M Helsdon

Logistics. Any army in the field requires constant resupply: by foraging, plundering, supply depots or allies willing to provide supplies. Plundering, and even foraging will alienate people on the line of march, and there's the risk of ongoing ambuscade (a favorite tactic of Orlanthi and related peoples) and eventually open warfare. To gain and maintain supply would have either required conquest, or winning allies - both processes that would take a very long time. An army on the march needs supply depots every sixty miles or so, otherwise its effectiveness starts to reduce. A more recent example is Lunar expansion south, with major supply depots at Miren's Cross, Furthest, Alda-Chur... And by the time the Lunars reached Corflu and Nochet they were in an increasingly weak position, if their local allies disappeared. Arkat, and Talor, relied upon friendly peoples on the line of march, because their supply lines were either over extended or gradually withering away behind them. Arkat used the tactic of adopting the ways of the people closest to him in a position to supply his army: eventually becoming a Troll to be able to push into southern Peloria.

Scenes of violence...

Except that often even where the versions seem to relate to the same event, they are often contradictory. It is possible to say what different cultures believe to be the Truth, but it is not possible to uncover the actual Truth. In-world, this is apparent because the Goddess of Truth is now very distant and aloof from the mortal world. This is why I cited sources but didn't come to any conclusions when assessing Bull or Horse deities. There are some apparent connections, most of which suggest underlying complexities we can't resolve. And, if we could, it would make the world too black and white. Now, that certainty is necessary in roleplaying most player characters (unless they are Illuminated) but it doesn't reflect the 'real' world where well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty enhance the richness of the fictional world. There seem to be far fewer gods in Glorantha that might be assumed: Shargash and Tolat seem to be different (very different) aspects of the same entity, and of course some Dara Happans believe Orlanth is a version of Shargash... Most of the detailed mythic material we have relates to a fairly small geographic area for the core cultures, with a few outliers, which are often wildly divergent. And I suspect the core cultures are far less monolithic than they appear.

Perhaps, but The White Goddess is unlikely to reflect any ancient terrestrial culture. The baby cannot be recovered. Too much time and too much interference. The only things that can be studied with any pretense of accuracy are cultures in Time, before that, there's too much contradiction, which makes it just like terrestrial mythologies that are rarely as neat and tidy as often assumed. For example, there's an obvious correlation between Zeus, Teshub, Dyaus, Jupiter, etc. but when you burrow further down you find that the attributes of Zeus of one place are different to the Zeus of another place. This makes the mythology of Glorantha more satisfying because it isn't all delineated like most fictional mythologies.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. http://www.glorantha.com/docs/bluepeople/ I suspect that the imprint of God Time can be eroded by heroquesters and their beliefs. It is dubious whether all the cities correlate to Yelm's sons.

The Blue People of Peloria also include a variety of water entities, who were defeated by Bisos and others. I'd take everything of God Learner origin as suspect. It's a bit like trying to extrapolate terrestrial Greek Bronze Age religions from the Greek Myths: fraught with risk. This is best illustrated by the very erudite trickster Robert Graves who attempted to extract religion (and history) from the Greek Myths, eventually culminating in The White Goddess, which is a collection of speculation. For that matter, his Claudius novels are so popular some people take them as historical... The reputation of Livia Drusilla has forever been tarnished. 8-) We're basically in the same position for all pre-Dawn events - where the human populations at the Dawn were small and more concerned with surviving - and most were probably illiterate, so what ever stories they did tell each other are now buried under centuries of supposition. Take, for example, the Ten Cities of Dara Happan myth. As you've noted at least one is suspect, and the number of cities may simply be an expression of the dara Happan belief that ten is the perfect number (though why, then, did Yelm have eight 'sons'?)

No, he's a son of Urox / Storm Bull / Bisos... 8-) I'd take the quoted text with several pinches of salt...

From the material in the Guide, it seems likely that a large number of modern Orlanthi are descendants of Hsunchen peoples, especially in Ralios, Jonatela and western Peloria. There seem to be more Blue People than just the Vadeli or Veldang. Given what eventually happened to them, God Learner genealogies are all suspect, and potentially corrupted numerous myth cycles. The Monomyth is obviously a construction, and there are so many inconsistencies in it that it can only be taken as a broad and undetailed source. I know. This is why I attempted to draw out a potential genealogy from the in-world sources. True. But are Eiritha and Uralda masks of the same goddess, filtered via two different cultures, or are they sister deities?

Yes, I'm aware of it - but it lacks any mythological information so I haven't used it. Just a faint kinship as some chieftains could apparently turn into horses - which suggests to me a fading Hsunchen lineage. As an in-world document it may well be a later invention to explain the world 'as it is' and to discredit the Horse Barbarians as the rival Solar people - 'they may have ruled us at the Dawn but they were descended from rebels, and so had no legal basis for their rule' sort of thing. Ditto - potentially later invention, or faded memory. Yet we find references to Yelm's chariot... Indeed. I suspect that pretty much all pre-Dawn myths are as suspect as using Homer as an historical source for Bronze Age history - there are echoes and shadows of events in there but filtered by later invention. Yes, there's a distinction between Horse Goddesses and Horse-Riding Goddesses. True - but the similarity of names suggests the former might be related to the latter - as per your comment: The place is obviously named after El(e)malus, named by Shargash as King of the Vingkotlings. We are dealing with two cultural myths here. I hadn't considered that Elmalus/Elmal might be related to Hyalor/Beren... They have no idea where the Starlight Ancestors or the Hyalorings came from - though the map in TGROY shows them both deriving from Nivorah. In all cases, I was careful to relate to beliefs and traditions, not 'facts'. The only fact is that the only in-world sources are unreliable.

Apologies for the double post, but something I've posted on another thread may be relevant... or not. Long before Time, the ancient Bull God was named Tawar, Tafer, Tavar, or KefTavar, according to different traditions. There may also be a relationship with the infamous Tarjinian Bull, defeated by Talor the Laughing Warrior during the Gbaji Wars. In the northwest, the tribes of the bull-riding Tawari led the resistance against the small surviving Malkioni colonies after the Dawn. They ruled the other Enjoreli tribes, and worshipped a violent Storm God. Whilst perhaps not Hsunchen themselves, the Tawari were allied with and benefitted from the support of the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Hsunchen tribes in Fronela. The Enjoreli were defeated by the Malkioni colony of Isefwal in 220, and retreated back to their farms and pastures. Those that later threatened Akem were defeated by Talor of Loskalm in 450, being driven eastwards. Many of the surviving cattle-raising pastoralists were quick to embrace the Theyalan gods. The Enjoreli were distantly related to the legendary Enelvi, who were ruled by the divine Kereusi dynasty before Time in what is now Vanstal, south of the Sweet Sea. The first generation of this dynasty was fathered upon the goddess Esus by the Bull God KefTavar. Bisos was the younger brother of Kereus, and gave his name to the Bisosae, the People of Bisos. The Horned Bisosae Kings ruled before the Dawn. Bisos and Esus are the Bull God and Cow Goddess of Pelanda. The violent Bull God Bisos is variously identified with Urox and Storm Bull by Theyalans, whilst Esus is identified with Ernalda or her daughter Uralda. In ancient times the cult of Bisos involved bull dancing. The Bull Shahs of Carmania claimed their descent from the ancient Bull Lords of Vanstal. Urox the Storm Bull is a war god in the Orlanthi pantheon, and especially the fanatical berserk warrior against Chaos. According to God Learner genealogies he is the son of Umath and Mikyh the Beast Mother – though they never had access to Peloria, and so their claims may be spurious. (Indeed, Hykim and Mikyh may simply be placeholders in the deific genealogies when the God Learners were unable or uninterested in determining the beast god ancestor.) Urox himself fathered the first bull-headed minotaur upon a daughter of Uleria, or perhaps upon Velhara. The cow goddess of the Orlanthi is Uralda, a daughter of Ernalda, and Hykim. In the ancient lands of the Enjoreli in what is now Junora and Jonatela, the Bull God is not entirely submerged by the Theyalan culture. The Oranor tribal confederation in Junora worship Orlanth as the bull-riding chief of the gods. When Charg emerged from the Syndics Ban it was ruled by Bull Lords who worship Urox and other war gods of the Orlanthi pantheon. In Prax Eiritha the Herd Mother, daughter of Ernalda and Hykim, is the wife of Storm Bull, who is depicted with the head of the tribal herd beast. The White Bull spirit was prophesized to make peace between the Bison and Sable peoples and lead the Praxians to greatness by destroying the foreigners.

I wonder if there are still any bull-riders? They seem an obvious mount for Urox champions... In the Guide there's Krotnon Bullrider, a priest of Orlanth, and in The Coming Storm, Orkarl Bullrider.

Some of my recent thoughts... Long before Time, the ancient Bull God was named Tawar, Tafer, Tavar, or KefTavar, according to different traditions. There may also be a relationship with the infamous Tarjinian Bull, defeated by Talor the Laughing Warrior during the Gbaji Wars. In the northwest, the tribes of the bull-riding Tawari led the resistance against the small surviving Malkioni colonies after the Dawn. They ruled the other Enjoreli tribes, and worshipped a violent Storm God. Whilst perhaps not Hsunchen themselves, the Tawari were allied with and benefitted from the support of the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Hsunchen tribes in Fronela. The Enjoreli were defeated by the Malkioni colony of Isefwal in 220, and retreated back to their farms and pastures. Those that later threatened Akem were defeated by Talor of Loskalm in 450, being driven eastwards. Many of the surviving cattle-raising pastoralists were quick to embrace the Theyalan gods. The Enjoreli were distantly related to the legendary Enelvi, who were ruled by the divine Kereusi dynasty before Time in what is now Vanstal, south of the Sweet Sea. The first generation of this dynasty was fathered upon the goddess Esus by the Bull God KefTavar. Bisos was the younger brother of Kereus, and gave his name to the Bisosae, the People of Bisos. The Horned Bisosae Kings ruled before the Dawn. Bisos and Esus are the Bull God and Cow Goddess of Pelanda. The violent Bull God Bisos is variously identified with Urox and Storm Bull by Theyalans, whilst Esus is identified with Ernalda or her daughter Uralda. In ancient times the cult of Bisos involved bull dancing. The Bull Shahs of Carmania claimed their descent from the ancient Bull Lords of Vanstal. Urox the Storm Bull is a war god in the Orlanthi pantheon, and especially the fanatical berserk warrior against Chaos. According to God Learner genealogies he is the son of Umath and Mikyh the Beast Mother – though they never had access to Peloria, and so their claims may be spurious. (Indeed, Hykim and Mikyh may simply be placeholders in the deific genealogies when the God Learners were unable or uninterested in determining the beast god ancestor.) Urox himself fathered the first bull-headed minotaur upon a daughter of Uleria, or perhaps upon Velhara. The cow goddess of the Orlanthi is Uralda, a daughter of Ernalda, and Hykim. In the ancient lands of the Enjoreli in what is now Junora and Jonatela, the Bull God is not entirely submerged by the Theyalan culture. The Oranor tribal confederation in Junora worship Orlanth as the bull-riding chief of the gods. When Charg emerged from the Syndics Ban it was ruled by Bull Lords who worship Urox and other war gods of the Orlanthi pantheon. In Prax Eiritha the Herd Mother, daughter of Ernalda and Hykim, is the wife of Storm Bull, who is depicted with the head of the tribal herd beast. The White Bull spirit was prophesized to make peace between the Bison and Sable peoples and lead the Praxians to greatness by destroying the foreigners.

And just to return to the subject of the Sun and horses... [I lack any solid information on the horses of the west or east of Genertela] Horses A distinction must be made between the deities of horses and deities of horse-riding. Despite great distances, horses are always associated with the Sun. Ralios At the Dawn Ralios was inhabited by numerous tribes of Hsunchen in the forest and the horse-riding tribes of the Enerali in the lowland plains and valleys. The Enerali had survived the Darkness by following Galanin, the Sun Horse, and his herds around. Horses were especially sacred animals to the Enerali, who ate their meat as part of their religious festivals. Their chiefs fought from chariots pulled by their sacred Galanini ponies and horses were ridden in the hunts of the abundant wild horses along the shores of Lake Felster. Fighting from horseback became increasingly common once the Enerali were forced to defend themselves against Seshnegi heavy cavalry. The Galanini believed they were kin to their mounts and that some of the chieftains could transform into horses. It seems likely these few chieftains were relicts of an almost extinct Hsunchen population. During the God Time Orlanth defeated Galanin; after Time began, Theyalans moved into Ralios and so his horses are found across Orlanthi lands. Elmal, another Sun God, and his wife Redaylda took them into their care. Peloria and Pent In Peloria and Pent the origin and nature of horses is far more confused. At the Dawn, Dara Happa was ruled by Pentan horse nomads called the Sons of the Sun, but the modern Dara Happan Empire was reestablished in 221. The traditions of the Pentans relate that the Sun God handed rule to his son Kargzant, who gave life to the Starlight Ancestors and made them his people. Before Time their armies of chariot-riding bowmen conquered the entire Pelorian bowl. One tribe, the Hirenmador, reestablished the Dara Happan Empire; another, the Lenshi, ruled Pelanda (and defeated bull-riders from the west); and yet another, the Veshtargos, ruled Rinliddi. They came into conflict in the south with tribes of horse riders, called the Pure Horse People or Hyalorings, named for their king Hyalor who it is said claimed descent from the dead Sun God Yamsur. The horse riders defeated the chariot riders but were reduced in numbers, becoming a special priestly caste as the two peoples merged. According to the Orlanthi, other Hyalorings wandered further south, with Beren the Rider and his people joining the Vingotlings; Beren (or Bereneth) married Redaylda, the daughter of Orlanth and Ernalda. The traditions of Dara Happa tell a very different version. Although both are Solar cultures, the schism between the horsemen and the cities dates back before Time. The Dara Happans claim that the Starlight Ancestors were refugees who fled into the southeast from the city of Nivorah (in what was later Saird) when their city was destroyed. Their gods had refused to obey the commands of Emperor Manarlavus, and when the city was ground to dust by the glacier, their people rode away upon the children of their horse goddess Gamara following the commands of their god Kargzant. Later they returned to refounded the empire under the Jenarong Dynasty; the warlords were named as gametae, ‘riders’. The sources name the city god of Nivorah as Reladivus, a name curiously reminiscent of the name of the Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess, and of Reladiva of Jillaro, the feminine form of the name. The Dara Happan sources suggest that the Hyalorings split from the other people of Nivorah, riding south instead of southeast. They claim that the horses of the Hyalorings derive from the wounded and defeated Hippogriff, who lost her fangs, claws and wings. The broken demigod was taken and tamed by Hyalor Horsebreaker, becoming the horse goddess Hippoi. The only certainty in all this is that Redaylda is the Sairdite goddess of horses and sovereignty. Her husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren. They are relics of the Hyalorings who were in Saird at the Dawn though their modern heirs are the Pure Horse People of Pent and the Grazelands. Reladivus City god of Nivorah Reladiva Goddess of Old Jillaro Redaylda, Redalda, Redaylde or Redayla Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess Arandayla Grazelander Horse Goddess

Not at the moment. Due to events, I've been working on this illustration since January...

Some armour this time... Body Armor A: Plate armor 1. Dara Happan muscle cuirass with plate shoulder-flaps and gorget. 2. Holy Country muscle cuirass. 3. Pelorian Barbarian Belt cuirass with fixed gorget. 4. Orlanthi cuirass with gorget and hinged groin-flap. 5-6. Orlanthi articulated cuirasses with spaulders and gorgets. 7. Orlanthi cuirass with articulated plates and pauldrons, and a tall gorget to protect the throat and lower face. B: Scale armor 1. Light scale hauberk with reinforced shoulder-flaps and leather pteruges. 2. Praxian lamellar hauberk, made of plates of horn on a leather backing with a leather fringe. 3. Orlanthi heavy scale hauberk with leather pteruges. 4. Grazelander or Pentan scale hauberk with sleeves, worn with a war belt of metal plates. 5. Grazelander scale coat with a war belt decorated with two Sun Horses. 6. Orlanthi long scale hauberk with a metal and leather war belt. 7. Darjiini long scale hauberk worn with a small pectoral bearing the symbol of Alkoth. C: Triple-disk cuirasses and Pectorals 1. Pelorian triple-disk cuirass. 2. Ornate Lunar triple-disk cuirass depicting the head of the Red Goddess. 3. Lasadag Lions officer’s pectoral depicting Karndasal. 4. Lunar officer’s ‘undress’ Polaris pectoral. 5. Holy Country militia plate pectoral. D: Composite armor 1. Linothorax of linen and tooled leather from Mo Baustra, with decorated pteruges. 2. Lunar Linothorax of linen and scale, with an embroidered design of the Red Emperor in the guise of Yelm the Archer. 3. Ring mail hauberk with leather pteruges. 4. Tarsh Exiles hauberk fashioned from plates of cuir boilli with heavy leather pteruges. 5. Yeloranan hemithorakion half-cuirass worn over a scale hauberk with leather shoulder-flaps and pteruges skirt. 6. Turtle-shell cuirass – used in the Holy Country and by initiates of Hiia Swordsman. 7. A rare and expensive chain mail hauberk probably manufactured by dwarves, with short leather pteruges.

Albert Bacon Pratt’s Helmet Gun... Didn't catch on...

A: Rapiers – both duelist weapons. B: Daggers - from top to bottom: two Sartarite daggers (second inlaid with a hunting scene); two Esrolian daggers; a Western style dagger. C: Daggers – from top to bottom: Dara Happan; two Lunar daggers; Sairdite Solar dagger; Grazelander dagger (with an Orlanthi style blade).

Not if the cultures concerned have had a period of relatively peaceful contact, which is the case. I suspect that we are seeing 'events' in God Time through several filters, and even the Dara Happan culture is more a construct of synthesis than initial unity. Again, an in-world 'document' as mortal heroquesting appears to not just allow interaction with myth, but over time modifies it. It depends on the colours of the Gloranthan metals, and the colour of the planets. I've seen Mars through Lowell's telescope, and it looked more brown than red. These discussions remind me of the mythology books I collect - two different publishers, both issuing their books from around 1900 into the 1930s. One simply presents the myths, the other instead mostly explores the mythologies, tries to draw ethnographic and historical conclusions, which from the perspective of modern knowledge are often profoundly wrong, as a century of advances in archaeology and fields the authors didn't even imagine completely demolish their careful analysis. So there are long digressions on Pharoahs having red hair (they didn't, chemical analysis shows it results from the preparation of the body) and other topics. The other interesting aspect of the books is their presentation - you can see historical events having an impact: they begin with leather and gilt embossed boards, and end with cardboard boards. But that's a digression... These discussions are fun, but Glorantha is a puzzle we can't ever solve, which makes it more like real mythologies than almost all other fantasy worlds.

Possibly two false associations? Similarity in colour does not denote similarity in nature; as bronze is the metal most used in (human) warfare, it would become associated with a war god?

Neither source is likely to be an 'objective' truth. For that matter, the Guide gives two distinct lists of Yelm's Sons: one including Zator and the other, Buserian. Regarding Shargash's Underworld nature, it is probably significant that his planet follows the Southpath (which is taken to include Underworld entities in the Sky in central Genertela). not the Sunpath (Sky entities). [Didn't see your post prior to posting this.]

There's a fairly long sequence in the Guide to Glorantha - the Heavens Corrupted illustrated sequence (pages 114-115) which includes: 6. The Pit, and Umath A flaw appears in the Dome, and from it comes Umath, who moves everything. 7. Umath’s Spiral of Destruction Rebelling against Yelm’s rules, Umath bursts into angry violence. Umath moves in a wide circle through the Middle Sky, provoking the other Sons of Yelm to respond. Several sons are destroyed, others corrupted by his movements. 8. Umath and Shargash Shargash is struck directly by Umath. The Red Planet thrusts the invader onward, and then follows after. Umath is fatally wounded and wobbles around the sky, sinking lower. Shargash moves inside of Umath’s path, protecting the City. 9. The Death of Umath Umath and Shargash fight with missiles; eventually Umath wavers, and then crashes down in the far north. One of the Sons of Yelm goes into the Pit and is never seen again. Instead, the first myriad of stars comes out. Fatally wounded by Shargash, Umath crashes upon North Camp. This starts the tilting north-south Dome Movement. It goes northward first, because the Pillar there is broken, until it is pushed back even harder by Kalikos. The rebellious Sons of Umath then rise out of the ruined North Camp, bearing the weapons of their dead father.

Strength may be a variable spell, but I doubt it would help very much against a falling SIZ 30+ lizard...

Here's a piece of fantasy art by Angus McBride. For him, there's a fairly high fantasy quotient in the armour, but the bell cuirass worn by Penthesilea isn't unrealistic.

Farming in the Pavis and Sun Counties is reliant upon a relationship with Zola Fel and his children? The bounty of farms in Sun County is reliant upon the Count's relationship with Kinope. Perhaps there are similar rituals in Pavis County?

She's going to be dinner - squashed canned dinner. I suppose I should explain what detracts from the larger image for me: The anatomy isn't convincing, the figure being 'nine+ heads' or so in height, more reminiscent of fashion art than fantasy; the armour is wrong - almost form fitting (the cuirass extends far below the waist limiting the range of movement of the wearer, the greaves and helmet are too 'tight' for any padding, and having armour without padding over bone (be it skull or shins) means that trauma will be projected directly to the bone, with unpleasant consequences - RQ helmets like real-world helmets would include some integral padding, and if her hair is braided up as padding there's no room for it under the helmet) with an awful lot of ornamentation which will guide instead of deflect blows with a sword or spear; the sword doesn't seem to be connected to the hilt; the beastie appears to be dropping from the cliff above, and the warrior simply won't be able to withstand the weight. It's a bit like assuming that if a cow or horse was dropped down on you, you'd walk away. The smaller image is better, because it fixes or disguises some of the problems. Now, as general fantasy art, it isn't awful; the use of colour is effective. So I'm perhaps being pedantic, but RQ is the game that was almost called Limb Quest for the gritty nature of its combat? Of course, it's ultimately a question of personal taste: both Chris Achilleos and the late lamented Angus McBride have produced excellent artwork, but even when illustrating fantasy, McBride's armour was more realistic. For that matter, Mark Smylie's Artesia comic depicted armour that was increasingly accurate and realistic when the decision was made that nudity would be depicted when and where necessary for the story, and as a result after the first issue or two, when characters wore armour, they wore the entire panoply, without bits left out...