Favorite weird factoid or detail from Glorantha

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

all i know is it was patrilineally-transmitted White Deerism. Wouldn't it be a kind of hsunchen? Isn't hsunchen a term for people who still maintain a lack of beast division from ancient days?

It's tricky. At the start of my career discussing Glorantha I asked Sandy Petersen (aim high) whether the Animal Nomads weren't just either Storm People (after all, descendants of the Storm Bull after his Downland migration) or alternatively a form of Hsunchen. I was told that neither was the case, although I reserve some potential for disagreement on both counts. Apparently the Animal Nomad two-legs intellect was on a level of the minotaurs prior to Waha's Covenant. But then, non-Orlanthi have made similar observations on Hill Barbarians (at least prior to wide-spread Ernalda worship).

Under the old Three Separate Worlds dogma, Hsunchen were strictly animists. Spirit traditions are ok, worship of deities is a deal breaker.

And under this dogma, the Heortling Deer was a divine animal, just like Yinkin had been forced to choose between his parents' orientations, and he had thrown in on his brother's theism, causing additional enmity with the Bad Dogs and other Hykimi spirits. Another such "definitely not Hsunchen" animal (despite the myth of shape-changing from human to beast) is the Purendi or white-tail deer of Orogeria and Kenstrata.

 

I take the deer people to be descendants of Tara/Velhara, and thereby another group of maternal kin to Orlanth.

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I know people like to be really specific about it meaning something now ("a descendant of the Mikyh-Hykim twins who lives in the wild etc.") but before the Dawn we're still dealing with mythic things.

The Greater Darkness was an era corrupted by Chaos, and I find the RQ2 version of the bearwalker/boarwalker/tigerwalker shapeshifter with <a slight touch of Chaos / a stronger feature of creative energy than others have> quite fitting for a survival sin. When in beast form, apparently it isn't cannibalism (compare the relief expressed by Orogeria and Kenstrata upon the Purendi relevation in Entekosiad). 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I guess it's also worth mentioning that the term "Hsunchen" is a Second Age attempt by the God Learners to effectively categorize all the animal-totem/shape-changers they observed around their empire. If I remember correctly, it mighy even be a loanword from Kralorela, which in itself has done the mistake of classifying Wind Children as "Hsunchen" (the Guide goes out of its way to say they aren't), so it's not like the Westerners would've been immune to this sort of muckup themselves.

Given the adoption of a foreign term, it's likely that the Westerners did not have an overarching umbrella term for animal totem people, perhaps previously dealing with them mostly on a case-by-case basis. However, the term "Hykimi" could be said to carry at least some of the same ideas, although its use by a confederation in the First Age might have made it impossible for the Westerners to dissasociate the term from the group defeated by Talor. Who knows.

Basically, I agree that it's a bit more muddled than it's necessarily made out to be, both for mythical and historical reasons.

[Akhôrahil]

Dwarves use a base eight numbering system.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dwarves use a base eight numbering system.

Why? Do they have 4 fingers?

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Why? Do they have 4 fingers?

I have four fingers. Did you mean three fingers? And the answer is "depends on the breed, probably, and whether they've been sleeping near enlo"

Also, base-8 systems have been recorded in natural IRL human languages.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Ian Absentia]

6 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, base-8 systems have been recorded in natural IRL human languages.

And in several cartoon animal and alien languages.

!i!

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And in several cartoon animal and alien languages.

Klingon best for being Ternary (Base-3)

And of course, we have Duodecimal from Sumerian: 12 hours, 60 minutes, and so forth

Edited October 1, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I have four fingers. Did you mean three fingers? And the answer is "depends on the breed, probably, and whether they've been sleeping near enlo"

Also, base-8 systems have been recorded in natural IRL human languages.

Ugh, I hate the whole "but the thumb is not a finger" thing that's going on in English.

Apart from strict medical/anatomical contexts, referring to the thumb as a finger is perfectly fine, and has plenty of literary precedence.

/endrant

[Sir_Godspeed]

As for Mostali, the base-8 probably comes from the eight original castes, I'd bet.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I have four fingers. Did you mean three fingers? And the answer is "depends on the breed, probably, and whether they've been sleeping near enlo"

Also, base-8 systems have been recorded in natural IRL human languages.

Sorry, I forgot that for some english speaking people, the thumb is not a finger. In french, the 'pouce' is a 'doigt', In german, the 'Daumen' is a 'Finger', in italian, the 'pollice' is a 'dito', ...

[Joerg]

Counting on the (five) fingers actually supports a base 12 counting system. Dozens, a gros... and weird intermediaries between base 10 and base 12, like the "large hundred" of 120.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Joerg
Clarification to avoid the Barrayaran mutant slight that someone could count to 24 if he took off his shoes.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

And in several cartoon animal and alien languages.

 

aint seen that in a while

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

Why? Do they have 4 fingers?

Eight seems to be a sacred (well, whatever is the dwarven equivalent - "well-optimized", perhaps) number. Compare Octamonism.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ugh, I hate the whole "but the thumb is not a finger" thing that's going on in English.

Apart from strict medical/anatomical contexts, referring to the thumb as a finger is perfectly fine, and has plenty of literary precedence.

/endrant

I was just really taken aback when you said, "maybe they have four fingers", I literally was like "do I have brain fog today" and started counting. It might also vary; English is a big-ass language.

it ain't got no business being a finger. sure it's a digit, but a finger? a finger ain't so useful as a thumb.

also the thumb is like the claw bit of the hand that does all the work. deserves its own name. four fingers and a THUMB.

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I was just really taken aback when you said, "maybe they have four fingers", I literally was like "do I have brain fog today" and started counting. It might also vary; English is a big-ass language.

it ain't got no business being a finger. sure it's a digit, but a finger? a finger ain't so useful as a thumb.

also the thumb is like the claw bit of the hand that does all the work. deserves its own name. four fingers and a THUMB.

I am the guy that spoke of 4 fingers, not Sir_Godspeed, and I already apologized for the english language mistake.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it ain't got no business being a finger. sure it's a digit, but a finger? a finger ain't so useful as a thumb.

 

I suppose you might have a point (I am sure there is a pun in there). After all, has anyone tried to hitchhike with a finger?

Edited October 1, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I am the guy that spoke of 4 fingers, not Sir_Godspeed, and I already apologized for the english language mistake.

English is a big language; don't sweat it. And again, like I said, I was just amused because I had just woken up and was like, "wait, how many?" It was not meant as a mean criticism; that reply was meant for Sir. Sir Godspeed because we're not in a BDSM relationship and wasn't meant to be mean.

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman
Apparently now I'm in a BDSM relationship

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

English is a big language; don't sweat it. And again, like I said, I was just amused because I had just woken up and was like, "wait, how many?" It was not meant as a mean criticism; that reply was meant for Sir. Sir Godspeed because we're not in a BDSM relationship

 

No problem here. I am just tired and going to bed.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Kloster said:

No problem here. I am just tired and going to bed.

a gutn nakht (sorry, only Yidish)

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I was just really taken aback when you said, "maybe they have four fingers", I literally was like "do I have brain fog today" and started counting. It might also vary; English is a big-ass language.

it ain't got no business being a finger. sure it's a digit, but a finger? a finger ain't so useful as a thumb.

also the thumb is like the claw bit of the hand that does all the work. deserves its own name. four fingers and a THUMB.

It was mostly a reaction to the trend I've seen among Anglophones  - let's say of the "nerdier persuasion" (which is not meant as an insult, I'm pretty sure it covers most people who come online to discuss the details of a make-believe universe, and very much including myself) - to adopt needlessly technical distinctions in colloquial speech/writing.

Something along the lines of "Umm actually it's a truck not a car/a ship not a boat/a fruit not a vegetable/a republic not a democracy/thumb not a finger/marine not a soldier/pond not a lake", etc. which just makes me a bit exasperated, because there's no need to bring in those kinds of technical jargon-based distinctions unless they are specifically relevant. (Also, in several of those examples, the categories are not mutually exclusive, but that's a different gripe).

Anyway, it's certainly possible that the Mostali used their thumbs to count the rest of their digits to reach base-8, in much the same way as the Sumerians did, although the Sumerians did it to reach base-12 (by counting the finger joints, not the fingers themselves)



I'm still leaning towards the "eight metals = base-8" though. Seems more mythically significant.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

It was mostly a reaction to the trend I've seen among Anglophones  - let's say of the "nerdier persuasion" - to adopt needlessly technical distinctions in colloquial speech/writing.

I'm nerdy but typically the opposite of prescriptive?

Eight is also the eight primary runes: harmony, death, fertility, disruption, truth, illusion, etc., which are sometimes called "the eight tent-pegs" or "the eight pillars" and align with the eight planets.

There's a lot of eight going around.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

that reply was meant for Sir. Sir Godspeed because we're not in a BDSM relationship and wasn't meant to be mean.

 

Jesus, no. I had a bad experience with someone insisting on referring to their dominant partner in certain submissive terms even when speaking with me (an entirely unrelated third party) and it creeped me out a bit. Although I guess I haven't exactly made it easy for people with my username I guess... any variation that people is comfortable is fine. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Eight is also the eight primary runes: harmony, death, fertility, disruption, truth, illusion, etc., which are sometimes called "the eight tent-pegs" or "the eight pillars" and align with the eight planets.

There's a lot of eight going around.

That's a good point.

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Anyway, it's certainly possible that the Mostali used their thumbs to count the rest of their digits to reach base-8, in much the same way as the Sumerians did, although the Sumerians did it to reach base-12 (by counting the finger joints, not the fingers themselves)

I would support  the idea that they also have a binary system for finger binary counting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary

Edited October 2, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:52 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

... with my username I guess... any variation that people is comfortable is fine. 

Sir... God's Peed!

<cos sometimes, the snarky gotta snark>

 

 

On 10/1/2019 at 2:52 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Jesus, no. I had a bad experience with someone insisting on referring to their dominant partner in certain submissive terms even when speaking with me (an entirely unrelated third party) and it creeped me out a bit.

That's usually taken to be a Bad Thing.

Consent is important for folks who operate in that space, and rubbing other folks' noses in it IS involving them; and it's doing so without their consent.

I'm pretty live-and-let-live about consenting adults and whatever their kinks are and are not, but public display always borders on problematic (usually unethical, and often illegal), and easily slips over those lines.

Even with my live-and-let-live attitude, I'm not happy when others do this stuff in front of me, either.