M Helsdon

Unless they are the bodies of dead Dream Dragons... Note that for Resurrection to work within six days, the body must be healed, which can be taken as countering the effects of putrefaction - the fifth stage of death, which occurs after the earlier and relatively quick stages of pallor mortis, algor mortis, rigor mortis, and livor mortis. The healing counters all those stages, to sufficient extent to make the body sufficiently healthy to live again, if the resurrection attempt succeeds.

Page 150: Black Horse Country – should be - Black Horse County Page 150: Ethrilrst – should be – Ethilrist Page 150: and raised the new city of Alone – might be - and founded the new city of Alone Page 151: King’s List – some entries start with an indent, some do not. Page 153: geas and taboos – might be - geases and taboos Page 153: As a result, Moirades became the third King of Dragon Pass – third is incorrect, should be sixth (KoS page 30). Page 154: King Storm Kahn – should be - King Storm Khan Page 154: Western barbarians – probably - western barbarians - or more probably - Western Barbarians

The Syphon River in the Holy Country of all the waters of the world refused the call of Magasta. The Lake of Death would probably have been a remnant of the Glacier which swept down over most of what is now Peloria during the Storm Age and receded during the Great Darkness. The Elf Sea probably dates to that time, being a remnant of melt ice. The Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings seems to be from the Grey Age?

Thanks for the invite, but this topic has been done to death.

I have no idea what you are attempting to say. Book III is mostly about Livestock Farming... Orpheus features in Book IV, and your memory of the text isn't accurate.

Where, precisely, did I say he was? Only if their spirits aren't in the Underworld... Restless spirits aboard in the mundane World are quite distinct - they aren't bound by the 'rules and regulations' of the Underworld gatekeepers. Perhaps you need to read the myth again. I'd suggest The Greek Myths, Robert Graves, chapter 28, paragraph c. A succinct and short version, which includes the conditions you neglected to include.

It's a variant spelling. English chases other languages up dark alleys and mugs them - the proceeds aren't always consistent. I don't believes the lizards can use bolas... 8-)

Possibly a variant spelling of bolas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleadoras The Guide says: Bolo-Lizard Folk: This wry and wiry race rides about the Wastelands atop a slick and lean reptile. The creature runs with its head and tail stretched horizontally, leaving plenty of room for the riders to use their six-foot bolos with devastating effect.

Anyone wanting the books for Christmas will have to successfully perform the Santa Heroquest. 8-)

Some of the Beast Men are the result of hideous experimental surgery during the rule of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends to recreate extinct races; others survived the Great Darkness. It is generally impolite (and risky) to ask Beast Men about their origins.

But after the Devil was buried under the Block...

Apologies, but both Cults of Prax and HeroQuest Glorantha state that Waha was born at the end of the Gods War, after his father had slain the Devil and long after his mother was hidden beneath the earth.

All nine went to the Land of the Dead, and whilst there, were dead. Grandfather Mortal stayed in the Underworld to become Judge of the Dead. No where is it mentioned that Grandfather Mortal left his body behind. Orpheus was granted permission to leave the Underworld by Hades; Hades also gave permission for Eurydice to leave with him. Hades set conditions upon each of them getting out, which Orpheus broke when he had returned to the Mortal World but she had not, meaning that her permission to leave was revoked. Being already in the Mortal World when he broke the conditions, Orpheus was not trapped in the Underworld. I appreciate you want to argue that there is a difference between being in the Underworld when dead, and journeying there whilst 'alive', but it's a meaningless distinction, because what is important is whether you have a way out. There are guardians of the Underworld who seek to keep people outside, and there are guardians who seek to keep people inside. If you get past the former, you are an inhabitant of the Underworld; if you get past the latter, you can enter the Mortal World. Of your other examples: Theseus was trapped in the Underworld until Heracles rescued him; Heracles was able to get out of the Underworld because he overcame Cerberus, one of the guardians tasked with keeping people in, and he was aided by Hermes (who knew his way in and out as part of his role as psychopomp).

But nothing stopping boozing in the bar you are in, all night...

Moon Design/Chaosium define canon. Canon has well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty, but also some very definite certainties. I don't define canon, though I do what I can to support the legacy. None of which is what I said. If you read the Guide, it clearly states: Fairly or unfairly, the Vanchites have a reputation as thieves. It says nothing about how Vanchites consider themselves. Note that in terrestrial cultures, when the neighbors declare a distinct group to be thieves, that group rarely considers themselves to be thieves. This may be because their cultural variety of honor is different, or because they aren't thieves. You are projecting your beliefs regarding Vanchite behavior, probably in much the same way their neighbors, rightly, or wrongly, do. However, saying something is true, is very different from it being true. The phrase you are misusing relates back to Babylonian astrology/astronomy where it was believed that events in the sky indicate or presage events in the world below. The Babylonians had vast codices of previous sky events cross-linked to events that happened at the same time. There was an expectation that if a shower of meteorites, for example, coincided with the death of a king, then if a shower was seen in the same direction and location, then a king was going to die. Of course, kings are always dying somewhere... What you are saying is true: in the Mundane World, but the Underworld isn't part of the Mundane World, and if you enter the Underworld, whether living or dead, you are dead, unless you can get out. The Lightbringers took their 'bodies' into the Underworld. So did Yelm: Howling, he fled on the trail which Grandfather had taken, and hid in the Underworld. I refer you to King of Sartar, the Lightbringers' Quest: Aklor, the son of Luath and Jeleka, was the Luathan leader. Aklor escorted Orlanth and his companions across their beautiful, but shadowed land to the magnificent, vacant palace of their ruler. This was Rausa, goddess of the Western Gates. She hated Orlanth because he had killed her father, Yelm, and banished him to remain forever below her own Western Gates. Rausa had been the last to see him in the world of the living. She hated Orlanth so much that she smeared herself with her father’s crimson blood to remind herself to take revenge. She hated Orlanth so much that, whenever she had the strength, she armed and rose up from the horizon to look for him. She wished to send Orlanth to her father’s fate, and then lock the Gate of the West behind him. Now, at last, he was here, in her palace. However, she also feared Orlanth and what he could probably do to her, her people, and to her palace if he unleashed all his powers. She knew it would be difficult to kill him if he was alone, and he was not. He would be hard to kill if he was unarmed, which he was not. He would be hard to trick, too, since he was so well advised. So Princess Rausa asked him what he wanted here, in her house. And Orlanth spoke simply. “I wish to travel beyond your home,” he said, “and through the Gate of the West, and have them locked behind me.” And the goddess was so happy that her wish had come true that she did not ask what his business there was, or with what intent he entered into this, or what end he hoped to accomplish. She collected the fee for going to the Underworld, then ordered the gate keepers, Vamth and Rhylor, to wrench the great doors open, and to lock them again when the travelers went through. So for the gods to enter the Underworld was to die. And later: This agreement between the gods is called the Cosmic Compromise. All of the deities agreed to share the world with each other, and with all of the experiences which they had already had. No one was allowed to avoid what they did not like, and so all of the gods agreed that they would share their time among both Life and Death. They agreed to these things, and that they would not actively intervene in each other’s realms except in those ways which they had already done. They would not individually or consciously alter the world. They would not even turn their awareness to it, unless called upon to do so. Yelm died when Orlanth used Death to slay him; Orlanth died when he entered the Underworld. Both were released from the Underworld, part of the time, when they agreed the Great Compromise. When Orlanth dies 'permanently' after the Fall of Whitewall there are major ramifications because he (and Ernalda) are trapped in the Underworld. This brings on the Great Winter in Dragon Pass. The details are part of the campaign of The Eleven Lights. When the Lunars kill Orlanth the Great Compromise is damaged, which has ongoing implications. No, that is not how it works, in Glorantha, or terrestrial mythologies. For example in the story Inanna's Descent to the Underworld, the goddess is only freed from death in the Underworld when she sends her lover Dumuzi there in her place. The template of the dying and resurrecting god, of which Dumuzi is the earliest example we know of, has continued throughout history in the Near East.

True, but you can't hide a True Dragon so close to the surface, and if it had subsequently buried itself at the site of the New Lunar Temple there would have been unmistakable dragon-sign. True Dragons seem to become part of the landscape by going to sleep and then becoming buried over Time.

The final decision is of course the authors', but I can't help but feel that the use of obscure slang is a little disingenuous? It slams the reader to a halt with the thought - what does that mean? Some people will 'get it', others won't.

Suspect it is humor using the obscure slang term mythory - a mixture of myth and history - with the prefix con-/com- meaning 'with,' 'together,' or 'in association.' However, as I'm not certain I raised the comment.

Perhaps, but the Guide - in an in-world unreliable text - says the dragon of the Dragonrise was previously unknown, and the Dragon of Jarn was known in 1622 ST. As the New Lunar Temple was being constructed in 1621 if not earlier, a True Dragon at the site or sneaking about at the surface might have been noticed? At the very least, given the devastation surrounding the dragon in 1622, it should have been spotted by any competent surveyor. I don't know the canon answer, which is why I raised the comment.

Page 12: The Prime Mover originates the Western humanist universe – might be - The Prime Mover originates in the Western humanist universe Page 12: and/or – suggest this form detracts from the style of the essay. Suggest instead use – and [General comment] Page 12: there is variation in giving Void, Silence, Prime Mover, Well capital letters. Suggest all instances should have a capital letter. Page 12: without consent from gods – suggest - without consent from the gods Page 13: Empire of Wyrms Friends – should be - Empire of the Wyrms Friends [General Comment: 4 instances in the document] Page 13: Empty void – might be – Empty Void Page 13: When meditations were complete – might be - When its meditations were complete Page 14: The True Dragons of Dragon Pass are: - the list is incomplete as the Guide refers to the Dragon of Jarn, preceding the Dragonrise. The number of known dragons in Dragon Pass should be five? Page 15: The Twins – this term might be used in the preceding Numerological Succession text box as it has no precedent. Page 15: Ratslaff – should be – Ratslaf Page 15: cults she was called – suggest present tense - cults she is called Page 16: Within the New Age called Time, the rulers of the old cosmos have no place – except Uleria? Might be worth an annotation? Page 17: Ratslaff – should be – Ratslaf Page 17: kept secret by the Dark Trolls – possibly by Mistress Race Trolls? Page 79: God War – should be – Gods War [1 instance of the former, 43 of the latter] Page 82: truestone – might be - Truestone Page 83: Ratslaff – should be - Ratslaf

One source would be those made outlaw. King of Sartar: Outlaws are those people who have been cast out of society, either because they have behaved without justice or honor, or have chosen to depart. Although sanctioned by the blessing of Orlanth, outlawry is a lonely, dismal, and often fatal way of life. An outlaw has been stripped of his obligatory connections to kin, chief, and tribe. He is utterly free, but has no social system to draw support from. If he is an outlaw, and hunted by enemies, he is usually doomed. Given that many of the Pol-Joni are either outlaws or the descendants of outlaws, outlawry isn't an automatic death sentence or exclusion from any other social group. It isn't hard to imagine outlaws forming their own 'criminal families' in urban centers, and Lanbril's cult provides a template for this.

This would be an example of an intentional omission. In real myths there are often things we can't define; one example in the Epic of Gilgamesh is the reference to Urshanabi's stone things - we have no idea what this refers to: there are various suggestions by modern scholars, but we don't know for certain and probably never will. As game background it acts as a possible hook that someone may expand upon one day.

Attended a talk on CoC which was very informative. There were preview copies of the Glorantha Sourcebook and the new RuneQuest on the table, in print books and a suitcase of hoary treasures (convention booklets, a few Wyrms Footnotes, Wyrms Footprints and old boxed sets and other things). Chaosium are very busy, and there are many interesting things lined up in the future. A few of the things we are reporting are intentional features, not bugs. However, I don't feel I can define what those are as my list isn't definitive, and I wouldn't wish to block a comment which may be valid. A comment is easy to reject, but if it isn't made it can't be assessed, and some comments that may seem to belong to the intentional class, might not... I wouldn't want to second guess the author. So I believe we should proceed as we are - though I may not make any comments for a day or two due to a lack of free time.

Attended Dragonmeet today. Had a chat with Jeff: the comments here are being assessed and many are being incorporated into the document.

If he was a Light Son then he would not be able to dress as a woman, so no skirt. 8-)