How to play a pure sorcerer

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

HQG and Mythras did the flexibility of effect issue well, by making a new spell in the same ‘grimoire’ cheap. I was surprised and disappointed that this idea largely disappeared. It also disappointed me from a Gloranthan lore point of view, previously most discussion of sorcery in sources about the West had separated sorcery into schools or grimoires, and there wasn’t much evidence of this idea (indeed, it seemed a bit discouraged or obscured). The idea of sorcerers easily learning a few spells in such a conceptual/Runic cluster seems like a good one, I wish it was in RQG. It also gives the impression that RQG and HQG are somewhat in quite different Gloranthas. 

Anyway, that’s enough sorcery rant for now. I have plenty more for later though!

To be honest, they seem much the same to me outside of the required game system differences.

The spells Lhankor Mhy grants in RQ:G come from the same grimoire, and are mostly the same (Identify Otherworld Entity = Identify Demon, Logical Clarity = Dismiss Confusion, Logician = Logical Thinking, Reveal Rune = Identify Runic Power, Solace of the Logical Mind = Resist Godless Sorcery), with only one spell seeming to be lacking (Identify Spell seeming to be roughly similar to Analyze Magic)

Likewise, we know books and scrolls can teach spells (see the orange book described here) so the other grimoires would fit. And the whole "cheaper to make spells conceptually similar to ones in their grimoire" would presumably be the equivalent of "A spell conceptually related to a spell that the sorcerer already knows" in the spell creation section.)

The difference in how sorcery is treated between the two systems doesn't seem as notable as Spirit Magic, for example. Just things that work in one system wouldn't work in another. And despite being a big fan of HQ:G, I find the sorcery section in RQ:G enhances and clarifies the HQ one, rather than taking anything away or drastically changing it.

 

[davecake]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Since I wrote the sorcery rules in HQG and in RQG, it could well be that I think I got it wrong in HQG. 

Indeed. And I continue to think you were, well, more right. 

FWIW, I think the reasoning for flexibility of effect in sorcery is pretty much the same as for adding the flexibility of effect to Rune magic (via Rune Points rather than individual spells), only stronger - both more fun, and the minor but interesting spells (Wind Words was the example usually used) actually get used. 

I’m sure there is some reasoned position why you think RQG is a better approach - I just have no idea what it may be, as to me it seems a lot less fun, a lot harder to balance, and less close to the sources. 

[davecake]

8 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

To be honest, they seem much the same to me outside of the required game system differences.

The spells Lhankor Mhy grants in RQ:G come from the same grimoire, and are mostly the same (Identify Otherworld Entity = Identify Demon, Logical Clarity = Dismiss Confusion, Logician = Logical Thinking, Reveal Rune = Identify Runic Power, Solace of the Logical Mind = Resist Godless Sorcery), with only one spell seeming to be lacking (Identify Spell seeming to be roughly similar to Analyze Magic)

The difference is that in RQG, it is unlikely for a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer to have more than a couple of those at a level where they can cast more than 2-3 of those at a reliable, in fact the game rules don’t really support making that effort ever. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

Alternately, Petersen's default rules (sans Tekumel) are pretty solid, even if quirky. I... don't know that I'd use them for a Lhankoring. They rely pretty heavily on attuning to Malkioni saints for your magic otherwise things get awkward and complex quickly.

And that's the fundamental problem with these rules - modern Glorantha has no saints, only ascended masters, and those don't grant blessings or sorcerous cheats (as of our current knowledge). Sandy's rules will go pretty well with a RQ version of Ttrotsky's Book of Glorious Joy, but that relies on the monotheist cult with heroes model rather than on the current one.

Exactly how the ancestor worship with mighty summons of ancestral interlocutors like Yingar or Menena is supposed to work I don't know, yet, but apparently this even happened among only slightly variant denizens of Brithos around 4 or 5 S.T.,, according to Hrestol's Saga.

3 hours ago, Crel said:

(Basically just like how RQG has you attune to a Rune or Technique they attune to a Saint. Saccing POW to the saint lets you do stuff, but most importantly invoking Saint Malkion is how the sorcerer gets their Arts, and you either do or don't have them. Otherwise you can study to get the Arts and whoo-boy that adds math. It's way easier to just "have" Intensity than to know Intensity 76% and be able to manipulate eight levels of Intensity in your spells. The Malkioni model means the only mathy manipulation you really have to care about is from the spell itself. And then when you acquire multiple Arts, and use them all at once... 😐)

Are those systems really meant to mix? I didn't think so at the time, but then my game used the Jovanovic RQ4 AiG playtest rules.

If we are to have some consistency with HeroQuest Glorantha, then the Malkioni sorcerer would be encouraged to attune to an (immaterial?) Grimoire that really rests on a cloud server in (the sorcerous portion of?) the Otherworld, although the sorcerer will have a partial transcript of his in physical edition (in order to avoid having to meditate his long range way into an abstract matrix to re-acquaint himself with a spell).

[Austin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Are those systems really meant to mix? I didn't think so at the time, but then my game used the Jovanovic RQ4 AiG playtest rules.

Mmm... I'll just say that one of the versions of Sandy's Sorcery I found included it as a throwaway note within the text. It's not the intended usage of the rules, but makes it possible to learn sorcery without worshiping saints.

The really big Does Not Mix is Presence and the Art of Duration.

[Joerg]

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Since I wrote the sorcery rules in HQG and in RQG, it could well be that I think I got it wrong in HQG. 

In which case it would be informative how you now think HQG sorcery would have to be amended to make both games more aligned with one another. Just the basic concepts, not the gritty or verbose version, leave that to others if you have turned away from developing HQ further.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Indeed. And I continue to think you were, well, more right. 

The ease of players defining the world to their whim with the HQ rules probably is to blame for this extreme flexibility.

HQ1 had the sorcerer go on a symbol-quest of almost Tron-like abstraction to gain the use of a grimoire, or to extract a new spell from it. HQ2 has single- or few-rune-grimoires (never mind the ancillary ones in spells from Combine) and techniques, instead.

 

There are two somewhat demotivating issues with RQG sorcery - the nearly non-existant chance to succeed at a spell without adding multiples of the already long casting time to gain a somewhat decent chance at succeeding, and the need to spend all those extra magic points on derivative knowledge of runes or techniques.

Grimoires could step in with both problems - a proper attunement to the mother grimoire of your spell might increase basic casting chance significantly (although you might require access to a written description or magical diagram of your spell), and it might reduce the "inferred rune/technique" penalty on MP use somewhat.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

FWIW, I think the reasoning for flexibility of effect in sorcery is pretty much the same as for adding the flexibility of effect to Rune magic (via Rune Points rather than individual spells), only stronger - both more fun, and the minor but interesting spells (Wind Words was the example usually used) actually get used. 

RQG spells have the potential to cover every imaginable situations once you start writing your own (and have sufficiently crazy-huge pools of magic points at your hands).

I see one problem there that after a time, sorcery may become a hammer that makes everything else the equivalent of nails. The runic limitation of the deities forbids this for theists even with maxed out runepower pools and ready uses or spell-traded ones on the side. With mastery of 2 elements and 4 powers, all you need are some forms and Command to cast just about any spell

When it comes to paying eight-fold or worse MP cost, the Malkioni wizards officiating in Worship Invisible God may have those weekly or seasonal rites as a way to create an "ethical tapped MP" pool that might last until the next scheduled service of that rite.. Possibly with some degradation over time if that can be done without a pocket calculator or spreadsheet.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I’m sure there is some reasoned position why you think RQG is a better approach - I just have no idea what it may be, as to me it seems a lot less fun, a lot harder to balance, and less close to the sources. 

What sources are you talking about here, David? Revealed Mythologies and Middle Sea Empire? Other tidbits of Greg's original Malkioni writings?

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

When it comes to paying eight-fold or worse MP cost, the Malkioni wizards officiating in Worship Invisible God may have those weekly or seasonal rites as a way to create an "ethical tapped MP" pool that might last until the next scheduled service of that rite.. Possibly with some degradation over time if that can be done without a pocket calculator or spreadsheet.

And of course temple wyters would also be useful sources for those magic points.

(Assuming Malkioni communities work the same as non-Malkioni communities.)

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The difference is that in RQG, it is unlikely for a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer to have more than a couple of those at a level where they can cast more than 2-3 of those at a reliable, in fact the game rules don’t really support making that effort ever. 

Augment... 

It should be rare for the sorcerer to have to desperately get off that spell right now such that they don't have time to meditate, use practices, etc.

And, every successful cast is another skill check!  If you're a bullshitter philosopher and /or Lhankoring, you get occupational skill increases every season... just like most other skills.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

On 8/19/2019 at 7:44 PM, davecake said:

A divine magic user in a relatively major cult that has access to all common rune magic after a reasonable amount of play (say, 8-10 rune points) has a really pretty wide range of magic. A bunch of useful utility stuff (such as heal wound, spirit block) and a few cool specialty things, and can flexibly use their Rune Points to care it all. Sorcery gives you some interesting options basically at character creation, but essentially after character creation it is prohibitively expensive and impractical to raise a spell skill to the point where you can reliably cast it in play (rather than taking hours to days to push your casting chance up). In practice, the interesting possibilities of sorcery are illusory - you pick some good spells at character creation, and mostly stick with them. There is a good reason why the cultures that have master sorcerers are mostly immortal, it’s the only way to have a broad selection of spells under the rules! 

The Common Divine magic list is certainly useful... But I'd argue that sorcery is even moreso, especially since you can create your own spells. Make Logician into a ranged spell, and you've got something that's going to be used very regularly, and for a LOT of money! 

If you have Logician, next step is to do something similar for other skills (or categories)... And, obviously, Enhance X. 

 

Which brings me to a question (GM fiat)... Have all spells players could think of already been invented/created? Or are there some that can't be found anywhere? What about HQ - would anything a player can think of already be available to Lhankor Mhy, and thus could be taken as a,reward?

[styopa]

Fascinating discussion here everyone.

Particularly for sorcery, I also feel we're missing any mechanics for cooperative casting.  IIRC the lore is ample in referring to sorcerers (particularly God Learners) and lunar magicians working in concert, yet no iteration of the rules that I'm familiar with (I am entirely unfamiliar with HQ) has ever provided actual mechanics for it. (?)  Or?

Surely if we think shieldwalls, phalanx, and formation-fighting are commonly-enough employed that they're worth a full page of rules, the analogous magical techniques should also be available?

At least for the meta in my head, that's a big reason the Lunars generally beat Orlanthi: sort of the magical equivalent of legions vs swarms of Teutonii (yes, yes, I know, the whole "Orlanthi aren't European barbarians anymore" notwithstanding).

[Lordabdul]

My limited understanding of the Sorcery stuff is that it lets you play the Ars-Magica-like fantasy of the alechmical sorcerer who studies for a long time in his mysterious tower, experimenting with spells and components, asking their servants to go fetch esoteric ingredients, until they eventually come out and show immense displays of power. On that front, I think it's totally the point that characters using spirit/rune magic have it easier than sorcerers -- it's like comparing people who shop at Walmart/BestBuy with people who do DIY stuff.

The interesting thing is that, because sorcerers take a long time to prepare their stuff, Ars-Magica popularized the "troupe" gameplay style, so that you have something to do while your wizard is spending time in their lab. It might be trickier with RQG but that's probably why the authors encourage "seasonal" gameplay (with seasonal rolls for character improvement) as an alternative solution.

Anyway, so the point is to have a sorcerer that starts "slow" and then becomes more and more over powered (I guess it's kind of like D&D?). Plus, it looks to me like there's a whole bunch of augments you can use to make your sorcerer playable and useful. Pretty quickly, you'll be inscribing spell on a whole bunch of trinkets you carry around (many sorcerers carry a plate on their chest with a bunch of runes inscribed on them... do those typically contain their favourite spells? or is it just for show?). I haven't playtested the Sorcery rules yet, nor have I done the math, but it looks like that's the key to being a badass -- casting spells on the spot looks very unproductive but that seems by design to me. The only thing I would add are rules that let you "improve" an inscribed spell iteratively, so that you can build up its strength over the years and, 5 years later, end up with something more powerful than you could cast in one go. I'm not sure if that would break everything though?

I'm also wondering about "secondary runes" and "true names"? It seems like sorcery (according to GtG) gets more effective when you're using more "specific" things in the spell casting. So for instance, using the true name of something/someone you want to summon would grant you bonuses (it seems like that's what Malkioni did at some point to summon some water elementals against... err... the Waertagi I think? Can't find it right now[1]). Also, there's a bunch of runes that existed in previous editions of RQ that are not listed in RQG -- assuming they haven't been completely eliminated, I'm wondering if a future sourcebook on sorcery will reintroduce those runes as "more specific" runes that are more limited in use-cases, but offer you, say, double the intensity for your spells. If you learn such a secondary rune, use a "true name", add some affinity components, wait for the right season, prepare your lab, etc.... well... you might be able to inscribe a pretty fucking awesome spell in your hat!

[1] edit: found it, GtG p 48... it's not "true names" but "identification", for instance through "genealogy" like "runic precedents".

Edited August 20, 2019 by lordabdul

[SDLeary]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

Ars Magica has a fairly pure system, as it has the advantage that it could create its equivalent of ‘runes’ and techniques just for the rules. It has 5 verbs and 10 nouns, and most things clearly fit into one combination (and making it a little more complex in those cases is fine). I once tried, long ago, to do this for RQ3 sorcery, and it wasn’t unworkable, though some things had to be forced a little. RQG trues harder to make it adhere to the runes, and also mixes in techniques, and so it is all a bit conceptually incoherent. 

translating from the Latin, Ars Magica has Create, Destroy, Change, Control, Perceive, and Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Perceptions, Mind, Flesh, Animal, Plant, Magic. RQG sort of sticks together a system of Runes not designed for this purpose with a set of techniques that sort of overlaps, sometimes doesn’t, and leaves us in a confusion as to whether Powers or techniques are the ‘verb’ in any given spell, and also such questions as do you Summon a Rune or Dispel its opposite to get a given effect. 

Silly question. Would it work if you simply de-coupled the runes from one another? Why does sorcery have to maintain the oppositions? 

Now I will admit that I haven't reached the Sorcery section yet, so haven't read in detail the "theory" on it. It seems to me there was an empire that spanned the West, that probably did something similar to achieve their effects.

SDLeary

[Lordabdul]

23 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Silly question. Would it work if you simply de-coupled the runes from one another? Why does sorcery have to maintain the oppositions?

What do you mean? Sorcerers can learn both "sides" of opposed runes. If you only know one side, you can still cast spells using the opposed runes at double the magic cost.

[SDLeary]

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

What do you mean? Sorcerers can learn both "sides" of opposed runes. If you only know one side, you can still cast spells using the opposed runes at double the magic cost.

Perhaps? I'm simply postulating that the links that a theist or animist sees might not exist in the way sorcery is performed. Personally, I think that sorcery might be conceptualized as something akin to the DeepMagic rules from the Advanced Sorcery supplement for MagicWorld, but with a "ring" for each type of Rune. 

I'm out and about, so don't have things here, so can't really describe how it would work at the moment.

SDLeary

[styopa]

FWIW early on I'd toyed with building a compendium of unique sorcery spells.  Using this matrix

	Elements:			Powers			Forms			Condition
0	No Element		0	No Power		0	No Form		0	No Condition
1	Darkness		1	Harmony		1	Beast		1	Mastery
2	Water		2	Disorder		2	Man		2	Magic
3	Earth		3	Stasis		3	Plant		3	Infinity
4	Air		4	Movement		4	Dragonewt		4	Luck
5	Fire/Sky		5	Truth		5	Spirit		5	Fate
6	Moon		6	Illusion		6	Chaos
			7	Life
			8	Death

I'd thrown together the master list into which each spell could be dropped; so a spell that's Water+Stasis+(no form)+Fate = item 2305

This is assuming of course that you could only use at most one (each) of Element + Power + Form + Condition.

The result is 2646 combinations, which should be enough for any College of Magic.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16IRfI7a8ZDoThviy9HxaAZWE8K-Bt-AIMU58r8I03rs/edit?usp=sharing 

[Lordabdul]

Nice -- although I was a bit confused at first because you called it "Life" instead of "Fertility" (which is the term RQG uses). Also you have some "Conditions" instead of RQG's techniques? (Command, Combine, Separate, Summon, Dispel, Tap). Was this for a previous version of RQ maybe?

2 hours ago, styopa said:

This is assuming of course that you could only use at most one (each) of Element + Power + Form + Condition.

I think that assumption will very quickly be proven false. Take the very first sorcery spell in RQG for instance: "Accelerate Healing" (Fertility, Command). I'm pretty sure we can come up with at least a couple other spells that would have the same runes as their base.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Nice -- although I was a bit confused at first because you called it "Life" instead of "Fertility" (which is the term RQG uses). Also you have some "Conditions" instead of RQG's techniques? (Command, Combine, Separate, Summon, Dispel, Tap). Was this for a previous version of RQ maybe?

I think that assumption will very quickly be proven false. Take the very first sorcery spell in RQG for instance: "Accelerate Healing" (Fertility, Command). I'm pretty sure we can come up with at least a couple other spells that would have the same runes as their base.

Oh no question, this just shows the variety available under pretty simplistic constraints.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Nice -- although I was a bit confused at first because you called it "Life" instead of "Fertility" (which is the term RQG uses). Also you have some "Conditions" instead of RQG's techniques? (Command, Combine, Separate, Summon, Dispel, Tap). Was this for a previous version of RQ maybe?

I think that assumption will very quickly be proven false. Take the very first sorcery spell in RQG for instance: "Accelerate Healing" (Fertility, Command). I'm pretty sure we can come up with at least a couple other spells that would have the same runes as their base.

Moonfire... 2 elements.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

... Also you have some "Conditions" instead of RQG's techniques? ...

Every column is a sort of Rune.  Those are "Condition Runes"

[Lordabdul]

Sure but what I meant was:

1) The Condition Runes are not mentioned in the RQG Sorcery rules so I'm not sure they ever apply? Isn't it implied that you're just using the Magic rune under the hood and that's it?

2) Even if the Condition Runes were used, wouldn't you need an extra column for the Techniques? "Command Plant Death" is different from "Summon Plant Death" for instance.

[styopa]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Sure but what I meant was:

1) The Condition Runes are not mentioned in the RQG Sorcery rules so I'm not sure they ever apply? Isn't it implied that you're just using the Magic rune under the hood and that's it?

2) Even if the Condition Runes were used, wouldn't you need an extra column for the Techniques? "Command Plant Death" is different from "Summon Plant Death" for instance.

This was put together before the RQG sorcery rules were even clear - so it doesn't have techniques which weren't in RQ3 

An "RQG" version would absolutely need techniques, either as another column or (IMO) more likely as operators between the runes like math symbols, which would likely boost the possible combinations to crazy numbers.  Because you could then have just for rune combination 235 (Water,Stasis,(no form),Fate) 2+3+5, 2x3-5, etc.

Something like:

• Summon: *
• Dispel: /
• Combine: +
• Separate: -
• Command: ^
• Tap: v

Damn, then you could even go down dizzying algebraic rabbit holes like order-of-operations for magical techniques?  Just as 2+3*5 is 17 and not 25, maybe in magical parlance "everyone knows" SUMMON/DISPEL has to happen before COMBINE/SEPARATE, duh....maybe that's what we mean is actually happening when we miss a casting roll.

Edited August 21, 2019 by styopa

[Lordabdul]

Haha yeah that's a nice idea, but, at least in RQG, I don't think the order matters, and techniques seem to always be listed last in the runes list. But that's something to keep in mind for potential house rules....

[davecake]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:09 PM, Shiningbrow said:

The Common Divine magic list is certainly useful... But I'd argue that sorcery is even moreso, especially since you can create your own spells.

Common Divine Magic is a great big pile of useful divine magic, much of it both castable (instantly) in combat and of great tactical utility in combat, and practical utility out of it. To create a set of a dozen useful combat spells, and then learn each one to a point where it can reliably be cast in combat (taking only a couple of rounds, still far off ‘instant’) is the work of decades at least, probably a lifetime, just to get to where most Divine casters *start*

Sorcery in RQG is flexible from the point of view of an entire culture or nation - but very inflexible from the point of view of any individual, especially PCs. 

On 8/20/2019 at 9:56 PM, Shiningbrow said:

It should be rare for the sorcerer to have to desperately get off that spell right now such that they don't have time to meditate, use practices, etc.

You obviously play a quite different style of game to me, one in which PCs very seldom get into situations such as combat or other situations requiring some sort of urgent response.

 

On 8/20/2019 at 8:16 PM, Joerg said:

What sources are you talking about here, David? Revealed Mythologies and Middle Sea Empire? Other tidbits of Greg's original Malkioni writings?

RM, MSE, and material on Glorantha.com for the most part, plus material in the Guide. I prefer not to go back to the original Malkioni writings if they contradict later material, and in any case I have virtually no access to them.

i would add that I have significant knowledge of several of the real world magical traditions that have been mentioned as inspiration sources for sorcery. A large body of organised common theory (sets of correspondences, names, simile, etc) that need to be learnt, but from which new effects might be then extrapolated, is a feature of most of them. The idea that skill might largely transfer from one magical effect to another seems right from that point of view too. 

On 8/20/2019 at 7:45 PM, Crel said:

The really big Does Not Mix is Presence and the Art of Duration.

Yes, Presence was literally designed more or less as a fix for the perceived problems of exponential Duration, they should not coexist in the one rule system really. 

[g33k]

14 hours ago, styopa said:

...

Damn, then you could even go down dizzying algebraic rabbit holes like order-of-operations for magical techniques?  Just as 2+3*5 is 17 and not 25, maybe in magical parlance "everyone knows" SUMMON/DISPEL has to happen before COMBINE/SEPARATE, duh....maybe that's what we mean is actually happening when we miss a casting roll.

This sounds a touch abstruse/arcane, and frankly just a bit too God-Learner-ish.    🤫

In other words, just about perfect for Gloranthan sorcery...    ☺️

Keep us apprised of any progress you make, please!  And if you decide you want playtesters for these HR's... do speak up!    😉

[davecake]

On 8/21/2019 at 12:14 AM, styopa said:

Surely if we think shieldwalls, phalanx, and formation-fighting are commonly-enough employed that they're worth a full page of rules, the analogous magical techniques should also be available?

FWIW, I think the most well used cooperative magic in war time is roughly the same for sorcerers as it is for other magicians - it is Dragon Pass (the board game) style regimental magic that is (as described in the Glorantha Sourcebook) based around a magical entity that is a type of wyter. 

She Who Strikes From Afar in the Glorantha Bestiary gives you an example of how this functions for the Lunars, but something similar could be easily imagined for sorcerers (or other traditions), my feeling is that such spirits can often be used by groups of sorcerers for something like a mass Multispell. 

I also think it is no coincidence that this form of magic seems to be best practiced by groups containing Illuminates (of whatever variety), but that’s a significant digression. Essentially, I think Illumination (which already means you’ve had an experience of ego transcendence) helps you tolerate becoming (temporarily) part of a group mind without going crazy.