French Desperate WindChild

i had the same paradox in mind until this post (and in fact... that's one of the reasons of my post) yelmalio (or the god behind yelmalio) tried to win of course but was defeated. now when you're heroquesting you act as you think your god acted. If you are devoted enough, or convinced enough that you will lose because that was what your god did, well, you lose. would call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". And if at the end of the day, you don't lose, you will find some explanation ... wasn't really Zorak Zoran in front of you, or you were not on the hill of gold but somewhere else where Yelmalio won, or ... or maybe, you lose your devotion

my answer may be useless as my house rules impact probably it, so pick what you want if you see something interesting my general principles : - gods are sentient and "passionate" - gods may interact with the world even without mundane trigger (dream, call , any communication, reprisals, ... ), in all cases a little bit and only with their worshippers or around them - people may be initiate even without "call of the gods" : after all there is no requirement to be initiated to your parent's gods . So initiates may be "chosen" or not then inititate may have devotion or not. Like irl, you may belong to a cult even without faith, even without belief. There is a difference in glorantha, everyone "knows" and "experiments" the god existence. Any initiate feels during initiation the god presence. So the devotion doesn't mean you believe, the devotion means how much you are able to welcome (during ceremony, quest...) or to act for your god interests even against your own interests (that may explain the Issaries aspect). And of course more devoted you are, more your god appreciate you and can act for you.

or (just an option, not opinion) there are some "runic regions" : in a runic region, if something enough important happen to the godplane, then all the region is impacted. the other regions may be impact too but less. in the same way that there is heroquest impacting the heroquestor and heroquest impacting the community (village/ clan / tribe) , we may have heroquest impacting a region (another example may be Snodal's travel) we know at least two heroquests impacting the (mundane world) after all ( Zzabur * and Argrath **) * don't know if it was a real heroquest or "just" mundane sorcery but in my opinion it cannot be only made with mundane material ** in fact I don't know if what is said about the gods after Argrath is only for the "region" or for the world

don't sure the CA ability is the answer : if the SB is calm, it means the spell is no more here, so the HP bonus is.... away. In my opinion, the CA should have find a way to heal the SB before she calm the berserker => declaration of actions "I will calm the SB then I will cast immediatly ..." is fine for me but "I will calm the SB" is just killing the warrior (depending on the gm & CA player I would expect or not it as a warning or as the end of the SB pc 🙂 ) I think the consequence of a berserker spell end should be discussed before any cast with the GM. Depending on the GM she could say "no when the spell ends, the bonus is over so if you are dead you are dead" or "of course you will survive if someone succeed to heal you" Then you know what strategy apply (or not after all a good roleplay is sometimes to decide that your acts will probably call the Death but at least it is a good story) my own way is your friends have one round to to heal you. If you sacrifice yourself, is a good devotee of your god, you may gain one or two additional rounds (sometimes healers are not successful). and if, as a player, you did not respect the people around the table... just roll against your reputation pc and add 100% bonus.. if you succeed... well your death will be song in all prax and your legendary sacrifice will be known even in Nochet and overseas !

@jajagappa I fully agree with your description of the impact for the community, no issue, and i would consider fool any yelmalian wanting to save the fire too (in fact a part mad people, who can hope changing the eternal gods ?) but if I choose Hill of Gold that is because this the quest where I have no question thanks to @soltakss site years ago (I can't put the link on your site, it doesn't respond) @Joerg thanks too for your explanation (in msg).

Thanks Jeff you confort me. For decades, I have believed / misunderstood that the term "myth" in glorantha was equal to "history" -aka what the gods did - but no they are "just stories" that people believe (with more proof than elsewhere as they can all "experiment") Im happy to see I was wrong and the gloranthan myths are just myths. I m so confortable now !

but what you both describe are discovered myths , aren't they ? or did they build from scratch new myths ?

don't focus on my example, I choose Yelmalio example as the myth seems very stable (the defeat), so changing it should have a big impact in the world. My point is the impact of the world (if there is), not how to change the cold sun into someone else 🙂 in fact... we are not so far from my idea (as maybe non canonical and may forks my inital post I "spoil it" 😛 ) : yep I agree. My point is not to challenge players who propose something "new" or to say them "no", I want to understand if the characters discover something or create something. because depending on this answer, it could trigger different scenario (social with the cult, or with the gods, or ...) yes I tried to avoid to use these words as we are discussing about thing "before time" but I agree 😛 your post is interesting too , does this model fit with your answer ? we can define gods at different level (not level of power, more level of "identity") level 0 : mortal becoming gods (apotheosis) level 1: aspect of the gods (subcult in rqg) level 2: named gods (cult in rqg) level 3: unknowable deity (a root of different named gods, maybe the celestial court ?) level 4: the runes level 5: unity if it means something merge it with the invisible god and now, we know that Orlanth Invisible is not Orlanth at all : Orlanth is a level 2 god, when Orlanth Invisible = unknowable = unreachable) is level 3 god ! even if we seems to be at the opposite * way about gods (machine or not) this point fits a lot. Considering my universe laws option, illumination helps you to accept that you are yourself in the gods plane and even if you are a stranger you can stay here * and that's the point : with one more abstraction level, there is no opposition if you consider "your machine" are the universe laws and "my gods" are the first being who explored a path and guide the others (their worshippers) to the path (sharing their power = rune spells or showing how to get your own power = heroic spell)

yep for sure my example was about something "impossible", about the deep nature of god etc.. the issue I have with "discover new myths" is exactly my question 🙂 (with my words...) to discover = to find something not new but never found or forgotten so it is not possible, with my understanding or logic, "to discover a new myth", you can create a new myth (change the god plane) or you can discover an unknown myth (the god plane doesn't change, only you)

there is something i don't know about the impact of heroquesting in the world we know that with heroquesting you can bring some magic/relic from the gods plan, we know that you can "experiment" something different than what was teached in the temple but... is there a possibility that an experience is impossible to live? is the myth (aka what was done before time) frozen, and everything you can do during your heroquest was done during the myth ? or is it possible to change the myth, to transform the "before time" ? when I say change the myth, I don't say "change what the cult teach, but really what happened ages ago" Not sure my words are clear so let's go on a simple example^^ a community, powerful enough to do anything possible (the question is "what is possible"), decides to explore the hill of gold but wants yelmalio to keep his fire power. So day after day the heroquestors try to defeat ZZ. then there are few possibilities : 1) you cannot change your god (not what you believe, but really your god). if a lucky heroquestor succeed to defeat ZZ, that means that unvolontary (or not) the questor "merged" or "changed" yelmalio with another fire deity, keeping for him the fire (summon fire elemantal...) or for his community (fireblade...) OR there is an aspect of Yelmalio's myth where Yelmalio was able to defeat ZZ and kept his fire. We, gloranthan, forgot it but a powerful heroquestor may discover this aspect of the myth, teach it and "update" the cult in both cases the god and the myth don't change, it is your knowledge which changes 2) you can change / create your god : never Yelmalio did it in the myth, no aspects, no forgotten story, nothing: If you meet LM he will tell you "no that did not happen" but if enough heroquestors succeed (by experimental heroquest), they change the gods plan /and a new yelmalio (not the same) is created, may be the new one doesn't replace the old one and two gods exist now... Are heroquestors able to "create" gods ? not really successfull with the goddesses switch, but did the god learners "roll" a fumble (2 = they could succeed ) or just tried something impossible (1 = they had 0% chance to succeed) ? from a play perspective, in all cases pc may gain some specific powers their gods don't have, unvolontary or volontary (arkatism or thing like that) and it can be explained by a "confusion" of deities more than an aspect of the deity the pc "played". So the point is not really what power a pc may gain, but more to understand what is god plane/ heroquest

that is my own answer. cultists have few rune spells. If they want more "high" magic -not spirit spell- they have to explore the god plane(s), for them or for their community (in a less powerful version).

From a backgroud perspective : I don't imagine, in my glorantha, dwarves as those who have "lust wealth / gold / diamonds / ...", those who drink, eat and sing more than other races, those who challenge the other races to demonstrate how stonger they are, hunting orcs and other Melkor's minions. Those who go to adventure to accumulate wealth Not in my glorantha, yes in my middle earth or d&d play (if I had those kind of play) In my glorantha dwarves are focused on their tunnels and their plans no one understand. They don't care about gold or other metals as something else than material to build / repair the machine and their tools they are as weird as dragonewt. But when dragonewt are weird because they seem too irrational, the dwarves are weird because they seem too rational. In that case what should be an iron dwarf ? a warrior able to defend the big caves ? for sure then they need a good size a warrior able to attack some "outside" ennemies ? sometimes but not really often, then they need a good size but that is not enough : we need some "managers" in crisis situation, logisticians able to organize the retreat in good order, architects and engineers building the last defense to slow the invaders, etc.. they don't need to be big, if they have the skills and of course we need those who can exploit their environment in a way the ennemies cannot feel : those who build very small tunnels (oh a good LM would say " that is probably a ventilation system") to spray or throw any lethal material (gaz, bomb, nail, anything) those who can (with their hammer of course) start an avalanche of rocks* exactly when the ennemy is at the right place. those who can lead all these little... things ? made of clay metal or flesh but "build" by the dwarves oh these one need to be little, need to have a size < 3 they are made for that tall dwarves may have to trigger avalanche too, so hammer is better than sword or spear or axe then. not to open world, but to dwarf world. they are strangers, really strangers in the open world, in my opinion what about a dwarf pc ? well i don't enjoy a lot that idea, because, in my opinion, they are not made for open world, will be accepted with difficulty, and will accept the world with even more difficulties. So my first question would be what is a dwarf ? a small warrior, who loves beer and gold and gems ? able to "offer" big dammage ? those smith bringing disorder with them, those who hate and want to kill on sight some evil monster like orcs (hum broo ) ? take a small human (pretty sure tolkien's dwarves are size 8+ !) initiate him to storm bull, choose the warrior (heavy infantry with close helmet ?) occupation. Add a personal skill on smithing... put him a big beard, my own stomach, add lust beer and lust wealth passions and you have exactly what you want oh sure the kids from this little village will call you dwarf, probably the parents too before you open your helmet, maybe even after... and you will grumble... but wait, is grumbling the speciality of dwarfs ? ( and french too, some says ...) of course if the choice is to play a "true gloranthan dwarf" it is something else but in that case, as @JRE said, it cannot be a dwarf with all his iron gear. You need, (in my glorantha, do what you want in yours for sure ! ) to define a reason why the dwarf is outside, why will he go with humans or even worst adventurers and why or when he had/will lose his gear (after few scenarii... maybe his previous mine will hunt him to get back the iron, all the iron, maybe all the material, even the dwarf material...) by the way, an important point in "my" creation process, i don't roll dices for charcteristics so it helps to "build" what players want without envy or frustration random could generate, sometimes (a 12 INT sorcerer, a size 18 gimli... or a 120 pc against a 90 pc... etc) So when the rules say 2d6 that just means to me that a dwarf pc can have a size between 2 and 12. I don't need to change the stats of the book, I just use it not as a creation process but as a creation boundary

You re not alone 🙂 however Jeff’s answer is interesting, less impressive (no sacrifice ) but more vegan 😛 Months ago I had the idea of the both ways: the regular way when your priest decide to organized the approval ceremony and then come with the animal or objet destined to « welcome » the allied spirit (if the new rune master is accepted) and another way, when the god itself decide to promote* the initiate and send directly an allied spirit in a material form * with the same magical advantages but not the social role. but the new holy person would be able to present some clear evidence of her new status if she wants

No book I know 🙂 but if you see what a shaman is able to do, I think you may propose some abilities in the same way

i play it as 1 per "scene" during 3 hours irl, you may play : - 1 gloranthan day (like a little tournament for example, but with a lot of activities, roleplaying and dices rolling) - 1 gloranthan season (like a big journey, with few events : start, 2 encounters, arrival) I see no reason to say that if you use an ability per gloranthan day (example of the tournament, next session you will be able to use it again) you are not able to use an ability several times during a gloranthan season (example of the journey) so I prefer to define "scene" the tournament is a scene, the start (hiring, organizing, planning) is a scene, the first encounter week 3 is a scene, the second encounter week 7 is another scene, etc...

with a little addition (if i m not wrong, do not hesitate to confirm) you can cast only 1 rune spell per round *, as it takes effect always sr 1 (p314) of course there are some exception with spells (like extension) or heroic abilities for example

that was the same for me I thought to "defend" your position but i did not find any evidence in rqg in the french one (oriflam) decades ago, there was something about the weapon losing AP when damage are > AP but not for shield, if i remember well (not the books here so not sure)

in that case, it would be some trollkin to become rune lords, not the troll leaders, sending their little warriors, but not fighting by themselves if they can avoid it. Will you let trollkin become rune lords ? naaaah impossible. but standard AA are in my opinion a merchant, herault, negociator, explorator... able to defend themselves but not looking for fight and glory. And if I were a vindictive AA, I would pay some martial experts to train a large trollkin troops, focusing myself on magic (support and attack)

don't forget the >100% skill rule so at the end of the day it is not [200% - (n * 20% or 10%) against a 100% opponent's skill ] but [100% - (n * 20% or 10%) against a 5% opponent luck] the >100% skill rule seems to me a good way to accelerate the fight : there is a no match between a master with 200% against 5 average guys with. 50%. you don't even have to try to parry your art is enough to not let opportunities to be touched by low levels (with any stacking debuff, -20 or -10) against your range opponent (200% against 200%) that becomes a 100% versus 100% then there is a difference between the -20 and the -10 note that i m not a big defender of the rules, I would prefer something else.. but I m not able to define something smart enough to say "hey it is really better than the official"

I think windwhistler is a wyrm so really bigger (10 -30m? ), without arms, with wings, no cloth, etc... a "non initiate" would see him as a "dragon" in my opinion yes that's my idea too for the rest, kralorela, slarge, etc... no enough knowledge to say anything 😛

I like and think it as a very important point the true faith is the faith in the invisible god, but a bargain activity (don't say worship !) is efficient with what the barbarians call "gods". So why not having trade (sacrifice as payment) with them ? Of course few people would have a real faith in these entities, but then they are not good malkioni any more (rightness 0 ?) and are now considered as pagans, heretics or anything, and must be reeducated by the zzaburi, keepers of the good morale order

My own opinion only 🙂 location : unfortunately the two "standard arms" get 6 points in the location table, hard to split in 4 so I would say: don't change anything, roll as usual, if it is right arm, then roll a d2 : 1 the true one, 2 the draconic one. Same for left arm hp: no change, the two new arms get the same hp than the others. No change too in the total arms activities : yes they can be trained... well experienced only, except if the arms can "stay" for a season. there is no technical reason (in teh rule) for a master to not train a dwarf like a human, even if the size is not the same (so the movement may be a little different) so there is no reason to train the second left arm (there is no "technics" in rqg so there is no question to define a "4 arms technic" as there is no "2arms technic", they are just seen as different arms). The issue i would play is more roleplay. Are you a chaotic monster ? Is it the mark of the dragon ? I fear/hate the dragons, they eat my family. Note that my questions will not be asked all the time to the pc. Sometimes they will be answered directly by the master and their buller friends And the pc is kralori... so weird in a not east setting. (yes my glorantha is not open minded) heroquesting : first the same than a two arms person. then, in addition, something that transform your 2 magical arms into natural arms (aka the pc has four arms all the time, no needs of magic) But having 2 magical arms is better to demonstrate you are a human with magic (see .. hop only 2 arms now) than having 4 arms like any chaotic monster with this feature... true !

"of course" theism and spiritism are less effective: based on Jeff's post they all have to spend 1 POW to become initiate of the invisible god. So there are less POW for the cults / spirit societies than in non malkioni society. Another point would be the nature of the faith: as malkioni + X initiate you are not fully devoted to your god /entity X. You know there is something/one behind X, bigger, less understandable but incredibly more powerful than X. And a third hypothesis would be that a community cannot get more "magical" power than a limit per individual, defined by the universe laws. After all, everyone, malkioni or not, lives in a world of runes/ So any way/magic, you follow, you will not be able to find more rune than what exist. Every time a community tried to "extract" more rune than possible, chaos becomes bigger, and, at the end of the process, a new age reboots everything

why ? is it usefull to have another system ? What we know is - the non zabburi worship entities (i don't say gods 😛 ) and the invisible god - the non zabburi use caste magic why not considering that caste magic is just the spells (spirit or runic *) that are allowed for their caste then a horali worshipping humakt(or his local name) is allowed to use any humakt spell when a dromali smith worshipping humakt may know the secret of iron but not severe spirit, for example. i would prefer to not add new magic system, it would create complexity (and maybe more unbalance and complain), when now we have - a simple system based on POW, for any spell, because it is your "power" - a simple system based on rune score associated with the desired spell, because it is "some runic one" else magic - a maybe simple system based on rune score associated with the desired heroic power, because it is your own runic power - a complex (but for me exactly what should be sorcery for sorcerer = research, study and analysis for both player and character ) system because it is your "science" and as the malkioni have less spells than their theistic/shamanist peers, the rightness score may give some bonus (maybe like the lunar magic*, another sub system, something like the ability to "manipulate" their spirit spells) *game design, not background explanation

in my poor opinion, sorcery is an elitist option. You should have proof of your ability to be teached : could be int minimum, and / or your cast if you have one, and / or your sex, and / or your god (not only the religion aka malkionism, do dormali, lunar and lankhoring worship the invisible god to be able to learn sorcery ? ) Then you should join your “school” depending on its criteria. But once you joined it, you must learn, and learn and learn, because it is not like a spirit or rune spell. You need more than one week to be efficient. You need years and years. So, for me, if you (regular people, not pc) don’t want to become a sorcerer, don’t want to dedicate your life in research and training, you don’t try to learn sorcery, because it is not profitable. Of course there are exception, this one who is able to do a minor effect after two or three or five tries. So let the farmers spend their time to feed the others Let the warriors spend their time to improve their weapons skills when they are not in battle Let the nobles (those who manage) lead the societies. But yes some of their kin (those who have time to “lost” because they have no responsibility but the parents wealth) may learn it as a “hobby” Let the merchants do their business to obtain needed components to others activity and make money for their community (and themselves) Of course some of this “efficiency logic” is in some communities a law (I don’t know which one so I don’t use any example) but that is not only a question of religion: is a LM allowed to teach sorcery to anyone who is a reader (aka a LM lay member at least) ? probably will they do it ? why ? what waste of time ? Teaching a [smart] warrior to see them able to improve their skills 10% of the time and lost them the initiative 90% of their fight because they failed ? It is more efficient to be paid to cast a spell every week/season/ … than to teach them Now what about a pc, or any exception ? Yes they can pay / seduce / join a secret society / ... do what is needed to learn sorcery. And then they will be efficient or not, but they are the exception (good one if they succeed to cast; wrong one if they waste their time for few % and not in cult secret to gain heroic power)