Seseine and Uleria

[Manu]

Are there myth about Seseine and Uleria?

[Runeblogger]

There should be one! :-) So if no one knows any, we could make one up.

For instance, Seseine could be one of Uleria's daughters who didn't want to learn her mother's lessons. She focused on getting more power through lust and followed the Unholy Trio or was perhaps corrupted by them, or specifically by Ragnaglar.

A myth could explain for example how Uleria tries to teach her the value of love, but her daughter fails to learn anything after each and every lesson, and the goes on to become more and more powerful through the use of carnal desire until she decides to abandon and betray her mother.

[MasterGollum]

Seseine is the Pamaltelan goddess of seduction. She is connected with chaos. She fought against Pamalt's Necklace in the Demon Period. In the same confrontation Pamalt confronted Gark, Krajalk and Pocharngo. She can take any form, and seeks to corrupt the Right Footpath. Her way is contrasted with the right uses of pleasure, desire, and sexuality. In Laskal she is worshiped through Echeklihos. (Revealed Mythologies)

Despite she has a demigoddess daughter in Heortland, the Guide also point her more in Pamaltela. If you are not running a Fonritian campaign, maybe you find more suitable Lemure. She is exactly the same, but she is the source of passions. Her cult is described in Lords of Terror, and that book has the subtitle "The Cults of Dorastor".  So Lemure maybe is a more suitable choice for a Genertela campaign. As far as I know none of them has connections with Uleria.

Vovisibor was created by the Five Evil Ones, some powerful shamans who killed Kendamalar (another way to explain the dead of the Sun). Vovisibor killed them as first action. Maybe one of the Five Evil Ones was a woman and Seseine was born from her raped broken dead body. The newborn goddess started to corrupt Artmali and Agimori spreading out the chaos in the domains of Pamalt.

[Joerg]

One hint about the origin of Seseine could be the Guide p.566, which names Seseine the sister of Janfusu, a grandson of Serelazam (one of the doom currents, sibling of Sshorg, child of Togaro according to Missing Lands, and parent of Dinisso, who in turn parented Maslo, and (with Dashomo) Marthino). It might be possible that she has a water origin, although her runes of Fertility and Illusion don't show anything like that (Illusion might be shared with the Niiads, but those are the descendants of Heler and Triolina, ultimately Daliath and Framanthe). Since Marthino also is a child of Dashomo (i.e. there is a current from both Dashomo and Dinisso feeding Marthino), Seseine might be a child of Dashomo rather than Dinisso. Dashomo is fed by the Kereneth Sea currents, from the west.

The bodies of the seas (like Togaro, Kereneth) are children of Framanthe and Sramak, and don't show up in the nice illustrated genealogy of the sea gods in the Sourcebook.

The city of Janfusu lies on Dsunguya Island, facing the Inland Sea of Kareeshtu. It is suspiciously far away from the Serelazam doom current, which enters Magasta's Pool from the Northeast. Serelazam was the main Sea foe of Thinobutu, but neither Thinokans nor Kumankans are exactly close to Janfusu.

I am thus mildly baffled how a grandchild of Serelazam has business founding a city on the Inland sea of Fonrit, and how it was a sibling of Seseine.

Sea deity parentage is complicated. Manthi and Togaro are named as parents of Sshorg, but apart from Togaro we have no other confirmed parent for Serelazam.

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

I'm just impressed she went to Dorastor, had a kid with Ralzakark, and used her to seduce the Mask Argenteus... Chaos must be running long-term plans and coordinating their teams via Slack for her to charter a boat from Pamaltela while the Nargan Desert Project is still running.

[scott-martin]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm just impressed she went to Dorastor, had a kid with Ralzakark, and used her to seduce the Mask Argenteus... Chaos must be running long-term plans and coordinating their teams via Slack for her to charter a boat from Pamaltela while the Nargan Desert Project is still running.

Funny you should say that. @Joerg is there anything you'd like to say here?

I always thought succubi were busted passion spirits and that passion spirits themselves are technically classed with the Tilntae so Seseine and her people would be fallen daughtersons of Uleria. I don't know if anyone bothers to mythify this . . . people who are extremely into succubus magic either (a) see no distinction between what they do and healthy eroto lucidity so it's all Uleria or (b) aren't into narrative anyway so their genealogy of sentiment isn't preserved.

Seseine and Ompalam, on the other hand, may not like each other. They work together but it's not like they're friends. One thing that's interesting about the Necklace is how many of the relationships are people cheating on their official partners. That may be how Seseine gets in.

[Qizilbashwoman]

26 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

That may be how Seseine gets in.

i'm not sure what you are driving at in your reply, but certainly Ralzakark doesn't have an official partner, and if you mean the Red Emperor, he doesn't either. In fact, Argenteus had a boatload of children by a boatload of women.

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i'm not sure what you are driving at in your reply, but certainly Ralzakark doesn't have an official partner, and if you mean the Red Emperor, he doesn't either. In fact, Argenteus had a boatload of children by a boatload of women.

Sorry, Pamalt's necklace.

[jajagappa]

47 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm just impressed she went to Dorastor, had a kid with Ralzakark, and used her to seduce the Mask Argenteus... Chaos must be running long-term plans and coordinating their teams via Slack for her to charter a boat from Pamaltela while the Nargan Desert Project is still running.

She's the goddess of Seduction and Temptation. Despite Pamaltelan myths and associations, clearly these are forces that are known universally in the world. If she's embodied an avatar in Dorastor, that should not be unexpected or surprising, and doesn't require her, as a goddess, to physically go from one place to the other.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

She's the goddess of Seduction and Temptation. Despite Pamaltelan myths and associations, clearly these are forces that are known universally in the world. If she's embodied an avatar in Dorastor, that should not be unexpected or surprising, and doesn't require her, as a goddess, to physically go from one place to the other.

okay first, that's fair, I just liked the idea of Seseine in a wide-brimmed straw hat lounging on a boat for months using a Chaos blackberry.

two, doesn't the Great Compromise mean that "avatars" here are really just moments of inspiration? a blessed womb or something. Dayzatar empowering Palangio the Iron Vrok at the Battle of Night and Day almost broke the world, and all He did was give him a portion of His power. Ralzakark is a Hero, not a deity, although I don't know that he's THE Chaos rune Hero.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I just liked the idea of Seseine in a wide-brimmed straw hat lounging on a boat for months using a Chaos blackberry.

I can definitely picture her Vadeli followers doing so, all the while contemplating the wondrous temptations they can inflict upon residents in whichever port city they arrive in.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

doesn't the Great Compromise mean that "avatars" here are really just moments of inspiration? a blessed womb or something.

Consider the Feathered Horse Queens - all "avatars" of Sorana Tor, aka Kero Fin.  (And there are earlier incarnations/avatars of her as when Arim the Pauper met Sorana Tor.)

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I can definitely picture her Vadeli followers doing so,

I was just rereading Arcane Lore and laughed because there's a discussion of the theoretical framework at the beginning of metaphysics and creation ideas: first you exist as a culture, then you come into conflict with outsiders, then you resolve that conflict ("defeat a foe"), and this is how the flawed world came to be.

The first example given is Vadel, and because it's an old text the sorcerers tradition of the West is referred to as "the Liturgical tradition", and the text says, 

Quote

Thus for instance, Vadel was a brilliant sub-creator of the Liturgical tradition. He applied his sorcery so well he discovered things thoughts, feelings, and powers that he could not have imagined. Thus, when the first spirits surrounded Vadel he didn't even have a way to tell what they were, and so he went more than half-mad from it.

and by god I could not but think of Vadel as a modern Anglican archbishop in bright purple and snorted milk out of my nose

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Funny you should say that. @Joerg is there anything you'd like to say here?

Thou shalt not summon the Joerg?

This probably was a union made in Godtime. The child of a broo not a broo?

That takes some belief... but then, it is possible that Ralzakark served as the mother rather than as the father.

I mean, why not? Her description in the guide names her parents, but not their role in her birth, and if any force in Glorantha is unpredictable, it should be Chaos.

So Ralzakark goes off on a quest to give birth to an agent that would spread his thoughts and interests outside of Dorastor, and rather than finding Seseine a willing mother, he gets impregnated himself. Luckily there are enough of him to cover for him during the pregnancy.

 

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I always thought succubi were busted passion spirits and that passion spirits themselves are technically classed with the Tilntae so Seseine and her people would be fallen daughtersons of Uleria.

Passion is their weapon, but their nature is hunger.

 

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Seseine and Ompalam, on the other hand, may not like each other.

Ompalam enslaves them all. Liking him isn't on the table. Fearing and obeying him is all that is required.

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

They work together but it's not like they're friends. One thing that's interesting about the Necklace is how many of the relationships are people cheating on their official partners. That may be how Seseine gets in.

Seseine was already present among the Artmali deities of Chaos - she is one of the forces of corruption that Ompalam needed to gather up in his parody of Pamalt's Necklace.

That's where her possible sea god origin makes sense. The Artmali are descendants of Lorion, the Celestial River. Seseine may have been kin that fell prey to the very powers she now embraces. Niiads have Illusion powers and inherit Fertility from Triolina. Seseine may have started from there.

Who corrupted her? There are always the Vadeli.

[scott-martin]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Thou shalt not summon the Joerg?

Do not call up that which thou canst not put down. I guess I blew it.

The Ralzakark material fails to completely conceal a very fluid sense of sexuality, given the nominal genders of the creature's spawn and their projected ritual roles. After all, a unicorn would have been involved at some point as "mother." The creature might also have impregnated and given birth to itself through a heroquest that we might consider a grotesque failure.

"Their nature is hunger." I like that. Fertility turned sideways. All the nymph nations might well have Fertility, from the tilntae to the likitae and even the triolinae. Strikes me suddenly that Uleria is a blue goddess for a blue planet!

As for Seseine's obedience to Ompalam, I remain unconvinced until I see it.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

Do not call up that which thou canst not put down. I guess I blew it.

Writing such phrasing right next to speculations on broo reproduction might lead to ... wilful misinterpretation, let's say.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

The Ralzakark material fails to completely conceal a very fluid sense of sexuality, given the nominal genders of the creature's spawn and their projected ritual roles. After all, a unicorn would have been involved at some point as "mother."

In a biological sense, an argument could be made that all "male" broo really are females, and that their member really is an ovipositor that injects an organism that will take on random bits of its host organism for its appearance and powers. "Female btoos" would be something else, probably the (now defunct) drones of that species.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

The creature might also have impregnated and given birth to itself through a heroquest that we might consider a grotesque failure.

There is a chance that Ralzakark was born as a unicorn but ended up as a broo through a history of rapes, too.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"Their nature is hunger." I like that. Fertility turned sideways.

That, or the usual underworld connection which is strong for many a Chaos creature, too.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

All the nymph nations might well have Fertility, from the tilntae to the likitae and even the triolinae. Strikes me suddenly that Uleria is a blue goddess for a blue planet!

As Emilla, she is ancestress of the Zaranistangi.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

As for Seseine's obedience to Ompalam, I remain unconvinced until I see it.

Don't trust what you see. Seseine's third rune is Illusion.

[Qizilbashwoman]

By the by, the entity in question is Send Valu:

Quote

the demigod daughter of Seseine the Tempter and Ralzakark, two truly awful entities. Yet she claims to do no evil or even bad deeds. Send Valu is a voluptuous woman, redolent of pleasurable powers, and surrounded by a household of similar, but weaker, demigods. She lives in the Lunar Heartland, where her numerous palaces are nests of decadence. Send Valu is a friend of Mask Argenteus, who often attends her debauched parties.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[davecake]

13 hours ago, MasterGollum said:

In Laskal she is worshiped through Echeklihos. (Revealed Mythologies)

Fonrit rather than Laskal, she is one of the Glorious Ones. 

I don’t think Echeklihos and Seseine are the same entity (and Echeklikos is supposed to also have ties to Nyanka, whose sexuality is much more innocent and wholesome), but the two deities are closely associated in practice if not so much mythologically. 

[davecake]

I think the water association is interesting to speculate about - the Doraddi goddess most associated with sex and sensuality is Nyanka, who besides being a water deity primarily, also have humanity the ability to reproduce by giving the Agi water to drink, and is referenced as a lover in myth.

I think she is socially sometimes a bit of a feminine counterpart to Vangono for the Doraddi, as a deity that is beneficial, but a bit troublesome in that she appeals to younger people wanting some individual agency and fame (in her case as a lover or beauty). 

Which makes a water connection to Seseine boosting the idea that (as Echeklikos shows) the Doraddi might consider Seseine a perversion of Nyanka’s natural sexuality/sensuality. 

(Of course the main sexual myth of the Doraddi is the union of Cronisper and Yanmorla, but that is more of a primal sexuality of all of nature thing)

i do not think Seseine is subservient to Ompalam (though I’m sure the Ompalam priests might claim so). I think a large part of her appeal in Fonrit is stories of slaves seducing their masters (or other powerful benefactors), and so she offers a (possibly illusory, of course) hope for slaves. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Who corrupted her? There are always the Vadeli.

Always a safe bet in Pamaltela. 

Yes, I think Pamaltela naturally comes by the power of Love due to Artmali connections to Uleria, the Tilntae are either another factor or a consequence, etc. And the Vadeli approach this as a source of power they can turn to their own ends/corrupt, through perverse sexual rituals that create succubi, which they use as weapons against the Artmali, empowering Seseine in the process. 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

by god I could not but think of Vadel as a modern Anglican archbishop in bright purple and snorted milk out of my nose

The modern (or at least, pre-Oenriko rocks) Vadeli a bit like US televangelists, publically claiming that they representative the power of God so you should give them wealth and power, in private often committing all the sins they condemn. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I think the water association is interesting to speculate about - the Doraddi goddess most associated with sex and sensuality is Nyanka, who besides being a water deity primarily, also have humanity the ability to reproduce by giving the Agi water to drink, and is referenced as a lover in myth.

Very good, this covers the standard Pamalt/Doraddi angle. However, Seseine's importance predates the arrival of (doraddic) agimori in the region - most of the Vadeli-Agimori interaction seems to have been in Tarien. Pamalt's Agimori push to the north, in pursuit of Vovisibor, happened east of the Tarmo and apparently didn't produce surviving settlements beyond Banamba (unless you count the Men-and-a-Half of Prax and - tentatively - the Teleosans who are at least as likely to be racial agimori because of Thinobutan ancestry).

That's why I am interested in Sea Tribe ancestry, as that is a link to the Artmali.

I wonder how a worshiper of Engizi would be received by the Artmali (former or newly freed).

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I think she is socially sometimes a bit of a feminine counterpart to Vangono for the Doraddi, as a deity that is beneficial, but a bit troublesome in that she appeals to younger people wanting some individual agency and fame (in her case as a lover or beauty). 

Which makes a water connection to Seseine boosting the idea that (as Echeklikos shows) the Doraddi might consider Seseine a perversion of Nyanka’s natural sexuality/sensuality. 

One reason why Seseine has a hard time among the Orlanthi is that Eurmal is the local seducer (something Bolongo apparently never got around to). Even the main god of the Orlanhti has a seducer side, as does his pet half brother, so sensuality alone doesn't work that well.

It takes a repressive society to make her shine, but with Oria displaying just about everything in plain sight that Seseine might artfully hide, not even the mainstream Pelorians are that easy targets for her corruption.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

(Of course the main sexual myth of the Doraddi is the union of Cronisper and Yanmorla, but that is more of a primal sexuality of all of nature thing)

Sky and Earth, Aether and Gata.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

i do not think Seseine is subservient to Ompalam (though I’m sure the Ompalam priests might claim so). I think a large part of her appeal in Fonrit is stories of slaves seducing their masters (or other powerful benefactors), and so she offers a (possibly illusory, of course) hope for slaves. 

This may already have been her role in the Artmali interactions with the Vadeli (who know the art of seduction themselves, though).

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Yes, I think Pamaltela naturally comes by the power of Love due to Artmali connections to Uleria,

Which is? The Zaranistangi claim the blue planet Mastakos as the body of their ancestress, but the Veldara-descended Artmali are cousins at best. Neither Artmali nor Zaranistangi have much of an ancestral claim to Tolat other than as the (at times hostile) twin to their blue moon goddess.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

the Tilntae are either another factor or a consequence, etc. And the Vadeli approach this as a source of power they can turn to their own ends/corrupt, through perverse sexual rituals that create succubi, which they use as weapons against the Artmali, empowering Seseine in the process. 

A tactic adopted by the Artmali and sent right back to their foes (which may have been Pamalt's counterstrike force, their Vadeli oppressors, or the Thinobutan refugee nations just for being there).

(While enumerating the foes of the Artmali, it occured to me that neither Doraddic/Tishamtan Agimori, Artmali nor Vadeli appear to have had any Godtime contact with the Slarges. When and where from did they show up?)

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The modern (or at least, pre-Oenriko rocks) Vadeli a bit like US televangelists, publically claiming that they representative the power of God so you should give them wealth and power, in private often committing all the sins they condemn. 

Or the Vadeli flaunted their uninhibited ways as their proof of superiority. They basically created an out-of-context encounter with the coastal populations of Kumanku, Umathela and Fonrit, and uninhibited depravity may have been one of their methods to keep their new subjects from ever doubting them.

[MasterGollum]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Fonrit rather than Laskal, she is one of the Glorious Ones.

To be more precises the Gargandites I think we can consider Laskal and Fonrit geographical locations rather than political ones, and, if I'm not wrong, both regions has been under their control.

[Julian Lord]

Seseine is this or that, but in my experience, honest Uleria stories are a total minefield and very difficult to get done right.

Then even when done right, they tend to be overtly disturbing and destructive.

It is easy to say that Uleria is the only living member of the Celestial Court -- but the consequences from that fact are massively irrational.

I *think* I'm the only person ever to have seriously attempted a full long-form and formally accurate Uleria cult write-up -- though maybe Greg did too, once ? -- but once you reach any degree of meaningful insight into Uleria, such a write-up stops being possible.

Closest I ever got was a text that Greg actively hated, The Glorious ReAscent of Dayzatar's Toe, which is in an issue of the old fanzine Tradetalk -- but writing it led me to understand that any prospect of a Uleria write-up was a bottomless well of, well, everything.

I do remain very impressed that Greg still managed to write a perfectly good Eurmal cult text.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither Artmali nor Zaranistangi have much of an ancestral claim to Tolat other than as the (at times hostile) twin to their blue moon goddess.

The Zaranistangi were fervent Tolat cultists, though!

Artmal aided Tolat against Umath and was given his Red Sword, which was used by Artmali kings for a time. It ended up with with the Zaranistangi when one of their leaders, Zemendarn, saved the life of an Artmali king. They renamed it "Point of the Leaper".

The Zaranistangi ended up 

When Sshorg attacked, Dengbalu, king of the Zaranistangi, and his neighbors in Trowjang and Teshnos, became devotees of Tolat in exchange for His help and built a temple with the sword in it. This is the origin of the Tolat temple in Melib.

Later, the God Learners learned of a Seshnegi hero wielding an impossible sword against them.. 

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

However, Seseine's importance predates the arrival of (doraddic) agimori in the region -

But does not pre-date the Doraddi. I don’t think Seseine was a cult invented/discovered in Fonrit, I think if anywhere the cult originates with the Vadeli in Oabil, or when the Vadeli encounter the Artmali. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sky and Earth, Aether and Gata.

Yeah, but the Doraddi sexualise that WAY more. Their ritual magic is often orgies. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

This may already have been her role in the Artmali interactions with the Vadeli (who know the art of seduction themselves, though).

Seseine isn’t about seduction because you sexually desire the person and want to make that desire mutual. That is normal and healthy. Seseine is about using desire to manipulate for selfish reasons, about treating others as pawns and toys, which is corrupt and creepy and therefore. Seseine is seduction without caring about the one seduced. 

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

A tactic adopted by the Artmali and sent right back to their foes

(But yes, Afidisa is a beauty and very desirable)

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

While enumerating the foes of the Artmali, it occured to me that neither Doraddic/Tishamtan Agimori, Artmali nor Vadeli appear to have had any Godtime contact with the Slarges. When and where from did they show up?)

No, the Vadeli have contact with the slarges, just the very negative contact of the Slarges destroying Oabil.

But we don’t really know much about what happens to them between their creation in the Holden Age and their attack on Oabil though. We know there are stories of ugly wars between the slarges and the Doradfi of Tarien,, but we don’t know when. 

I think there is a story about how the Golden Age pelmre became the slarges with their weird two stage reproduction, but what that is, no one but the slarges are telling. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, MasterGollum said:

To be more precises the Gargandites I think we can consider Laskal and Fonrit geographical locations rather than political ones, and, if I'm not wrong, both regions has been under their control.

When Garangordos and friends leave Laskal, they are not yet the Glorious Ones, but only after heroquesting in Fonrit. I don’t think they ever conquered Laskal.

Neither are politically defined, both contain multiple polities.