French Desperate WindChild

in my opinion, you have to augment their reputation now everyone knows them as the losers who failed. good deed or bad deed = more reputation : the stat doesn't show what people think about you, only they recognize you they can't (for me). But if they meet some chaoos, they may consider this chaos is what they summoned. but maybe there is just an accident, and the true summoned chaos is not yet here I would consider that, if the spell is successful, it means that the summoned evil arrives in all cases. Maybe the evil is not made "from scratch" and is hunted by others, but the hunters will not succeed to catch it before the summoners meet the evil. they may arrive after the fight, during the fight (and decide to join their effort or no) but there is a fate, the evil must meet the summoners of course if the spell is a failure, the evil may be summoned, and destroyed before it joins the summoners

there is a difference between chaos and evil I may have some house chaotic rules, so to not confuse you, I will try to answer only about what I understand as canon : - doing chaotic things transform you into chaotic creatures eat human flesh and you will become an ogre (except when it is organized in some not chaotic worshipping rituals, maran gor,etc) rape and you will become a broo (having sex with your wife or praxian concubines who doesn't want seems to not be chaotic (for me, no is no, even if you are married or slave... so it should be considered as a rape too)) "will become" is not instant, it may take time. And you may face other consequences. probably chaos will come in addition. - breaking some rules could summon chaotic things that doesn't mean you will become a chaotic thing, just that now there is chaos around you. kinstrife, things like that - what is evil depends on people: killing, pillage, ... that's not chaotic ! that's ok for orlanthi, lunar, praxian, ... sometimes some cults (Uleria, Chalana, ...), honor and other rules ot lox will tell you that killing A is fine and killing B is evil, however. But that is not chaotic because it is evil. It is evil. [house rule] what I think is chaos is summoned when people believe (consciously or not) that chaos will appear. Illumination reduces this risk but not completly (you are a new you, yes, but there are remnants of your past), but at the end of the day you illuminate don't care if there is chaos or not, except if this new thing is a threat for you, as the villagers may be a threat for you. Of course if chaos is already here, you can try to believe there is no chaos, that doesn't change the fact that chaos is here. there are probably other way to "summon" chaos even when you are/were not yet chaotic. But it seems to me something to keep in mind, there is probably chaos if you think/fear there is chaos [/house rule] baby ogre is an ogre. there is instinct, there is hunger, there is chaos. could baby now adult not hear his instinct ? yes until there is a crisis. In my opinion a lot of reason may trigger the "call of his true nature", no food of course, a big threat, a too big anger against him, ... or just blood smell... and remember his "new parents" are not ogres: they are human, they smell human: they are preys, lovely preys perhaps, but preys. Illumination may help him, still an ogre but less ... passionate. or a heroquest to clean him : no more chaotic, no more an ogre (no more STR bonus too, if it is the question) just a human

I agree in the case of the other subcults are for men. But in the case of women can join any subcult, without being initiate of vinga (aka apple lane god talker), what does this subcult ?

for me all of this is too disturbing (not sure of the word, i m looking for something respectfull). I don't say anything about our world, in our societies, with our knowledges, our values, our religions and philosopies. I'm just focusing on glorantha where we can find these two gods the father and the mother, the king and the queen, etc... Orlanth, designed as the god of men with its equivalent, Ernalda, designed as the goddess of women Even if I have no words for the other genders and sexs in the next sentences, I have it in mind too but it is already complex to manage only the M+F point. in this cult of Orlanth (rqg version), anyone (man or not) is welcomed. But there is a society, a subcult, in the cult who is woman only. saying everyone can join any Orlanth subcult is fine for me. There is a logic of role, you want to be a warrior, adventurer, speaking with the wind, flying, etc... join Orlanth, don't care you are not a man and Orlanth is about a man (after all a god is able to do a lot of things, even sex and gender things) saying men can join any subcult except vinga, and women can join vinga subcult only is fine for me. There is a logic of "backdoor": Orlanth is for men, but, for those women who want to join, there is a specific path. saying some Orlanth subcult are for everyone, some are dedicated to men and some are dedicated to women is fine The logic is a mix of all: Orlanth is a god of men, but a part of its domain is for everyone, the men secrets are in the specific men subcults and the women discovered some wind's women path they teach in the specific women subcult to use the "wind powers of men" but saying anyone can join Orlanth, but only women can join Vinga subcult... What could be the logic (again, gloranthan only) ? I don't see it. Except.. Orlanth is a woman, and use a mask of man. She evaded the sun court with Ernalda her lover and took the power of Umath, now dead. That would explain why Eurmal is accepted in Orlanth society... Doing this kind of work needs some help... Is there any other option ? why a cult of men could accept anyone but reject men from a specific subcult ? it is a true question, I m not doing any politic, just I m looking for a reason of a Vinga exclusive* in a Orlanth inclusive* cult (* not sure of the words too but you see my point I hope)

yes and that's, for me, the fundamental issue.

And apologies I just saw that David answered (of course better than me) about the woman thunderous question . Don’t know how I missed his answer when I wrote mine…I m too studying Eurmal probably

The good question then… can a man join the vingan subcult ? day after day I see Vinga (the one worshipped in a subcult of Orlanth ) just as a named thunder brother/sister who did some great deed and then is able to provide one specific spell. nothing to do with gender or other thing. No restrictions about gender, sex and sexuality. Really nothing except one… the only gendered role then is that an Orlanth worshipper (vinga subcult or not, any gender,any sex ) can become leader of a sartarite community and then has the « man » position when the « woman » position if for a worshipper of Ernalda . Of course is the community is based on a Orlanth+Ernalda leadership It seems to me simple, without any irl issue

don't know how far from the official rules I am but 1) with me, you cannot burn any of your characteristic (STR, POW, mp, ...) if it is not for a sacrifice (I accept to die - or to risk my life, being inconscious, etc... - to save my friend, for example) so no you cannot lose your mp to 0 (or even your pow). 2) the goddess is not dumb, after one or two "calls" (if you are able to trick my first rule) the goddess will be angry... reprisals, gnomes, snakes, T Rex, no more spells, a babs "friend", curse like -50% penalty on all CHA related skills -seduction, orate, ... - ? all depend on what you did for the goddess before and why you do such blasphemy.

I manage it like that (for a subcult, for a rank in a cult, for another cult) : a) you must fit all the requirements from the rules books b) you must "prove" that you deserve to be accepted (for example you may have friends or loyalties who support you, you may have passions others have seen conforting your request, you have some success aligned with your target, get some blessing from the god, etc...) it should (in my opinion) be storytelling first, then stats requirement. At least one adventure session, something like that. But if you play it in a different way, with only stats requirement, that is exactly what you said

seems to me totally different : this critical was in the otherworld, not mundane. It shows something different, something ununderstandable happend because trigered (aka GM imagination) however that doesn't mean you must let Argrath be accepted as the leader as the story says. you may decide that more clans or tribes want to see Leika as leader and Argrath may have other diplomacy tools to use : marriage (?!), 2 kings (cesaer + pompey), murder, bribe, magical duel, magical proof (the flame !)... Or just clans/tribes accept that Leika lead them until they discover Argrath After all, the critical roll just says," hey it is Leika or no one, so Leika !" But in few weeks, the topic will be "hey is it Leika or Argrath ?" And what will happen during these few weeks ? will Leika / and PC succeed or fail ? Will propaganda succeed or fail ?

Apple lane: Kareena God-talker of Orlanth Thunderous. Female, age 55. Hiording clan. (adventure book p66) as gold-talkers have the same restriction than priest in Orlanth cult, you've got a reference 😉

I have no issue with the Vinga subcult as part of Orlanth only. But I fully agree with your words here, it is sad that the "man inside" gender has the same name than the woman warrior of Orlanth. not only because people may be lost with the two definitions but as you said a "woman inside" may be a warrior and a "man inside" may be a peaceful guy. Or does that mean that no "man (inside + outside)" can join Chalana ? Just nandan ? but that is bronze age and setting. I play it as "some/few Sartarites may mock a man (not nandan) who is just a healer and may be afraid by a woman (not vingan) with weapons. Lot of Sartarites are barbarian, after all etc..." So everyone can do everything if there is no real requirement (aka cult descriptionn and there are at the end very few requirement, I don't remember if there is any "man only" requirement ) After all a woman is Orlanth thunder priest in Apple Lane, is there any reason you will not meet a woman of the Adventurous - not vinga - subcult, Odayla subcult of Orlanth, Yinkin subcult of Orlanth... but some may face some unpleasant attitude (or not, frequency up to the GM)

it s true that the guide is a mix of canon and gloranthan perspective however there are, in my opinion 2 (soon 3) canon source for Vinga : a) the core rule book: it is a subcult and an aspect of Orlanth, not a goddess " by divine right " b) what Jeff said: it is as subcult and an aspect of Orlanth c) what the cult of glorantha will say: it is (probably , I don't have it) a subcult and an aspect of Orlanth However, that doesn't mean that gms cannot have there own Vinga,their Vinga can be a full daughter, full sister, full different divinity than Orlanth, for their pleasure. Just, for me, it is not canon ,and people should have it in mind. that is an interesting question. Which Vinga character could say that ? What kind of experience she would have to say "no : everything the cult says, everything the priests teached me, everything I experimented during initiation, sacred time and other ceremonies are wrong: Vinga is not Orlanth" I m looking for this kind of answer (not for vinga, but for other problematic) How a character could doubt about what she know as "obvious evidence". Of course madness and illumination but... what else ?

my perspective is very different : there is no "truth" we have only sources based on "what people say" some gloranthan think it is Argrath, some it is Kallyr, some it is the dragon itself, some it is the god(dess) XXX etc up to each gm to choose if it is needed (but is it) of course until I publish the true story of this event, target date : 2163 then you will have the canon about this event

don't know if I'm wrong : I imagine the spirit world with at least one more dimension than the mundane world. for exemple if we modelize the mundane world as a line (x = 0 means Boldhome, x = 1 means Clearwine, x = 2 means Jonstown, etc...), the spirit world could be modelized as a plan (x,y) with y =0 means "overlap with the mundane world" there is a place (x = 0, y = 0) which fit withs Boldhome, there is place (x = 1, y =0) which fits with Clearwine What is the impact : if the spirit wants to be visible in Boldhome(to interact with the mundane world for example) it must be in (x=0,y=0) and becomes visible : anyone cansee it If the same spirit wants to not be visible in Boldhome but wants to follow the pc who are in Boldhome, it must be in (x=0, y=0) but mundane entities (living, allied spirits or any spirits bound in a mundane object) can see it only with second sight or if they are able to discorporate if the same spirit is not in the "y=0 position" no one can see it from the mundane worldeven with second sight. people must discorporate then travel (to reach at least y>0 position) about "little spirits" (an ant for example) Second sight is not miraculous. It shows what your "range" of pow can see. So as you are probably not able to see every ant when you walk, your not able to see every ant pow. You must focus your attention on a point, and maybe you will see a 0.1 pow entity. In the same way you must focus your attention on this specific 10cm2 location to see my best ant friend 😉 about the grass, etc... (and maybe the ants after all) I imagine it as a kind of wyter. individuals have no sense for pow detection. So there is an aggregate spirit. but this spirit is able to "move" anywhere in the location it covers. That means it could be seen somewhere in its "domain" and not elsewhere, until it moves to another location.Of course (in my opinion) bigger is its pow bigger is the place where it can be seen (same system than my ant pow, but with bigger pow than "human size")

In my opinion there are different options : you may find a temple dedicated to Vinga subcult of Orlanth Adventurous subcult of Orlanth. In this temple all the hierarchy is dedicated to Vinga and you may find shrine of Adventurous, Thunderous, Odayla, etc ... If I remember well there is a temple of adventurous in Boldhome so there is no reason another subcult is not able to get its own temple and dedicated hierachy, if there is enough worshipers you may find a location where the god of Air and Air warrior is called Vinga the goddess. But you may find someone, stranger, merchant able to say "your Vinga is my Orlanth" they are the same entity but, for me, there is no option to say here is Vinga cult and in the same place here is Orlanth Cult and they are two different gods worshipped in the same place. They have the same spells, the same runes, the same myths, and noone say they have twins. So they are the same. That is for me the difference with Odayla or Yinkin subcults of Orlanth (not the same runes and spells than "standard" Orlanth) that's for glorantha, or my glorantha. but that raises something else. Something focused on our real world issues and not any gloranthan logic. Yes it is true, some real people may suffer (I m not sure about my good use of "may", of course there are people in our world who suffer about x or y ) about some points, woman position issue, slavery, murder, broos activities, religion, gender, madness, war etc... there is a setting, it is as is (well with different versions, my version is RQG now) If something is wrong in this setting for somebody, the YGMV (or OGMV, i prefer the Our, we are equals, my glorantha is not better than yours) is here to manage it. but management doesn't mean in all cases cancellation, change, etc.. It depends a lot on the people around the table, and the GM* capacity to present it in a good manner. Sometimes, to confront something will give you more weapons to face it and you will be stronger irl Sometimes, to confront something will open or expand a wound * I'm not saying I m good for that, sometimes I know I would fail miserably -and sometimes I fail-, so I avoid the issue when I m not confident and the consequences would be troublesome for someone, of course

some ideas, after trying "to be" Leika or some sartarties and imagine their perspectives. 1) the kingdom itself Sartar (the country ) was found less than 3 centuries ago. In my opinion, that's not a lot to consider all sartarites as "sartarite first" before being tribal and clan members. Being part of a kingdom means for some people less freedom and identity tham being part of a tribe (discuss with Boris Johnson to understand it 😛 ). It needs a lot of time to create a feeling of belonging. So in my opinion, sartarites have more loyalties and concerns with their tribe than with their "country". Even in Boldhome, the tribes are so important. 2) Kalyr herself true or false : she failed a revolt years ago, with so many deads, without a lot of respect for their lives and sacrifice. she headed a magical ceremony with so much negative impact she favoured her own (few) friends with not a lot of respect for the other tribal kings and rings everyone knows how irritable and irritating she was, and how she can refuse wise advices when she had some convictions, even wrong convictions the last battle was not a big success with so many kings deaths. She was not a so great war leader after all. Energy is one thing, intelligence and prudence another one. 3) the tribes so many leaders are dead. they must find new Orlanth rex. It means months of political struggles, or maybe worst. So it seams impossible to find a reliable and strong agreement between the different tribes before. 4) the date we will enter the earth season. We need to eat (windstop is recent), to rebuild our clan, our blood. It is our primary priority 5) Leika is it a good time to a non Sartar's heir to claim the "crown" when - you are pretty sure you will not find any agreement with other tribe - your tribe is not able to "force" other tribes to accept your domination - the lunar empire is still here and dangerous and will come back, seeking revenge The priority should be to stengthen your people, and your own army too. Wait for a year or two, create some alliance with the next leaders, if they are strong, prepare magical support and quests. Then if you want Sartar (is it so important for Leika ?), if you are able to defeat the Lunars next wave, if you can obtain support of a majority of others tribes and temples, if you are able to visit of the other world and then get some regalia or power showing Orlanth (and Sartar himself) support your wish to lead Sartar, you may succeed. There is no reason to follow Kallyr path, again. 6) John Do Maybe you like Colymar and Leika, and you probably think she was right. Maybe you dislaike Colymar and Leika, and you probably think that only the coward queen survived but in all cases you first think about your family, about the past sufferings, about the next sufferings, the incapacity of your tribe to start new big initiative (if your tribe's leader is dead) that's just my opinion, of course

their are two categories : - awakened beast (and half beasts) as "people" : ducks, baboons, manticores, minautors, griffins ? (I think), etc... the exception is the individual not able to speak - awakened beast among not-awakened beast: then they are the exception of their non sentient people. As you said, there is no need to have our world requested organs to speak in glorantha. Or you are planning to destroy ducks, baboons and others chimeras. So for me the point is anyone (sentient + mundane) is able to speak any language based on words. the big issue with the draconic language is that is considered as a verbal language (and it was in previous version as you "just had" to split your tongue to be able). However, rqg says that this language is not a verbal one. The verbal part seems to be 25% (the human limit) or about. You need other senses, draconic senses (magic ? other plans access ? smell ? aura ?...), to be able to "speak". What I like with this new definition is precisely the issue is no more a question of organ (the tongue). So that is, from my perspective, totally consistent with animals able to "speak" well personaly, not without something external to the human nature. Not a physical surgery, but a mystical transformation (maybe with surgery,for sure). these humans should not be "full humans" anymore

As I m not sure of the sense of your question, I would answer in two points : well easy in the sense of the cult(ure) would accept it in my opinion. Yes, for me, Orlanth has a lot of wives and lovers, and Ernalda has a lot of husbands and lovers (and Lodril is Lodril) so these gods would not have concern with this specific marriage. The "for ever promise" is one oath, but there are other possible oaths : "until we decide together to stop", "until it is clear we are not happy", "until there is no mutual trust". However, I'm not challenging the impact on the involved people in any divorce (if it is the question) : could be easy for the people or not depending on a lot of things, as on Earth.

in all case not a mistake because "it must be". It may be a mistake if your table, and you, need it to have fun. But the mistake may be to do it and to be bored by it (so the mistake or not depends on you, not on me or any other 😛 ) Personaly I don't. I talk about weather when : - the party moves to a new location (for sure you have to describe the weather when you enter in Prax the first time. - a new season is coming (for sure there is a lot of rain and snow when it is storm and darkness seasons in Sartar after a sunny summer) - the weather is important for the scenario - I want to give a lot of unuseful informations and among them the important one for the scenario. If you never talk about something, of course the first time you talk about it, the players will imediatly notice it and act (or think) accordingly. So the important one could be the weather, the hair color, the number of cows,... what you want

yep for me you have different marriage types: a) those with a defined duration (1 year etc) there is probably some ritual behind it (the earth festival, things like that) so this marriage has an impact on all the community, you must stay and be nice spouses. if not you will have reprisals (mundane by the people impacted by your choice, divine by the gods & spirits insulted by your choices) b) those political with all the pressure of the family (if not noble children ) and all the community (if noble children) cause this marriage provides alliance, wealth, etc.. c) those just chosen by you and your partner, without any consequences except on your couple and your potential children and followers. I see the c) type easy for orlanthi. Probably easy for Lodrili. But for the other fire/light gods... Probably it is not possible or very very hard to even have the possibility of c) with Yelm, at least in Dara Happa and other "civilized" countries. No idea with pure horse people. but that's the perspective of a definitly not yelmic specialist 😛 so I'm interested by the answers too (and even in Orlanthi, Merfolk, Malkioni, etc... cultures)

how many times have you met a player that remember an oath and says "my character forget it " ? 😛 your choice is a good choice for your table if everybody is happy with that. But there are other tables, and it is interesting to share different practices, and accept that other could have done the right choice for their table. That doesn't mean white (GM doesn't manage the oath at all, or GM tells them what they committed before the too late issue) or black (hey do you remember you promised that ? too late !). GM may give alerts (dreams, little curse then find a shaman or priest to understand why, things like that) the fun, for me, is to manage the first time (one or two years) the oath. Then if it is done correctly, no reason to repeat year after year, their is this ritual, then this one, then this one, that would be boring, for me. My game is more focused on social interactions, so it is more important to know what you committed. Meeting the ghost of a legendary king is something very relevant in my play. More than having a great shield. If the players remember they have a shield and use it against dragons, they should remember how they get this shield.

a snail starts with 85% in bureaucracy. they are sent by the temple to "help" bad customers of the knowledge temple (aka those who have not enough money or reputation) to find the requested information 😛

yes you are right I make a confusion between sentient and awakened. In fact the W&E rules disturb me, as there are some divine spells to transform the non sentient into sentient beast. The issue is.... I don't see any divine spells in the red book (so that sounds like there is no in glorantha) to do it (praxian is another story, for sure). that is a good question, I would say the maturity would follow the "natural" time (aka 1-2 year for a dog, etc...) but seems a little bit... weird, I agree

yes allied spirits in a beast body is not the same than a beast with its own "spirit"/"soul"/"intelligence"/"what you want" but, for me, an awakened beast is like any other sentient individual. Is a troll able to be initiate ? an elf ? a human ? a griffin ? What is the difference ? for me there is none 🙂 An alynx will face some difficulties to be initiate to Brother Dog or Telmor, but I don't see why an alynx will not be able to join Yinkin, Orlanth, or any cult friendly to Yinkin. Maybe urbanised temples will see it with some reluctance (and put some difficulties) of course the alynx (or the fish, or the horse, ...) should have good reason to join a cult, as any candidate, but why not ?.