metcalph

My opinion on the Against the Demons Originally the grimoire of the Furlandan School, it was developed to combat evil spirits in the Great Darkness. The school had its greatest success in fighting the Enjorelli and after they were vanquished, the school had no external enemies to fight. As a result, the school's magicians turned their attention within themselves, using their magics to purge themselves so they could attain Joy. King Siglat revived the Grimoire. He wanted to cleanse the land of evil influences so the country would become more receptive to Joy. He reinterpreted the teachings of the school from purging the body of evil spirits to one of purging the country of evil spirits. He had the Grimoire taught to his Men-of-All so they could see the signs of wickedness, summon the responsible spirits and remove them. The Men-of-All who carried out the cleansings were part of the First Brothers rather than the Furlandan School so Siglat did not trust wizards no matter how much they sang Hrestol's praises. Cleansing a land usually involves summoning the local populace (a village or a town), questioning them on anything bad that has happened to them over the past year. Armed with such a knowledge, the Men-of-All leads the population in summoning the spirit whereupon they struggle to imprison it within an energy prison to be disposed of later. In cases of magical calamities, the Men-of-All are often more coercive in their questioning if they suspect someone within the community is actively aiding the spirit. Captured spirits are usually contained within a nearby fort dedicated to holding energy prisons. The Men-of-All often have carry imprisoned spirits working their misdeeds through penal servitude. The Men-of-All usually demonize these spirits so they will confer spell knowledge rather than function as a charm.,

I disagree strongly.

Well IMO the Bardan School is has many of the problems that plagued Issaries cult writeups at the time - it isn't very good to such an extent that it's no longer canonical and unlikely to have anything written about it in the future.,

Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach would be Dismiss and Darkness. Harmony of the Parts would be Summon and Harmony (any effect which is called into being is best treated as a summons) Enter the Room without Doors would be Separate and Earth. That is if the Room exists on the mortal plane. If it doesn't, then I would use Summon and Magic (in effect you are summoning yourself into the Room without Doors and Magic is used for communication between the worlds).

As an example of what I spoke about the focus of the schools changing over time, here's a little thought I had about the Zendalmathan School to resolve the inherent contradiction about an Archimedian Engineering School that rejects Empircism (deriving knowledge from sense-experience). The School once had an argument with a God Learner about the path of a thrown stone. The school argued that the path should resemble a circle while the God Learner proved arc of the stone was not that of a circle. True to their philosophy, the school denounced the arc as a corrupt sign of Makan and set about making up a stone-thrower that would fling its payload in the circle's arc. The magics required to produce such an effect would counter Makan's evil influence and thus be used to free humanity from its grasp. That work is ongoing and the school Still has not built its desired circle thrower. They laboriously build enchanted catapults, carefully calculating the effect of the spells and fire the payload only to end in failure. After it was reasoned correctly that the size of the catapult was a crucial factor (Makan would have trouble corrupting a larger catapult than he would a small one), the School has been building bigger and bigger catapults. Their best effort can hurl a stone weighing a ton a full mile ("doing the ton" so the school labels the milestone). Their failed designs are not thrown on the scrapheap but bought by the Kingdom of Loskalm for their defences. An unusual feature of these catapults is that the School quickly worked out the way to increase the effect of Makan upon a projectile. All the school's catapults can be used in such a matter. The stone travels in a straight line with no visible curvature in flight. The stone gradually slows down until it reaches stillness whereupon it falls to the earth straight down.

You speak of the Furlandan School as it still exists, which is not a given. It existed in the Dawn Age and who knows what has happened since. You also speak of the spells in the Furlandan School as if it were being set in stone unchanging in time whereas the needs it fulfils for the Loskalmi today are surely different from the needs of the early Hrestoli in the Dawn Age. I don't care for a bland list of spells if it has practical uses. That's not what Glorantha should be about. The spells are what they had at the start of the Dawn Age. What happened to the School in the Imperial Age and what happened when the Men-of-All took over? Are the wizards going to be satisfied learning the same lists of spells? Thank you. That was actually the type of interesting insight that I was looking for. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with commanding spirits (although the old Hero Wars/HeroQuest mindset did give that impression). The first sorceror of Wizpotket actually commands a Vadeli Ice Demon (Guide p211) The rest of your post was and interesting and useful read.

Given that Harrek wasn't in Sog City for very long and we are also ignorant of any military conflicts leading up to the Sack of Sog City, it's a weak argument from silence to say that Loskalm didn't do anything when Harrek attacked. Loskalm is currently not an imperialistic country but they can get involved in foreign wars for reasons other than conquest.

Not sure that Akem has a history of being conquered by outside countries and I doubt that Loskalm is willing to let a huge army wash its feet in Ozur sound without a fight.

The Furlandan And Zendamlathan Schools have been around since the Dawn Age! Surely the Loskalmi might have discovered something else since then? Secondly it's not good pointing to the Zendamalthan School unless you can actually describe how you think Zendamalthan Spells would actually work. Otherwise we are back to a school of philosophy with no magic, or even worse, another Bardan School. We do? The Furlandan School is not mentioned in the Guide. You might be able to say that the Wizards of Ienswal are frtom the Furlandan Schoo given their role in Logic Beats Spirit (Guide p208) but that's one city. What do the Men-of-All and the Wizards of the other fifty cities learn? The engineers are the Zendamalthan (Guide p208). The Telendarians do not appear in the Guide. I wasn't asking for a literature survey or even an agreement. I was asking for *Ideas* on how Loskalmi spells might look and how they would work. It's not good saying we need more information given we're quite free to speculate on other matters.

The Rokari wouldn't cast such a magic. What I was getting at was: The Loskalmi consider they are spirits trapped in a corrupt cosmos. They are philosophical idealists (Guide p203) which means they consider the world of thoughts to be superior to the material world. Some of them (the Zendamalthan School) reject Empiricism (the acquisition of knowledge through sense experience). Through their rejection of Makan and the Abiding Book, they may reject the standardised forms of the Runes (as perfected by the God Learners) in favour of more archaic formulations of these runes (The Debaldan School was extant in Hrestol's time so is permissible - the Tanian school was invented by God Learners so isn't). The Carmanians are Materialists (Guide p725), they use Logic to study the laws of the Cosmos (associated with Idovanus) that govern the material world (associated with Ganesatarus). The Rokari are conservatives, rejecting Joy and other errors of the God Learners. They may be philosophical realists, with the runes standing in for the world of forms (the text is vague) The Brithini are arch-conservatives. They could create new spells through Henosis but of off the opinion that the existing spells are good enough. The Safelstrans and the Aeolians are Neo-Platonists who worship the Gods to obtain Henosis. Now we have the magic. There's been the tendency to give Malkioni Magicians invisible magics (cf the Bardan School in HQ 1.0 which gave bless weapons and arrows), which, to be frank, is boring. The more important spells should be visible remanifestations of the original mythic event that repeat. A death spell based on Humakt's murder of grandfather mortal should have the appearance of a ghostly sword running through the victim. Now I'm interested in seeing from the philosophy what type of spells the various schools might favour and which spells the various schools might shun. I'm also seeing what the effects of the philosophy will have on how a school uses a grimoire (say there are two chapters of the Debaldan School of Magic - one in Loskalm and the other in Seshnela - how would the magicians differ in practice). I sometimes feel that the RQ2 spell of Fireblade is Gerlant's flamesword magic, which was stolen after the fall of the God Learners, used and abused by barbarians. That theory about Loskalm has been mooted in the past but Loskalm's fate according to the TakenEgi Stelae is to fall to the Red Moon under Phargentes the Younger.

That isn't what I was talking about. Look at the Orlanthi. What magics do they use? Storm magics, lightning bolts etc. Likewise looking at the Lunars we see they use Glamours and Mindblasts. Now what magics do the Loskalmi use? What spells does Meriatan use in battle? What spells does Gaiseron use? We know some fields of what they study but not the types of actual magics they cast. I don't find statements that their spells are all about abstraction, purity and rejection of gross matter to be very helpful. And no modern Malkioni magic is not Hrestoli as Henosis is not invented by Hrestol. I wasn't asking about their philosophy but the visible magic they derive from their philosophy. What would be the features of a spell that would be recognized as Loskalmi? What type of spell would a Loskalmi not cast (or that a Zzaburi or Rokari would?) The sources are silent on this (well there was HQ 1.0 which didn't handle the Malkioni very well) This would be the same Plato who wrote about dialectic method, no? And how the dialectic method goes from Thesis and Antithesis to Synthesis?

I really have to revise that article at some stage. It relies on post-canonical material (Anaxial's Roster has a person from the Logic Tribe stand up in his stirrups) as well as Greg's horse article (the status of which is unknown).

My own thinking on population growth is that at the end of the Dawn Age, the population of Prax would have been in the same magnitude as the current population (i.e. at least 10%). However estimating this is a tad difficult because the current population figures are for the whole of the Wastelands which the Praxians didn't do live in significant numbers until they were forced to by their defeat by the Pure Horse Tribe. Fortunately we do have a rough and ready figure that could be used. The Sables believe they have won Prax and so would be living there while the other tribes eat chaparral. Adding them and the Pol Joni gives a base nomadic population of roughly 100,000 which seems about right. The only other data point that I'm aware of is that the Bisons sent 150 warriors to the Battle of Night and Day implying that their tribal strength was at least 1500 at 379 ST (David Scott's figures give 1640)

How does Caylash Rhino fit into the scheme of things? He's active between 780 and 810, even denting the gates of the Castle of Lead.

I agree that the God Learners were not illuminated through Joy and never meant to suggest they were. There's scant Hrestoli influence among the God Learners. The reference to Gbaji is not conclusive as any bad influence would be labelled by them as coming from Gbaji. As for the error of the God Learners is, I feel, a result of their short cuts. In their study of much of the world (Draconists, Arkati, Eastern Islanders, their own Henosis tradition [HeroQuest Glorantha p174] etc), they were able to derive a new Exalted State that would be superior to all other paths. It was however the "Most Learned and Least Wise" of the states of mystical awareness. There has been very little evidence of the type of magics cast by the Loskalmi full stop so the argument that the Loskalmi aren't known to do this isn't that strong an arguement. Casting magic combining opposing runes is not unique to the Lunars - HeroQuest: Glorantha has it as a general power known by the following people: The Arkati The Draconists The God Learners who made the water burn. The Eastern Islanders The Cult of Silence The Near Ones with a big Question Mark. Two and probably three of those also use Western Sorcery. How they use this power is yet undescribed but that it should rest comfortably within magics of the rank-and-file and not look like a rulesy interpolation. I don't think that is what Jeff said. Hrestoli spells are contigent on Joy. Zzaburi spells can be cast by non-Brithini but require special requirements (the reasoning having been lost in the midsts of time) to be effective such as the requirement that their horses be of a specific height (cf the pony ridden by the Soldier on p406 of the Guide).

I'm speaking only in the HeroQuest Glorantha definition which also states that Draconists are illuminated and elsewhere insinuates that the God Learners were illuminated. Not to mention obvious loons like Argrath running around stating all these states are the same. Illumination (henceforth referring only to the Nysaloran) has been around long before the Sunstop (cf Yelm). Whatever reasons Arkat opposed Nysalor is not necessarily the reason that Nysalor threatened the Cosmos (gratituous breaches of the Cosmic Compromise) and they may be distinct by whatever Gjabi was up to. Secondly Arkat did not become illuminated as a result of becoming a knight. He was supposedly illuminated by the Elves of Brithos before coming to Seshnela. Now you can disagree with that however you wish (I myself think he was what the Lunars call a Natural and his condition arose through the Sunstop) but Arkat's reasons are largely personal to him rather than general dislike of something different. Nysalor was the evil deceiver who kept him and others emeshed in the turmoil of the Gods War Unfortunately the description of Medispiction (in the Middle Sea Empire p46) makes it clear that their moral senses are not that sharp. More importantly you are criticizing my equation Joy = Illumination on the on the grounds that they are subjectively different. I quite agree But I was equating Joy with Illumination on the grounds that both conferred similar cosmic awareness as the HeroQuest: Glorantha rulebook also said was the case for Draconic mysticism, Eastern Isles Sagely wisdom, the Cult of Silence and whomever is fooling around with God Learner artifacts in Jrustela. Do all these ways yield the same (or even similar) mental insight? Almost certainly not! But the effect of the acquisition of this knowledge is largely similar and in broad strokes can be summed up in the seven illumination abilities (as per HQ:G p204). Now having argued that the enlightened states are the same only in the consequences of that knowledge, I will now u-turn again and suggest that the magic that the different paths derive from their enlightened knowledge will differ radically and be largely influenced by myth, magical practice and culture. Lunar magic (Moon Rune Glamours) flows from Illumination yet would be vastly different from whatever use the Bright Empire used it for (my guess is ignoring the Cosmic Compromise as per the Battle of Night and Day). Dragon Magic will differ yet again being concerned with Dragons and so on. Lastly I do think that what magics the Loskalmi now derive from Joy are different from what the God Learners, Gerlant and Talor derived (and their magics different from each other). You haven't said much in the way of powers at all (I know I haven't). Intellectual union with the one is a description of what Joy subjectively is rather than being a visible point of difference between the power of say Sir Meriatan and an ordinary sorcerer which is what people are really interested in. Ease in learning sorcery spells is largely negated by the time spent in trying to achieve joy in the first place. Immunity from magical attacks would be qualified by an ability rating and become another version of Countermagic. Better abilities might be: 1) LIVING GRIMOIRE: A personal rune becomes active. A spell can be derived from this rune on an ad hoc basis and cast (without any specific ability bonus) 2) FREEDOM OF THOUGHT: The Man-of-All renders himself immune to the effects of the corrupt world of matter whether physical (ie cold weather, alcohol etc) or mental (rigid thinking, narrow social mores). He can still be affected by actions caused by another person 3) UNTAP: Mutate a form of chaos into something ineffective or self-harmful to its possessor 4) WIELD JOY: the Man-of-All can make his joy known to others. Usually used as a teaching aid but can be used offensively. Use of Joy to kill or to commit a crime is considered an extreme error. 5) HIDDEN MOVE: The Man-of-All moves his body through the eyes of Irensavel. All his actions are at +9. While in such a state, he is unable to do anything hostile to another person in a state of joy (and could but shouldn't to a Loskalmi who has not yet experienced joy). While Joy could be interpreted in such an individualistic fashion, I do not believe the Loskalmi and others do normally do so.

According to the Guide p51 The magic they provide are spells which anybody can learn. One could argue that a saint could also provide an affinity (and the Cult of Pavis in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure would be a good example of that) But you would find such barbarous practices among the henotheists (or perhaps the Tanisoran War Societies). They are not Saints in the sense of agents of compassion and teachers of holy paths of meditation but intellectual discoverers of Cosmic Truths. Their teachings are primarily for the wizards and men-of-all and have little relevance for the ordinary people. The mindset of the wizards is that of the alchemist, the astronomer or the heart surgeon rather than the contemplative hermit. Every western commoner knows spell magic whether it is through their occupation or magical nature Theoretically the common arts were invented by people who would nowadays be Saints but the Brithini do not see their achievements to be worthy of applause (think of Aristotelian Logic, we use it quite often but worship Aristotle very little). That really goes to the nature of Joy, something which there has been little official word about in the new Canon. Firstly the Seshnegi Rokari. The best example here are the war societies and we can pretty much trace their origins (Horse Society - Galanini Orlanthi, Snake Society - Serpent Kings, Lion Society - Basmoli, Bull Society - Tawari who invaded Seshnela in the Dawn Age, Deer Society - Pralori, Wolf Society - Telmori). I don't get the impression that the Seshnelans are all that interested in policing the magical practices of the war societies, instead they are focused on ensuring correct thought among the wizards. They probably insist on outside conformance with Malkioni norms (no shape-shifting into bestial form) but leave it at that. Hence the war societies can probably teaches runic affinities or spirit charms for all I know. They probably justify their practices as being endorsed by the saints whom they secretly worship but they would not be an saintly ordained warrior order in the traditional sense. The Talars on the other hand are family focused and have a magical tradition based on what house they belong to (the Bailifids etc). This may extend to war magics (such as the flaming swords) but the founders of these traditions are not considered to be Saints. Now for the Loskalmi. There's two types of orders, the wizardly orders (such as the Zendamalthan School which seeks God through Math) and the Men-of-All orders (the traditional knightly orders). All wizardly schools in Loskalm are Hrestoli and seek Joy. This comes because when the Men-of-All seized power after expelling the God Learners, they forced all the wizardly orders to open their ranks to the knights etc. As far as I can suss things out, Joy is a sorcerous mysticism, to wit; a spiritual state achieved through the use of spells, which is to non-Hrestoli "inconsequential and typically of no interest" (Guide to Glorantha p9). The aim of Joy is to acquire the Infinity Rune/achieve (not Nysaloran) Illumination. I think the Loskalmi have special spells that can only be cast either in a state of joy or having experienced a state of joy and these spells repeat to some extent the special abilities of an illuminate. Most Loskalmi joyous battle spells would be of the ability to combine incompatible runes

In addition to the names that Jeff has mentioned, I've used Entruli. The best information about Entru is probably history of the Heortling Peoples p97. Originally the people were of the wilds and friends to plants and animals. They were nearly destroyed by the creatures of darkness (trolls?) but King Hooafting saved them by building sacred forts (perhaps the -plose places?). Their unity was destroyed when Beked was slain. They also offended the gods who sank their sweet city Herilia (I think this is meant to be Erenplose). Also I think the sinking of Erenplose should happen in the flood age and before the problems with the trolls. They are culturally Orlanthi having been exposed to Orlanthi ways since the Storm Age (basically put after the seas flooded the place, the Vingkotlings came and drove the seas back. So IMO there is a distinct strain of wild-living (hunter/gatherers) among the entruli which has been superseded by the Orlanthi cattle-farming ways. Plus you have further influences from Esrolia, Safelster and the now sunken Slontos. The Helerings were mostly destroyed by the great darkness except for a few surviving colonies along the manirian shore (Sartar Companion p263). I think following the example of the Coming Storm, they would be strongest around the rivers and lakes of Maniria but mixed in with other Orlanthi. A clan or two undboutedly exists. But the largest remant of Haranding Culture, the Haradlaro became part of Esrolia under king Longsi a long time ago. I think they were there since the Storm Age having been part of the same migration that settled God Forgot. Their original home was New Malkonwall on the western shore of the Faralinthor Sea (cf Guide p688 and p691). The first settlements were trading posts but they became more populous after Malkion was murdered and New Malkonwal sunk. In the Middle Sea Empire p44 onwards, there is reference to the Book of Secrets (an Arkati version of the Abiding Book) which was opened in Slontos at the end of the Imperial Age (and which promptly sank the place). So rather than following the Abiding Book, the Malkioni will be heavily influenced by the Book of Secrets and have different magics (finding out hich magic is right and proper and which magic is not would be a big obsession among their wizards). Ramalia is as evil as you want it to be. I however make their fear of the sea to be real and that a large portion of their heavy taxation goes to supporting wizards who keep the land magically dry. My best guess is that they are from Safelster intent on visiting an important place in Arkat's journey. Perhaps they are interested in finding and looting the Convergences which exists in the pass. The Loper People come from Teshnos and were raiding Maniria at the time. Thus I doubt there would be native populations there (a secret tradition leftover from a defeated army? fine). Their magic can be whatever you want it to be (My own theory is that they commanded magical tides that would allow them to wield the magic of whatever local gods and spirits lived in the region).

Demibirds are said to have solid bones so there's no need for them to be significantly larger than an ostrich. As for the Augners, I think they are true birds and so any avilry would be limited (skirmishers etc). There's a good reason why the horses became the steed of choice.

It's taken the illustration on p207 of HeroQuest: Glorantha.

The Kolati Winds are given in the Sartar Companion and are different from the Pentan scheme. Humakt and Vadrus are called in the Book of Heortling Mythology "the chill North Winds". North Wind is also mentioned a few times (once at the battle of Stormfall and distinguished from Humakt, another in the strange fragment of King of Sartar p67). Storm Bull is more likely to be the East Wind to the Orlanthi since his winds blow out of the Wastelands compared to Dragon Pass. The South Wind may be Heler but I'm basing this on probably superseded information in Storm Tribe: Cults of Sartar - I doubt that it's Brastalos. The identity of the West Wind is kind of open and I'm kind of inclined to associate them with Vadrus and his sons.

Sir Narib's Hall and Sir Narib's Compnay Barracks appear on the map of Nochet just south of the Harmast Gate. The map in question is a recent one and put up http://www.glorantha.com/nochet-city-of-queens/

I would make the Swordbrothers Praxian. The Flash Jack, Amber and Potor were once said (verbally) to be Pol Joni related (ie they weren't pol joni but had similar origins) rather than Praxian. I have no idea what the current story is.

Sakum is however mentioned in the Guide Map p159. Have a look at the legends surrounding the four races. On the south, upside down, are the letters Sakum (which I see you think is Sramak). And Revealed Mythologies is still part of the new canon.

Possible but unlikely. Mahaquata is to Quatanara as to Jagrekriand is to Shargash more like, an enemy image of a god. As to the two different types of Bat-winged trolls, you don't need two different deities to explain the variation. The older version is probably the four limbed version (as per the modern bat). The six-limbed version may have been influenced by either the Lunars (Arachne Solara has multiple limbs) or through the EWF (Ruler Dragonewts with wings). This could also mean there are four-armed trolls running around.