Joerg

It has become a shorthand for "I don't think you are approaching this canonically, but keep on talking, maybe I can re-align your ideas with my understanding of canon". This does come across as a grognard wording... Think of it as a protective spell against the gift-bringers of the Church of Canon. They tend to be grognards, and they need a language they can understand. Basically, there are a lot of grognards about, and they stem from different periods of sentimental memories. There are those who never forgave Chaosium that there was a newer edition than RQ2, there are grognards for the time when APA-Zines were the outlet for minutiae, there are grognards for the RQ3-Renaissance and the Fanzine culture accompanying it, there are grognards for the shared creativity that stemmed from the RQ-Daily and the successor Digests (raises hand here), there are grognards for the explosion of new deity names and subcults that ramped up in the nineties and erupted in Thunder Rebels subsequent HW/HQ1 products, etc. And rather than throwing out curmudgeonly rants every time, these grognards calm themselves with this four rune mantra - -Truth- -Storm- -Mastery- -Beast- It never was meant to bite. It was (and is) meant to bridle. The mantra is a coping mechanism. The dilemma that every IP holder for a fictional setting has is that the fans will want a) that all "facts" that they learned remain unshakeably true, b) that their hard won own conclusions from the facts remain unshaken, and c) that there is new material for them to peruse without harming a) or b). There are settings that have a slightly better track record for a) than Glorantha, and b) is a hopeless endeavor for the publisher as there will be opposing views among the fans. Point c) is the hard one - the bridle on the creativity of the producers of content. There is a form of community grognardism, too - the defense of fanon, wide-spread agreement on fan conclusions that were not measured against the collection of "facts" by the IP-holder. Now here is a problem that exists for Glorantha. There is no single well accessible collection of all the "facts" and sources for Glorantha. Jeff may hold the accumulated paper trail of official Gloranthan design in his vault in Berlin, and a huge load of digital data, but he has to dive into various sources for checking facts. Greg himself had accumulated some systematic development notes, but there were times when the (only) master copy for a place like Sartar or Tarsh had gone AWOL, and new material could not hold its ground against this lost access to canon. Then there are earlier starts at fiction or world-building which were later found to be not quite consistent with the development of the world. Ethilrist's mention of the Western Jungle is a very good example of this, as is the map of the Lunar Empire which has a central crater almost as wide as the coast line between Seshnela and Kralorela. Just because a source is no longer deemed canonical doesn't mean that its entire content has become "post-canonical" - that fallacy of e.g. the Glorantha Wikia is a huge waste. Salvaging does not feel very creative. Salvaging stuff into canon becomes problematic when the source is "stuff by Greg Stafford and the main author who pushed his pet theory of the week in that fanzine article" (or worse, Hero Wars or HQ1 official release). There have been a number of incidents where the dizzy heights of being main author or editor in chief of a crucial production have gone off on courses which were never intended. And as others would reference those sources for further input, the discrepancies multiply. The lack of time to do research and fact checking that the Mongoose RQ authors were subject to led to a presentation of Glorantha that varied very much already in its foundational documents. Some Hero Wars and HQ1 products suffered from injections of ego. Then there was a multitude of "false friends" (used in linguistics to describe words in another language that sound like something from your own, but have a quite different meaning), especially the entire "Malkioni Church" and "Medieval Malkionism" stuff. One tragic case for this is Jamie Revell's excellent work on "The Book of Glorious Joy" and "Kingdom of the Flame Sword", relying on the terminology that included "knight" and "church" and the look and feel of RQ3 Genertela Box for Loskalm and Tanisor ("Seshnela"). The latest victim is "we don't work derived from this licensed property which was placed in the Chaosium Glorantha campaign here as canonical any more". Details from the Chaosium campaign had "leaked" into the fanon, and had been picked up by creative enthusiasts. Chaosium did have the license to publish those settings at the time, creating a different legal situation from now (more than thirty years later), so it was quite natural for fans of Chaosium to trust the Chaosium sources as near-canonical. A similar victim are public cooperations of fans creating shared detail from their campaigns, influencing one another. And occasionally entering canon. Freeform games and myths share a few traits - they create intensive memories, and they include a lot of silliness. Freeforms have a history of influencing many peoples' Glorantha by planting memories from freeforming experiences, using the background of those freeform characters and their networking to enrichen peoples' pen-and-paper games, or subsequent freeforms. The Gloranthan freeforms have influenced a lot of games - especially when details were shared via the internet. Using those fan-created version of a networked background synchronized quite a few Glorantha campaigns. Thus we find names from Monty Python sketches blown up to near canonicity in shared fan background. And grognardism based on this. It was this community which held the Glorantha hobby alive throughout the years of no official gaming content. YG<M/W>V was meant to honor those communally exchanged and propagated creative works. I can understand that this kind of grognardism may grate if one doesn't have any sentimental ties to those periods in the real world history of Glorantha. If RQG or HQG or 13G is your first contact with the setting, you probably couldn't care less about decades-old fan-created material. And I guess by the time Jeff may pass on the standard to a future chief creative director, those experiences may be forgotten for good. For now, there are grognards about. With cherished memories (and cash to throw at the new offerings of Gloranthan goodness). Some of them may allow you to feed or pet them.

I beg to differ. If a deity's position is based on selfish behavior at the cost of others, that is a sign of disorder. If that leads to a new world order, the trick is still on-going. Yes, this is a fairly broad strike. And I am not saying that worshipers of Yelm or Orlanth are tricksters. I am saying that these gods have a Trickster aspect, and one that a Trickster cultist may have access to, somewhere. Possibly quite epic stuff - a Yelm Trickster might be able to create a Sunstop. In all likelihood at the price of an infernal web manifesting and tieing that Trickster to the Sun Disk for as long as Time continues, or at the price of being slain as the spell ends. The spell may have only a local effect, as it changes the nature of Time, and those outside of the affected area may remain unaware of that spell. Or to demonstrate the weakness of the new way. It is possible that successful rulers can amputate that Trickster, to be plagued by that piece of themselves as an external threat. In case of Mikaday, this might be how Sekever or his minions came into being. But it may just be an on-going trick, possibly accidentally frozen by the Compromise, possibly backfiring against the Trickster's evil plan. "Holy shit, this actually works? Now how do I get out of this? Help!"

Rootless PCs won't have much opportunity to profit from the economy rules or possibly even from the holy days rune point recovery rules unless they bought themselves into a local temple holding appropriate rites. But then, that's the benefit of being rootless hobos.

Andins are an Underworld (Sortum...) race come to the light of day. Presumably humanoid, with grotesque heads. Threatening dentistry and protruding or extra sets of toothed mandibles optional. But then, this applies to all underworld creatures depicted so far, including the Dara Happan hell lords and that one-shot underworld invaders in the Hero Wars Narrators Book scenario. But then, they (or just some of them) might just as well look and move like the Skeksis race from Jim Henson's "The Dark Crystal". There is no reason to assume that all Andins follow the same body or dentistry plan - there may well be tribes with quite distinct features, if you wish there to be. Some may even be attractive (at least until they open their mouths). One thing the Andins don't appear to be is matriarchal. But then, Zorak Zoran and Argan Argar are probably the two troll cults with the most human interaction. We do have imagery for the Huan-to (RQG-Bestiary) and the Gorgers (RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary), two antigod races coming from the same or a very similar source. The Gorgers do look like another type of lean trolls, the Huan-to certainly less so, but then their description has been quite different from uz, too.

To be honest, I am surprised by that interpretation of "nonstackable". To me, the flag "nonstackable" indicates that the spell cannot be turned into a more powerful verstion by putting an additional amount of rune points into it, unlike say "Shield" which comes with an effect number. I see no reason why a spell like True Weapon should not be extended.

The forum needs rules, the contributors need sanity. The silent readers... they are pretty much on their own. A lot of stuff some people see as controversial has already been discussed, commented, applauded or badmouthed. I'll say congratulations to Martin to have seen this mammoth project through.

Arkat's very existence was a trick played on the Brithini Way of Life. It may not be fair to blame Arkat for bearing this trickster's blessing, and his subsequent career may be all about dealing with that. But Arkat and the Brithini crusade against Gbaji was a classical scapegoat externalization of a problem and throwing it at another problem. But then, the entire scapegoat rite is the community tricking Fate or whichever other power may be involved. Any big change, the Trickster is there - and Bolongo is left out of quite a few of Pamalt's actions. Being "clever" is disruptive. So is innovation. Creating the rules and then adhering to them is against Trickster nature, but if the rules are a cheat in themselves, breaking them at once isn't mandatory. Pamalt's division of his lands between the forests and the lineage plant veldt may be fair, but how he did it wasn't honest. Every trick played is a manifestation of the Trickster. And it will nest in. There will be more opportunities, and each following one lowers the aversion against using those means again. Some deities manage to externalize those urges, creating a scapegoat aspect that they can sever. Except when... A trickster holding his own chain. Still struggling with that nature. Sending himself into exile... you could mark that down as being consistent and honorable, but viewed from a trickster's stool, it is a magnificent trick. Made even better when he cuckolded himself... This entire "ruler of..." stick is a huge trick played on the world. Yelm sold his pyramid scheme by which he had usurped rulership as the Golden Age - now that's an achievement worthy of the Trickster's Hall of Fame. He got drunk and stuporous on his own power afterwards, though, but that's a Trickster's bane, too. (As is being sent to Hell for it.) Zzabur is a trickster of the highest caliber. He betrayed just about everybody, including Malkion, brought willful destruction on those who displeased him, holds his population in thrall with a rather empty promise. All of these deities that used tricks are tricks waiting to be released. And possibly dampened somewhat by greater insights picked up at some revelation. Which may be little more than just another trick. Is it productive to view the world this way? Or is it a trick? The author of the world named himself an Arkati Shaman Trickster. Go figure. Trickster is in all those things, and in all those perpretators. Tricksters love rules. Rules that make others do things that can be exploited, rules that they can abuse in the spirit while obeying them to the letter. A trickster in a setting without rules has few if any chances to be. Rules lawyers are tricksters. Taking that social role - how is that different from being the Trickster? Not taking the role predictably all the time - again, how is that different? Which, in itself, mandates this rule to be broken. And many of the Trickster entities are consistent most of the time. You won't find Raven swimming or deep underground, except when he became a victim of his own tricks and the myth gives you the opportunity to externalize one of your tricks by having him commit it for you as repayment for saving him. Letting him drown may be rewarded positively, too... The only way to avoid the dark side is innocence - which makes Voria one of the few deities that may be exempt from being a Trickster at times. But then, innocence itself is a great temptation to seduce the rest of the world. Everything after the Green Age. Tricksters adore the Green Age. And they adore breaking it. I think the entire distinction is really about externalizing the Trickster, about clinging to the delusion that "it isn't me".

Maran Gor evidently has rites for their priestesses' cannibalism - presumably practiced on the bodies of the human sacrifices that are powering Shaker's Temple. Stuff done with the proper rites won't turn people into ogres. It doesn't make groups like the Cannibal Cult any less fearsome. The Pentans appear to have some gruesome rites - ppssibly the result of their survival struggles in the Greater Darkness - that allows them to do stuff that would turn others into broo in no time short, Check the names "Eats Women" and "Eater of Flesh" in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.

RQ3 Dorastor: Land of Doom had the former inhabitants of Tork as the Gray Ones, degenerate humans with heaps of Chaos features, low intelligence clouded by madness, zero likability and no goat traits. They and the slime deer were at the bottom of the food chain.

Absolutely. Why wouldn't that work? Sounds like a worth-while career to follow. Steal three or more cows from each temple in Sartar, then donate them to that temple (and participate in the subsequent feast). BTW, the loyalty skill is a passion the player character can roll on to augment abilities used for the benefit of that temple. It doesn't mean that that temple suddenly is loyal to the character, beyond enjoying a good roast.

This could simply be the result of a heroquest challenge between Urvanyar and the Golden Dragon, with two (crucial) Yelmic powers lost to the Sun or Golden Dragon mystic. Sight is the primary sense of Yelm. Being blinded removes Urvanyar from any chance of completing the Ten Tests. Taking his heart... that is less clearly defined in the role of an emperor, and I am inclined to argue that a heartless emperor of Dara Happa wouldn't miss anything that his predecessors had needed to fulfill their position. Jar-eel lost her heart in battles against Sartar at least twice - once to Harrek, once to Annstad.

The faults and crimes of the Archduchy of Slontos were many in their wars against the Kingdom of Night and the EWF. The Devastation was a reckoning for all of that. The Trickster Temple was a symptom, but certainly not the entire disease. Kill as in capital K separation that wasn't reversible. Much like Umath never recovered from being slain despite Death not yet having been invented. The Horned Serpent, so yes, pretty identical. At least as far as the Fiwan (the local name for the Hsunchen) were concerned. The usual number. Apart from the greater and lesser hydras and possibly chaotic stoorworms, there are no draconic beings on Pamaltela. The Dinosaurs of Slon appear to be a rather recent addition, and free of any proven draconic connection. (Although all it takes is an initiative to claim proof for that connection, quest a bit, and make it so.) With the Horned Serpent firmly located in the Spirit World, no other (horned, winged, otherwise attributed) serpent deities manifested in Pamaltela. Pamaltela had its Chaos invasion, but fought it off. The south experienced the Firespill when the Sky Dome emptied some of its fire to the Surface World after having been pushed back southwards by Kalikos (defining the tilt of the Sky Dome within Time). Various neighbors invaded - the Vadeli from the West, the Antigods of Shekdurba from the East, the Oceans from all around, the Artmali from above - and a number of refugees arrived, like the Thinobutans (Maslo, Thinokos, Kimos). According to the Doraddi, the Aldryami are an invasive species, too, but the Aldryami have an ancient history of being allied to Pamalt. Possibly "the Other Pamalt" (as in Monty Python's "the other Kilimanjaro"). That said, the Doraddi invaded the coastal forests of Banamba, too. The Gods War was exciting enough in Pamaltela. Vovisibor aka Filth Which Walks made a deep incursion to the cental lands of Jolar, leaving destruction and possibly annihilation behind, but his advance was turned back by Pamalt using his Necklace, and then Pamalt and his followers pursued and overcame Vovisibor far in the north (still south of Magasta's Pool, though). The Doraddi voluntarily removed themselves from their previous urban civilization, electing a mix of nomadic and sedentary oasis life in the Veldt, while those who had followed Pamalt into the North may have been tricked by Bolongo (gotta stay on topic...) into retaining urban culture and other achievements. They would become peoples like the Fonritians - especially the Banambans, which have very little if any admixture of Artmali ancestry - or the Exigers of the Mari Mountains. Nandan as a player-cult is fairly un-exciting - no wild quests, remained alive/awake when Ernalda had gone to sleep, gave birth and nourishment despite the lack of organs to do so normally. Nothing relevant while on a normal adventure/problem solving mission, other than the key to Ernaldan magic which of course can be wielded by female player characters at least as well. Ernala cult in the hard mode... But then, Vinga is as un-exciting, except that the woes of the woman warrior are all in her myths and stories.00 Following some ex-cathedra statements about Vinga by Greg there was a debate (which caused some dysphoria in previous Vinga fans) about VInga being a husband cult and "not into men" (perceived as "at all"), a reaction which surprised and saddened Greg at the time. If you build a structure to house Tricksters, wouldn't you build it pretty fool-proof to keep maintenance cost down? The land it was built on has been lowered below sea level by the Devastation of the Vent, but apart from that mighty shake-up, there was no additional attack on the structure. At the very least, they made it easy for lazy Tricksters to achieve as complete a set of Rune and spirit maic as they wanted and could afford. In addition, the temple provided a ready source of Tricksters for God Learner raids into the Hero Plane enabling certain transitions or insertions. You might regard the temple as a detached section of a God Learner university, with "graduates" to be harvested for the occasional use in heroquesting. Because nobody sane (hybris is a form of insanity, after all) would allow more than a hundred Tricksters permanently in one place. That temple in Slontos was the one glaring exception to this rule. Argrath's Warlocks of the Magical Union include Tricksters. They may work alongside the Black Fang Brotherhood. Drona the Earth King of western Fronela might have a similarly tolerant position towards Eurmal Friend of Men. The occasional goddess was "blessed" to give birth to a re-incarnation of Eurmal and priestesses of these goddesses may possibly allow some maternal feelings for that offspring. Uleria offered herself to the Boggles, and tamed them (enough to stop them from destrying the Spike) by fulfilling their desire. At least temporarily, and a temporarily neutralized Trickster is about the best outcome you can hope for. IMO he isn't, as his career was way too consistent and goal-oriented. While a Trickster can impersonate a straight-laced person for quite a while (possibly hiding his outbreaks o glee at how the people interacting with him get duped), keeping things together for half a century, even having been dragged down to Hell, is pretty irregular for a Trickster. A Trickster impersonating a priest of Dayzatar for his entire life has effectively become a priest of Dayzatar, with the trick on him.

Some clan or tribal towns are numbered among the cities (Runegate, Clearwine). Other places like Dangerford or Red Cow Fort aren't far away from similar status. That doesn't prevent a clan or two to provide a significant portion of the city's population. Sartar didn't build is cities in empty spaces (apart from Duckpoint). A city that isn't occupying an alpine valley can easily support two agricultural clans inside its walls. Compare the Trypolye mega-villages... That depends on how distant that clan is from the city. If it is within three hour's ride (or better walk), the hurdle to participate in clan events and festivals is a lot lower than for a clan that lives two day's travel or more from the city. People with ties to rural clans form sort of expat communities inside the city, inside the greater envelope of the tribal community. Depending on the status of such clansfolk in other organisations inside the city (a major specialist temple, a craft or merchant guild), that tribal community can become the ersatz-clan - it certainly has a sufficiently high number of members. But basically, on the high holy days a normal mortal can participate in the rites only at one place. While it is possible to divide up those days of attendance (and make up for absences by extracurricular temple days in either location), that doesn't help with the primary self-identification of that city-dweller. The ground in the city will be owned by the constituent tribes, temples, and guilds, with most city-dwellers tenants of one of these (not in the sense of semi-free, but in the sense of paying a rent-like tax to the land-owner). The only problem with this is that other than Boldhome, none of the cities has enough inhabitants to support specialized crafters' guilds. At the very best, a metal-worker, leather-worker and wood-worker guild might be feasible for a place like Jonstown, whereas Boldhome might have separate guilds for silversmiths and gemcutters. That's an optimistic picture you are painting there... Many of those "rural hicks" make part of their living from providing shelter and services for people traveling on the roads - especially the side roads. They will have learned when to drive their cattle into the city to maybe squeeze a few extra coins out of the market.

Hey, the forum mites are usually wiiling to provide some fact-checking and even initial research. They only sharpen the axes when such readily available source of information is ignored.

All of those places have rather southerly latitudes compared to the agricutural regions of e.g. Denmark (a 10 degree difference!). In historical times, rye was grown inland of the Lofoten, at about 70° latitude (20° north of Montreal). The harvest wasn't that productive, but sowing the grain brought it over the winter better than exposing it to mice in the storage. When the dried cod trade was a regular thing, the fisherfolk there would stop sowing the rye and just trade whatever they needed for their fish. Kalikos quests: Actually, the Kalikos quest thwarted by Argrath was/is going to be organized when Sheng was/will be at large. No idea who keeps those quests going, and supplied with moonrock, but nobody is afraid of global warming in Peloria.

Yes, even the recent spin-off set in Germany is a police-procedural. Yes. There is a fairly big number of magically or ethnically special people who aren't Newtonian mages, but are policed by them. Normal police is aware of the unit for the crazy cases (the name "Folly" has several meanings...) and is happy to hand things off to the (very few) informed people on their staff. While the setting is less grim and generally not cthulhuid, there are certain parallels to the Laundry novels. Not by your average muggle. Including New Age or occultist muggles whose activities may nevertheless contribute to feeding magical needs of some of the other supranaturals.

Sacrifices of coin feel fairly modern... So each cow gives you a 1% bonus, and five cows give you a 2% permanent raise in the passion. Praxian herd beasts probably translate similarly. Or in other words, go raid your neighbors, bring three cattle to their next clan rites, and gain loyalty 60% to that wyter/temple?

All of that, plus the non-Trickster God Learner activities that Slontos was infamous for, like "greek fire" and sorcerous war machines. Unlike Seshnela, Slontos had local Orlanthi (though not Heortlings), and learned a lot about Orlanth and Ernalda from them by forcing God Learners into their myths. The Goddess Switch wasn't performed here by accident, but because it had been well "researched" and exploited. The event is also known as "The Devastation of the Vent", as that is where the three meter waves through solid land emerged from. It looks like something propagating from whatever it was that the Luatha planted into the Seshnelan peninsula, and spread out slowly. 1049 it affected Seshnela, in 1050 the Vent sent out its devastation, and in 1051 the Dragon's Awakening Shudder did its part of re-drawing the coasts of the continent. You'd have to be a sorry trickster if you cannot cause mischief from being disguised and actively hunted for... If there ever was a counter-culture, the Tricksters fit that bill. Ratslaff is the origin of the Disorder Rune, one of the eight celestial Power deities. Bolongo is the God-Slayer of Pamaltelan myth, the one who killed Earthmaker (even before there was Death), transforming him into Amuron, the World Spirit. A role as necessary as it is regrettable. Some have the delusion that they aren't. @quackatoa is a disease master in that regard... Basically a divine case of "the Farmer and the Devill", with the opponent making a specific rule, and the trickster finding an unconventional way around that rule. Kadiola was a sea spirit who got rulership over Koraru Bay in a wager by making the local human hero Bornotin build a bridge across the way too wide estuary of the Barueli River, fulfilling an impossible task by that. That's sort of my point. The successful guardians of order have been relying on trickster powers forever. At times they take a companion to do the improper stuff, at times they themselves are the con-man. (While playing the straight person, as part of the con) Genert turning his followers into the Copper Sands and having his own body eaten by Hyena is another case of a Lord tricking the enemy. Basically the same. Find a shrine, complete the demeaning test the shrine guardian will make you undergo, and sacrifice for the rune spell. (Or occasionally, learn the Spirit Spell).

And you don't get my point. While I agree that killing the Bat through a lucky strike or some sort of death by a thousand pinpricks isn't necessarily the great finale it could be, to say that the Bat cannot ever be killed by player characters is not in any way helpful. Things should be achievable. At a cost. In case of doubt, at the cost of your humanity. (And that's a meta-rule in Glorantha...) You say your character was "a hero". What do you mean by that? A troubleshooter for your chief and maybe tribal king (in which case I agree, that's possbly too much of a Monty Haul), or a hero that had been to Hell and back, that had his Self washed off exposed to Ehilm's Flame or the Baths of Nelat? A Sysiphus task doesn't usually make a good roleplaying experience.

If you look at Plentonius grouping the years as 1000K, 100K, 10k, 1000, 100, 10, 1, 10, 100 and arriving at 221 S.T., you are bound to ask what has happened in 1221 S.T. Now Yelmgatha's reign comes with about 27 years delay, but there is a rite in 1220 which does affect the Dara Happan religion. (It takes a whiled for AgartuSay to rule Dara Happa, but he does manage, twice.) The 375 Sun Stop and subsequent changes in dynasties - often accompanied by religious reforms - are absent from Plentonius' math, though. It might have the same importance as the Arthurian legends had to the Norman conquerors. When Plentonius wrote his book, for the first time since the end of the Ice Age the Dara Happans were ruled again by a dynasty from their urban culture. He laid down the official versions of the myths that led to the Founding of Dara Happa with his rather complete account of the Anaxial dynasty and his less convincing reports about the decline of the early "reign of Antirius". His Murharzarm stories have elements which must be fantastic to his contemporary audience already, with gazzam being the source of wealth in riverine Dara Happa. His accounts on Dara Happa before the rivers is .. not really about Dara Happa. I don't think that Plentonius was aware of the Copper Tablets, which show riverine Dara Happa from an elevated point of view (like e.g. the peak of the Spike). The descent of Lodril and ascension of Dayzatar is shown on the first of those tablets. This isn't quite clear. GRoY p.80 says "lost for centuries", which exculpates the Carmanian bull shah conquerors of Dara Happa. Possible earlier points are plenty, and may go hand in hand with some of the changes in Yelm worship and condemnation of Nysalorean practices. On one hand, the GRoY contains a manual for the Ten Tests. Being linked to Khordavu, the protegee of Davu, makes this tome possibly suspect in the anti-Nysalorean movements. One possible point of disappearance is under Heredesh, when the heavily edited Unity List provided a merger of Pelandan and Dara Happan rulers, being over-complete. Yelmgatha challenges this list by providing "proof of absence" for many of those early entries with his copy of the Glorious ReAscent. Any earlier point is possible, as far back as the Gbaji Wars when Vastolf conquered Raibanth.

I am talking about HeroQuest Glorantha first and foremost, although a Dresden Files application of Questworld would have similar means: Gloranthan myth has a different story. Yanafal Tarnils faces Humakt, in a sword duel, and prevails. Morden Defends the Camp (printed in the fiction booklet that came with the boxed Hero Wars set) tells among others how Morden overcomes the Strong Man in an (admittedly tricked) contest of strength. Basically, if there is a myth for it, any such difference can be overcome. As myth is supposed to be silly and surprising at times, there are bound to be stories about "when god X had a hang-over and..." which can be "played" against an avatar of that deity. Of course, the opponent can come prepared for such trickery. "Not today, grasshopper..." A diceless rpg does need a replacement to the frustration a toss of dice can provide to the best thought out player character action. I feel that the case you are making here is close to creating a sacro-sanct Mary Sue, however. I admit to only a cursory familiarity with the Amber setting, with the biggest lasting impression the reply to the question "How do you want to die?" being "trampled to death by elephants while climaxing in sex" (both paraphrased).

It came and killed their previous emperor, then took the heart and eyes of his son (Karvanyar's father). You're doing a great job of confirming my teasings, here, and of course this was written as a tease. But actually, it is only half a joke, at most. There is a reason why the Solar Emperor in Gods War is represented by a humanoid dragon miniature. The ancient Dara Happan empire thrived on gazzam aka dinosaurs as its herds, too. Yelm (or Murharzarm) sits on a dragon throne on the Gods Wall. The Dara Happans have a name for that entity, Kelastan, formerly Burburstus, the Dark Dragon. When Orlanth (in his initiation myth) releases all the imprisoned foreigner gods, he sort of opens Yelm's box of worries, where he had imprisoned all those who he had usurped before. (As such, it was fitting that Orlanth was thrown into this august company...) Among these were Natha, the Red And Black avenger goddess of Pelanda, and a dragon. Another source for a draconic nature of the sun might be the Zzaburite or God Learner systematic of the Beasts, in Anaxial's Roster (p.207). It has Zoamalos, "the Perfect Beast that can be seen in all its glory if you go past the Sun" descending into Somalos the Sun, which in turn created the duality of Hykim and Mikyh below. Now Hykim and Mikyh are well attested as draconic entities. If that is the case, then wouldn't the entities from which they came be draconic (or bestial) in nature, too? According to Plentonius, Yelm claims the conquest of Buburstus. I see that as one of several conquests of previous or rival suns. The Kralori are the only extant group assigning draconic status to the sun emperor of the world. Its successor Metsyla only has Phoenix status. A nice way to say that it reeks of rampant revisionist history. The reign of Dismanthuyar is described with avoidance of all facts but that the Dara Happans were unable to stop the EWF invaders at three battles. Dara Happa stirs - the one Glorantha the Second Age product that has the unmitigated oversight and approval of Greg and Jeff - gives what can might seen as the best factual description of the history of the Dragon Sun in Dara Happa. The EWF has a name for the Dragon Sun mystic already at the time of Elmexdros, and it was this EWF mystic who ascended the ziggurat of Raibanth after defeating the increasingly anti-draconic emperors succeeding Elmexdros. Hurabargarten is the spelling used in Dara Happa Stirs, which is probably close to the original spelling. Lorenkarten the mile (later also known as Labrygon) has been spelled Lorenkargartan, IIRC in context with the Kotor Wars in History of the Heortling Peoples which published the first part of the EWF philosophy papers Greg had prepared for the Second Age licensees. (Of course, it may just be that I feel defensive for people with the component "gartn" in their names...) Still, I feel that the story of Urvanyar the blinded wannabe-emperor is genuine. If your assumption is correct, then this wretched creature which begat Karvanyar may have been the residual spite of the Dara Happan emperors that got shed by the transformed dragon emperor. The Heart of Urvanyar and his eyes may have held magic that qualified the Dragon Sun's ascension: Dara Happan revisionist history certainly has muddled the sources, and EWF sources don't give reliable names and identifications according to History of the Heortling Peoples, which provides the name on p.49 as Hurarbargartan the Great Consumer but doesn't identify him as the Dragon Sun. (Heortling Mythology repeats the same text on p.139 but sheds light on the more orthodox EWF method used by Ingolf, compared to the other New Dragon's Ring leaders.)

As far as I know, they did not. When Refuge still was played in the Chaosium campaign using the Thieves World supplement, Prince Kadakithis and his five guardsmen probably were a Lunar prince (possibly Prince Orontes of Chris Gidlow's Tarsh War fame, at least this was the case in my 1990ies RQ-AiG playtest game) and his Yanafali bodyguards sent to Refuge as face of the Empire and official collector of taxes/tribute. Mainly for authorial freedom and copyright reasons (more so for this product than for City of Carse), Chaosium has distanced themselves from this organically grown story and will produce some material free of external licensing. The absence of Lunar occupation isn't that weird. Both Fazzur and Tatius have way bigger fish to fry, Fazzur aiming for Nochet, Tatius for destroying the Rebel God for good with his chaotic upgrade to the existing types of Reaching Moon temples. In that light, sending an adminstrator sounds like something the Tarshites may have come up with. The moon connection that Prince of Sartar suggested for God Forgot had already been resolved by Jar-eel ("This part I will keep for myself") in 1616. While the Machine Ruins are a dungeon of heroic proportions, there appears to be no major Lunar effort to plunder it (neither by some Dart Competition faction trying to exploit this source of exotic and deadly magic, whether God Learner or dwarven). Harrek's presence makes a major investment here unwise, too.

Sorry about that Zzaburism deviation...

Basically, Sir Isaac Newton went on to write the definitive work on magic after having completed his work on physics. His successors became the guardians of the supernatural. There was a huge magical conflict that used the Second World War to cover up their misdeeds, which wiped out most active mages in Britain (which apparently won). Peter Grant is a modern day policeman, son of an English jazz musician and an African immigrant. He discovers his aptitude for the supranatural when dealing with a mystery case and perceiving transparent witnesses. As a result, he gets assigned to the Folly, Scotland Yard's magical division headed and staffed by the last active Newtonian mage in Britain and his not quite human household aide. Peter gets involved with the family of the new Goddess of River Thames (another African woman...) and starts an apprenticeship in magic. There are a few common themes between this and the Dresden Files, like the neural deterioration that over-use of magic creates in the brains of its practitioners, and the ability to hex modern technology. But both Peter Grant (and his newly discovered German colleague) are policemen first and foremost, then heroic magical apprentices. The books are mystery cases involving supernatural entities and evil mages. Often both in the same story.