults are rivals, they might dislike each other and might even fight each other, but two members of Hostile cults might band together to fight a member of a common Enemy cult.

I see Hostile as Dislike and Enemy as Hate.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget that Hostile isn't Enemy.

Hostile Cults are rivals, they might dislike each other and might even fight each other, but two members of Hostile cults might band together to fight a member of a common Enemy cult.

I see Hostile as Dislike and Enemy as Hate.

Except... Orlanth is neutral to Yelm and Yelmalio... They should clearly "dislike" each other (there's NO way a person should be able to be in both cults - Orlanth and Yelmalio). Seven Mothers gets Hostility from Orlanth (given the Chaos connection, I find that a bit odd...rather than Enemy).

I would have put the Yelm/Orlanth relationship about halfway between N & H... Probably leaning towards H. Constant mistrust, suspicion, old rivalries easy to be remembered. There can be peace, but can easily be pushed to conflict.

Seven Mothers/Orlanth should be H-E, given the connection to Chaos. I can't think of a situation in which they'd ever work together for a mutual cause (without a lot of self-interest involved).  But, I'll accept the Hostile...

Stormbull, however, does have hostility towards Yelm & Yelmalio ... (granted, he's more prone that way 😛 )

 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... Orlanth is neutral to Yelm and Yelmalio... They should clearly "dislike" each other (there's NO way a person should be able to be in both cults - Orlanth and Yelmalio). Seven Mothers gets Hostility from Orlanth (given the Chaos connection, I find that a bit odd...rather than Enemy).

I would have put the Yelm/Orlanth relationship about halfway between N & H... Probably leaning towards H. Constant mistrust, suspicion, old rivalries easy to be remembered. There can be peace, but can easily be pushed to conflict.

Seven Mothers/Orlanth should be H-E, given the connection to Chaos. I can't think of a situation in which they'd ever work together for a mutual cause (without a lot of self-interest involved).  But, I'll accept the Hostile...

Stormbull, however, does have hostility towards Yelm & Yelmalio ... (granted, he's more prone that way 😛 )

 

Orlanth is neutral to Yelm and Yelmalio. And yes, it IS possible to be in both Orlanth and Yelmalio.

Seven Mothers is not Chaotic, and thus only hostile.

You may be surprised, but that Cult Relationship chart accurately reflects how Greg and I view the relationships between the cults. YGWV and all that, but that is how it works in OUR Glorantha.

[Austin]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Orlanth is neutral to Yelm and Yelmalio. And yes, it IS possible to be in both Orlanth and Yelmalio.

As Initiate of one & Lay Member of another, or as Initiates of both? What're the "compatibility" requirements to be an initiate in two cults. I've found the description on RQG 275 ambiguous. Does it just vary from cult to cult, loosely organized by the Cult Relationship chart?

Also, if you're an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio, do you have to challenge yourself to riddle contests?

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, Crel said:

As Initiate of one & Lay Member of another, or as Initiates of both? What're the "compatibility" requirements to be an initiate in two cults. I've found the description on RQG 275 ambiguous. Does it just vary from cult to cult, loosely organized by the Cult Relationship chart?

Remember Yelmalio has many forms, one of which is Elmal.

 

[Austin]

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Remember Yelmalio has many forms, one of which is Elmal.

Fair enough (though my gut says a Sun Dome Temple might be queasy about admitting an Orlanth initiate...), but not what I intended as my main thrust. Sorry if I was vague.

What I wanted to get at is trying to understand the general principle for multi-cult membership--for example, do the cults need to be A or F toward one another on the chart, or merely N? Or does each and every cult basically have its own list of where it allows cross-membership? (And therefore we just need to wait for GaGoG.) Orlanth and Yelmalio just happened to be the example in this case. Because while the membership section says the cults must be compatible, I don't understand where that line is drawn on the chart.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Crel said:

Fair enough (though my gut says a Sun Dome Temple might be queasy about admitting an Orlanth initiate...), but not what I intended as my main thrust. Sorry if I was vague.

What I wanted to get at is trying to understand the general principle for multi-cult membership--for example, do the cults need to be A or F toward one another on the chart, or merely N? Or does each and every cult basically have its own list of where it allows cross-membership? (And therefore we just need to wait for GaGoG.) Orlanth and Yelmalio just happened to be the example in this case. Because while the membership section says the cults must be compatible, I don't understand where that line is drawn on the chart.

Cults of Terror used the Cult Compatibility membership chart

 

Quote

As stated in RuneQuest Classic, an Initiate or priest of one
cult may become a priest or Initiate of another by making the
same roll she made to become an Initiate of the first cult, for both
cults. Generally, this is a matter of adding the character's POW
and CHA to a quantity equal to 1 for every 100 Lunars contributed
to the cult, dividing the result by three, and mutliplying by 5 to
find the percentage chance of being accepted.
This chart also supplants that method. Now the player of the
prospective multi-cult character must multiply first by his cult's
reaction to the potential new cult. If that roll is successful, he
must multiply then by the other cult's reaction to his first cult.
Nysalor illuminates do not use this chart except as it pertains
to other cults to which they may belong.

Cults of Terror p89

 

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Remember Yelmalio has many forms, one of which is Elmal.

 

There's a difference between 'cult' and 'god' (and, that's even assuming the god is actually the same! Saying they are would be very God Learner-ish)

Certainly, Elmal is a Sun god - but the cult of Elmal is not the same cult as Yelmalio, and I reckon they'd both be willing to fight to the.. first blood?... to argue the point.

Stormbull is Hostile to Yelm and Yelmalio (Yelm reciprocates, Yelmalio is Neutral)... I haven't seen any ratings for Elmal, but being part of the Storm pantheon, I'd bet it's not that bad... I do wonder what Y & Y would think of Elmal (and vice versa).

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's a difference between 'cult' and 'god' (and, that's even assuming the god is actually the same! Saying they are would be very God Learner-ish)

I would rather stress that there is a difference between the cult as an expression of all the worshipers of a deity and the local cult community (with a wyter and all) which may be quite different, and which may harbor friendship or hostility for other things than just your primary cult.

 

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Stormbull is Hostile to Yelm and Yelmalio (Yelm reciprocates, Yelmalio is Neutral)... I haven't seen any ratings for Elmal, but being part of the Storm pantheon, I'd bet it's not that bad... I do wonder what Y & Y would think of Elmal (and vice versa).

IMO Stormbull is pretty much a hostile force as a principle, with a series of exceptions. This might be a general trait for Disorder deities. Good at fighting Chaos and other bad things, often unconventionally, but really bad at fitting into society.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, Crel said:

Also, if you're an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio, do you have to challenge yourself to riddle contests?

Ahh, intant illumination!

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would rather stress that there is a difference between the cult as an expression of all the worshipers of a deity and the local cult community (with a wyter and all) which may be quite different, and which may harbor friendship or hostility for other things than just your primary cult.

Very true. But going into that level of politics would change the compatibility table every year or so. And, you'd end up with Orlanth hostile to Orlanth...  

[Joerg]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Very true. But going into that level of politics would change the compatibility table every year or so. And, you'd end up with Orlanth hostile to Orlanth...  

Yes, exactly. That's what the Arrowmound Lawstaff Quest is all about.

[daskindt]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's a difference between 'cult' and 'god' (and, that's even assuming the god is actually the same! Saying they are would be very God Learner-ish)

Certainly, Elmal is a Sun god - but the cult of Elmal is not the same cult as Yelmalio, and I reckon they'd both be willing to fight to the.. first blood?... to argue the point.

Stormbull is Hostile to Yelm and Yelmalio (Yelm reciprocates, Yelmalio is Neutral)... I haven't seen any ratings for Elmal, but being part of the Storm pantheon, I'd bet it's not that bad... I do wonder what Y & Y would think of Elmal (and vice versa).

You’re relying on a very pre-RQG retcon understanding of Elmal.

Forget the past twenty+ years of Elmal’s development and mythology.

Yelmalio is Elmal+.

Everybody says so.

Learn to love Yelmalio.

Everybody does.

Yelmalio has always been Elmal.

Everybody knows.

Yelmalio is beloved by everybody.

Hell . . . In the next edition, we learn that there has always been a Sun Dome at the Castle of Lead in Dagori Inkarth.

Yelmalio and Zorak Zoran are buddies.

There’s a whole trilogy of buddy comedies planned that details their wacky adventures.

Everytime Zorak Zoran uses his Fire rune, he quips to Yelmalio, “Jealous, little Elmal?”

They glare at each other. Then Yelmalio cracks a shimmering smile and they both laugh. Zorak Zoran slaps Yelmalio on the back, a bit too hard, and then they laugh some more.

[Brootse]

21 hours ago, Crel said:

Also, if you're an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio, do you have to challenge yourself to riddle contests?

Wandering Sun, Jealous Uncle,
I have a new Toy here, see it?
Test me, twice if you can
For a Gold Piece each right Answer.

Where are the car keys?

Is the stove still on?

[Jeff]

The old conflict between Elmal partisans and Yelmalio partisans reappears!

Simple way of looking at this - the Elmal (sub)cult is associated with Orlanth, the Yelmalio cult is neutral. The gods fought in the Gods War, but also cooperated together in the Gods War. Orlanth has few non-Chaotic cults he cannot cooperate with on at least a neutral basis - he is the King of the Gods after all. He's hostile to the Seven Mothers, but not an Enemy, The Red Goddess is an Enemy as are all Chaotic cults.

[soltakss]

The way I see it is that Elmal is Yelmalio as worshipped by the Orlanthi and Yelmalio is Yelmalio as worshipped by the Solars.

Orlanth is friendly to Elmal, as he was the Yelmalio who stayed behind and helped the people of Orlanth, but is neutral to Yelmalio as he was the Yelmalio who left the people of Orlanth.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

The old conflict between Elmal partisans and Yelmalio partisans reappears!

Can Yelmalians get their RPs back by worshipping in Elmal temples? And vice versa? Can they sacrifice for new spells at their temples?

(ETA  I don't really have a dog in this fight.... so, it's a genuine question.)

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Simple way of looking at this - the Elmal (sub)cult is associated with Orlanth, the Yelmalio cult is neutral. The gods fought in the Gods War, but also cooperated together in the Gods War. Orlanth has few non-Chaotic cults he cannot cooperate with on at least a neutral basis - he is the King of the Gods after all. He's hostile to the Seven Mothers, but not an Enemy, The Red Goddess is an Enemy as are all Chaotic cults.

My post above posited the love - hate on a 10point scale (or using half-bands)... ie, a H-E (or, in the old Cults of Terror, that'd be 0.5.. 0 being Enemy, , 1 being Hostile). I understand that, over time and situations, these can change (slightly). And, RQG tends to "err on the side of caution"... ie, Hostile, rather than Enemy (at least because it's easier to go one way than the other).

I would like to know why Seven Mothers only gets Hostile (from Orlanth) when they condone (encourage??) the use of Chaos - even if not specifically Chaotic themselves. It seems to be a bit of a fine line (as Stormbull sees through). **

 

**I note that this has changed from the old days... Cults of Terror has Stormbull being Hostile towards Seven Mothers... in RGQ they're seen as Enemy. Seven Mothers, OTOH, has gone from seeing Stormbull as Neutral, to Enemy! The question then is... what's changed since 1981?

Edited June 23, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Orlanth is friendly to Elmal

Only Friendly? I thought they'd be Associate...