davecake

Apologies for the thread necromancy - been meaning to get around to commenting for weeks. In general, I agree with Peter here. Pamalt isn't just the culture hero of the Doraddi, he is the Earth King for the continent. Joergs assumption that Pamalt would be totally unknown in Umathela and Maslo rests on the assumption that Pamalt is just a culture god, not part of the mythic geography. The elves in the jungles will know of Pamalt as the Earth King, and acknowledge him as such, just as the elves in Genertela know of, and give some worship to, Ernalda. When Earth worshippers arrive in Umathela and attempt to contact the local Earth powers, such as the local land goddess, they will find the Earth King appearing when they heroquest, etc - and in the God Learner era the identity of the Earth King and Pamalt was thoroughly established. I think the idea that the Earth cults determine the mythic landscape, rather than the other way around, is flawed - ultimately the same sort of error as the Goddess Switch - if the Earth King (or Land goddess, etc) is there, the Earth Cults will learn of it. Sure, that version of the Pamalt cult will be different, but we are talking about Pamalt as Earth King - even if he, like Gata or Flamal, sees worship more through the religions of other deities, he will still be significant. And this will be separate to his role as culture god of the Doraddi - but probably not 100% separate. And Pamalt is known to the Fiwan, too. There are plenty of myths of Pamalt interacting with the Fiwan known to the Doraddi, and I am pretty sure it goes the other way too. Also, the hostility of Pamalt and the elves may be a little overstated, or at least oversimplified - it is true that the Doraddi cult deforested the plains, but this mostly happened in the First Age, and was just as much (or more) a result of the inter-Aldryami wars of that period. The truth may be Peter asks what is Pamalt like in other areas. In the jungle, I think he not only is known for his power over Earth spirits, but as a shamanic means to interact with foreign powers (often via shared reverence for the Earth) - eg elf and fiwan and the pygmy humans, all of whom know how to contact the Earth King through shamanic means, may come together as part of Earth ceremonies. He is not much actively worshipped, but interacted with by shamans regularly. There are also many stories of how the animal god interacted with Pamalt, mostly which end in friendship and them doing each other some favour - in particular, usually the animal gods lend Pamalt some assistance (often by providing him with a tool or weapon) when he fights Vovisibor. And he in turn assists them, usually by settling a dispute or by interceding so a foreign power can solve an animal god problem. In Umathela, among humans he is known, but generally worshipped as a major deity that is part of Earth worship, as Flamal or the Land goddesses are in Genertela. He may also provide shamanic secrets like an expanded version of the Earth Witch tradition. The Aldryami may invoke him in ceremonies about their rulership over the land. In Fonrit. as I've argued previously, Pamalt is known widely, and more or less always has been. Amongst the Garangordites, he is acknowledged but mostly only in word - he is considered to have a role as the origin of sovereignty, but his ways are outdated and suitable only for the (rural, uncivilised, and derided) past, and authority has passed to Garangordos - and besides, the very urbanised population have little interest in the pure powers of the elements, but mostly stick with deities of professional specialisation. Among the Pure Doctrine Freedomists of Katele etc, a very rigid formal version of his cult exists - where Pamalt rulership in Jolar etc works mostly through long, involved, talking through decisions until some form of rough consensus is found, and when that cannot be found tensions are often resolved by dissenters simply leaving, in Katele it has become complex, bureaucratic, and a decision may be arrived at as much through adroit manipulation of procedural rules as through real consensus - or a frustrated leader resorts to more direct means, and finds justification later. The magic of Pamalt remains powerful, however, and magicians have rules for the use of a big hierarchy of powerful earth spirits in particular, and may resist Garangordite aggression via invoking powerful Earth spirits in juge ceremonies. And in Fonrit generally, Pamalt as the Earth King is also known as an ancient shamanic tradition, especially among the Agimori population, but seldom rises above the level of folk tradition among the rural poor (and is actively suppressed by the Glorious Ones if it does). There may be occasional places where it rises higher for a community that has thrown off Garangordite rule, and some places where it (like voudou traditions in Haiti) forms the core of a 'secret counter government', which sometimes brings them into alliance with darker powers also worshipped in secret shamanic rites. All of these things can be seen as a corruption or misunderstanding of the true way of Pamalt, but that's Fonrit for you.

In my (Red Cow) game, Ragnaglar, though no longer surviving as a separate cult, is a sort of secret sub-cult of Orlanth, a hidden Thunder Brother, able to receive magic from Orlanth worship because the kinship cannot be denied. This may only be the case for those clans, like the Red Cow, in which occasionally ogres are born to human bloodlines. The ogres in the clan go through a sort of perverse initiation that starts out resembling Orlanth initiation until, they are driven from his hall. I admit this is largely for play reasons, so ogres aren’t immediately obvious as that one guy who has no obvious magic of Orlanth or other public deities,

General Guidelines - - any NPC that is given a proper description (not just a name in passing) is probably at least as good as the starting PCs, and probably better, if you need stats for them at all. - The Runes that are in the NPC description are all at least 70%-80%, and if they are a Devotee will be at least % in their cult runes. - any character that is a Devotee in HQ will be a Rune Lord or Rune Priest at least in RQG, and will have the appropriate advantages and the required skills at at least 90-100% or more. - their keyword is roughly equivalent to profession in RQG - give them the skills they need for that profession at a high level. Thane is roughly Noble. - HQG talks about Lunar Phases - any character that has a Lunar Phase will be a member of a Lunar specialty cult (usually a Seven Mothers sub-cult), and will be able to use their Moon Rune in place of another rune to cast magic (in addition to normal Moon magic), and probably has access to an extra spell or two either via that means eg Deezola might be able to cast some Earth spells, using her Moon rune in place of Eartth) or via one of the existing runes (eg Yanafals Tarnils can cast True Sword using their Death Rune or using their Moon Rune as their Death Rune if it is higher. Until we have the RQG writeup (well, some of us have access to the GenCon draft, if anyone wants to summarise) that will do - you should be able to wing it from the Pavis writeup.

The Purification Rune was a creation of the God Learners/ Zistori, and may have been more a goal than a reality. Or if they did succeed in creating meaningful Purification Rune magic, would it keep working after the fall of the God Learners?

To the extent that the Masloi are a sea-going foreign culture, the local land gods are of limited relevance. They are, however, no longer a sea-going foreign culture. Pamalt is about as relevant to them as, say, Genert was to Fronela - a significant mythic figure that mostly appears as a foreign power. Only Pamalt isn't dead. Likewise. The historical connection is much more recent - but the Pamalt pantheon are still related to some nearby peoples and geography. No, his role was explicitly overridden in a way that requires explanatory reference - the myths of the Garangordites are explained in terms of the Pamalt cycle. In other words, its much more like the role of Jernotia, Orogeria, Lesilla, Antirius, etc in the Lunar heartland. Or saying the Kodigvari are unknown in Esrolia. That the Garangordites felt it necessary to explicitly recreate the divine structure of the Pamalt cycle makes it clear that the Pamalt pantheon was known in Fonrit prior to Garangordos, and regarded as vitally important - and that the Garangordites reference Pamalt myth to explain why certain acts were taken ensures it is remembered. And since we discussing earth and land deities, the most significant deity outside the Glorious Ones and Ompalam is probably the millet goddess (others are locally more powerful, but less widespread). It is also worth noting, in modern Pamaltela, the existence of the Pure Doctrine Freedomists who worship the Pamalt pantheon and explicitly acknowledge them as the ancestors of the modern Fonritian peoples. So there are literally purist worshippers of the whole Pamalt pantheon in Kareeshtu. It is certainly true that Fonrit was ruled by the Vadeli or Artmali, but it also contains many dark-skinned people who mostly believe themselves to be descended from the Doraddi. It is true that in Maslo and Umathela the Pamalt pantheon are mostly known as enemy pantheons - but they are still the original earth gods of the region (the gods of Umathela and Maslo are explicitly not native as part of their mythology), and known at least partly for that. They acknowledge the local earth goddesses just as the Seshnelans acknowledge Seshna Likita and the Lunars acknowledge Oria. Not worshipped, but known. Remember, in the Tishamto era the Doraddi pantheon was a lot more civilised, and included contact with the coast. The Artmali were far more sea focussed, but there are still Tishamto era coastal travel (think about why one of the Esiti is the sea deity, even though the modern Doraddi have almost no contact with the coast). And also that the Artmali and Vadeli empires included huge numbers of Doraddi slaves, who retained their own worship - particularly of Balumbasta. Anyway, this is all a relatively ridiculous aside because you wanted to quibble with one offhand comment about how some aspects of Doraddi myth must have confused the theyalans. The Doraddi pantheon were very clearly known to the Fonritians, and both the Theyalans and Westerners had contact with the Fonritians (as did, not that matter, the Masloi and the Umathelans).

I think expanding to Prax and Pavis is a bit of an obvious next step. Rangers work well as Praxian warriors given the Praxian mount feat and a little tweaking, and I think a transformation of the Druid class into Shaman would work pretty well.

The Trickster class bugged me a bit. It was a fine implementation of ONE aspect of the Trickster, and not necessarily that core an aspect, and excluded many others. It seemed to have no Illusion powers at all, really, for example

I would have done a LOT more of what they did with the Rebel and have some Talents that you can only take if you have the appropriate personal Rune, which by default trends you towards a cult. Take a generic class like Warrior and add a bunch of Talents and abilities and Feats (some of which are likely generic) that you can only take with the appropriate rune, and you have a class that could be Orlanthi, Argan Argar, or Elmal depending on your Runes. Or something like cleric Domains applied much more widely. I also found that there was a strong tendency to make the new classes more complicated than the old ones, and I'm not sure that worked that well. If you want very complex specific characters, quite possibly dual-classing is a better mechanic for that. If felt like 13thAIG was 13th Age advanced. I wanted it so that if you wanted to play a simple straight forward Warrior or Barbarian, that your character was just as 'Gloranthan'.

Joerg - the Pamalt pantheon are known in other parts of Pamaltela, not just the southern plains, even if they are not the primary deities, including Fonrit. And while the Theyalans never tried to conquer Pamaltela as the Middle Sea Empire did, they had trade contact, etc. Admittedly there was never the same level of contact as the Six Legged Empire trying to conquer them etc. The God Learners certainly tried to interpret the Doraddi deities analogously to the Theyalan Earth pantheon. David

Pamaltela has grain goddesses (though the plants are not cereals). Curu is the grain goddess of squaa, the main grain in Tarien. Nomiama is the grain goddess of bloodbean, the main grain in Jolar. Sedaia is the grain goddess of lagniappe, common in Kothar (and I think somewhat like a lentil maybe? Made into patties, anyway). And Mwara is the grain goddess of sweetgrass, a plant from Zamokil (that is not, in fact, a grass). They are friendly, just their role is different because Pamalt is still around. And Pamaltelan religion cares a lot less about trying to construct consistent genealogies of their deities, which must have confused both the theyalans and the Westerners.

While I'm at it, anyone have any info on the magical units of the Tarsh Exiles military from Dragon Pass, besides what is in Tarsh In Flames? That is the Old School, Moon Haters and Baron's Friends units in particular. Which Baron? Mularik? Tarsh In Flames implies the magicians of the Old School are anti-Hon-Eel Earth cultists, and the Moon Haters are tribal warriors (which doesn't really explain why they are magicians). Also, the Twins - the Exiles hero unit - the twin children of Arim returned, or something else?

Thank you David, I had forgotten about Tarsh in Flames, and somehow missed it on my initial scan. I've found my copy now. I notice it mentions a planned Tarsh Liberated! book to be release by Issaries Inc. set in the 1630s. I wonder if any trace of that project survives, or who might have been working on it?

The soul and the shadow are different things. It is the lower soul, yes, the part that goes into the underworld - but it is different to Kazkurtum, the shadow. Bijiif isn't particularly tyrannical or arbitrary - just impotent and dead. Kazkurtum, the shadow, is the absense of rule. In Lunar parlance, the Nysalor part would be the Seventh part, the greater consciousness.

She is healing the wounded from a great battle against Darkness (or any other enemy but Chaos). She heals and heals and the wounded keep coming at an in increasing rate. The answer is to heal the enemy - and so creating peace between the two sides.

Tarsh War has the Marantaros tribe and the Iristaros clans, both Old Tarsh Exiles and part of the KeroFini. Technically I think the Marantaros is a tribe reduced to a clan.

We have many mentions of one Tarshite clan - the Orindori, Fazzur's clan - but I can't find any information about any of the others. Does anyone have info about any other Tarshite clans?

Is Uralda the only cow deity? Are you sure some of those other cow deities aren't just the same being under a different name, from a different culture? How would you tell? Ah yes, those famously simple and uncomplicated deities Ernalda and Elmal. Ernalda who wouldn't possibly already have connections to various mystic, animist and sorcerous (among the Aeolians) paths? Who notoriously raises all sorts of complex issues about identity? Elmal, who might or might not be Yelmalio, who in turn might have once been closely associated with mysticism, and might raise even more questions about identity? Yes, simple uncomplicated examples that will definitely convince us all that the otherworlds are places that don't raise any complicated questions about identity and essential nature at all.

The Yinkin cult is one that we only know of theist approaches to, sure. But a better example might be Odayla that is both a theist deity and has significant spirit magic connections. Would it really surprise anyone if a Serkos (the spirit tradition way to approach Odayla) was more developed outside Sartar somewhere and had access to the powerful core magic of transforming into a bear, just like the Hsunchen do (or maybe that 'project your spirit in bear form' thing IS the animist approach??) Of if the 'Moon Bear' cult of Sylila that was written up in the past, where the Lunars had developed their own approach to Odayla via the Red Goddess riding the Star Bear, allowed a mystic approach to the same god? Or some Seshnelan Bear society guy secretly had sorcery that allowed some kind of amazing Bear magic that looked suspiciously similar, and was known to be a tradition evolved based on ancient bear hsunchen practices? I'm not saying any individual person is likely to be able to work with all the multiple approaches at once, unless they are an Illuminate who goes out of their way to investigate them. I'm rather saying that multiple approaches might exist, that those who work with them might acknowledge the connection to the same being, and in (relatively uncommon) they might be integrated enough that worshipper can participate in multiple forms of worship (as they do with Urox/Storm Bull). And when we get back to Yinkin, are we really sure that there is any magical law telling us that Yinkin couldn't be approached via multiple methods in the same way, if only the Yinkini believed it was so? What if their mythology wasn't so entwined with Orlanths, and their cult so thoroughly domesticated and Heortling in practice? Isn't theist Yinkin looking like a weird special case, and a more mixed nature for many animal gods looking more common? I'm not particularly interested in redoing the cosmology as such. But as I said, my read of it is pretty much that the majority view presented there is what most people believe, but the minority view is closer to the actual truth.

If you want to play a game with the Lunars running Pavis, then it isn't that hard to set the timeline back a bit and use the excellent HeroQuest Pavis book. Personally, I'm looking forward to moving the timeline forward. And if you want a campaign where the Empire is in charge and villainous, run a game in Tarsh, get involved in that upcoming civil war! My players have decided that is what my first RQG game will be, and I'm really looking forward to a different take on the struggle against the Empire (one that, at least initially, includes many people who are religiously Lunar). As history advances, the struggle against the Empire moves North, but its a long way from being over.

I am not claiming that there is no difference between gods and spirits, only that it's not a 'hard' difference, but rather a mostly quite soft one. A large proportion of otherworld entities, quite likely a majority, are more effectively interacted with by particular magical approaches, and to some extent, probably a large extent, that is intrinsic to their nature. I would imagine something along the lines of the four otherworlds forming overlapping Venn diagrams, and furthermore the lines with which those diagrams are drawn being very fuzzy indeed. I clearly align with the minority view here. Just because it is a minority view doesn't mean it is wrong. Most of those scholars aren't even Illuminated, what would they know. And they are probably working from earlier editions of the rules sources. If some otherworld entities are of a mixed nature, and always have been, that tend to indicate that the otherworlds aren't really distinct and separate, but overlap to at least some extent, right?

My players (or groups I know of) have never really expressed a desire to get into the real worst of Glorantha - Mallia, Thed, etc. - but I've had ogre PCs, Illuminates, etc. But I've certainly had players want to play PCs that would be considered monstrous by modern standards, and thats not even considered weird. An Uroxi is, for example, clearly a menace to society. My point is really that you don't want good rules for evil monsters because players will want to play them - that isn't really my experience. My point is that we want good rules for evil monsters because that is how RuneQuest works - its part of the experience that your villains can be developed in the same rich detail as other NPCs. This is in contrast to, eg 13th Age or HeroQuest which is the opposite, total NPC asymmetry - meaning most NPCs are, statwise, the bare minimum needed to fit them.

Glorantha has always, right from the start, had a high degree of 'NPC symmetry'. Its basically worked on the idea that player characters and non-player characters work to the same basic rules. Literally, in RQ1, there was Black Fang, a cult that seems mostly intended for NPC villains. Its been a bit of a practical issue for RQ (its a lot harder to improvise encounters on the fly for RQ than for many other games), and a major part of RuneQuests gritty, simulationist feel. And RQ2 really doubled down on it with Cults of Terror, now seen as an absolute groundbreaking product for the entire RPG genre. But its never meant that PCs are supposed to want to be part of them. Wanting good rules for playable Thed or Mallia or Crimson Bat cultists is not the same as thinking players should play them - and I've appreciated the detail that goes into describing those cults many many times as a GM and have never had a PC want to play one. And, of course, moral ambiguity is part of the RQ 'flavour' as well. I certainly have had PCs that want to play Illuminates, Zorak Zoran cultists, assassins, etc. I don't think wanting the rules for villainous NPCs to work to work consistently is problematic.

I understand that CHA means leadership not charm. But it is a change. Formerly, some Swords of Humakts were leaders - and some were duelists, and some were champions supported by patrons, with no great need to get others to follow them. Given that they are generally "cold, fatalistic, merciless, and taciturn", it seems safe to assume that at least some of them were not overly charismatic.

Yes, it is true, that a general so inspiring that their troops will follow them into the valley of the shadow of death etc sounds like one model for a sword. But only one. And the tactiturn loner, the monk of death, etc are pretty valid as well. A Sword of Humakt with 18 CHA works. But it doesn't really work as a requirement - it kind of changes the whole feel of the cult. I think it is a rule I will be disregarding mostly.

Because it makes up an entirely new spiritual practice, as far as I can tell just to try to win an argument with me (in that I don't think the idea of either cult having a practice of summoning only a small subset of their ancestral line, quite separately to other ancestor worship rites, has even been raised by anyone before this discussion). If you don't like it, just ignoring the issue I mention (and sticking to the letter of the rules) would seem a much simpler and more elegant solution, as I suggested. I merely disagreed with the reasoning of this specific argument. How would one disagree with your reasoning, citing evidence etc, without you finding it belligerent?