Gifts and starting Loyalty

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or in other words, go raid your neighbors, bring three cattle to their next clan rites, and gain loyalty 60% to that wyter/temple?

Absolutely. 

Why wouldn't that work?

Sounds like a worth-while career to follow. Steal three or more cows from each temple in Sartar, then donate them to that temple (and participate in the subsequent feast).

 

BTW, the loyalty skill is a passion the player character can roll on to augment abilities used for the benefit of that temple. It doesn't mean that that temple suddenly is loyal to the character, beyond enjoying a good roast.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Yes, that works.

The Cacodemon cultists probably uses False Form to trick and infiltrate the Storm Bull Temple. If be brings a herd of cattle to sacrifice then why wouldn't he be treated well?

You're missing the point. If he donates 10000L to the Storm BUll cult he wouls suddenly have an incredibly high Loyalty to the Storm Bull cult, which would end up opposing everything Cacodaemon stands for. So he new Loyalty would probably force him to hunt down other members of his cult and maybe even commit suicide. 

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

That might work, but the Priests might wonder why the donor hasn't come along, perhaps he's too snooty and stuck up, perhaps he's busy, perhaps he's not what he seems. A lot of Kings and Queens have donated money in the Real World's past to places they have never been. 

Yes, but Kin gs and Queen s didn't get their loyalty changed because of it.

 

Coming from from a long history of Pendragon. where the Loyalty/Passion rules originated, this whole thing looks like a nightmare to me. Someone can go from having no Loyalty to becoming a fanatic just by donating some money. So anyone who is rich will end up being more devout just because they can afford to donate more., even if they do nothing else for their faith.Considering the stipulations of Rune level characters towards donating 90% of their income to their cult their loyalty scores will quickly outpace all their other scores, and we will se Loyalty scores of 4 or 5 digits.

[Brootse]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:22 PM, Atgxtg said:

You're missing the point. If he donates 10000L to the Storm BUll cult he wouls suddenly have an incredibly high Loyalty to the Storm Bull cult, which would end up opposing everything Cacodaemon stands for. So he new Loyalty would probably force him to hunt down other members of his cult and maybe even commit suicide. 

 

Yes, but Kin gs and Queen s didn't get their loyalty changed because of it.

 

Coming from from a long history of Pendragon. where the Loyalty/Passion rules originated, this whole thing looks like a nightmare to me. Someone can go from having no Loyalty to becoming a fanatic just by donating some money. So anyone who is rich will end up being more devout just because they can afford to donate more., even if they do nothing else for their faith.Considering the stipulations of Rune level characters towards donating 90% of their income to their cult their loyalty scores will quickly outpace all their other scores, and we will se Loyalty scores of 4 or 5 digits.

You are inventing stuff that isn't written in the rules. Devotion is a different passion.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Brootse said:

You are inventing stuff that isn't written in the rules. Devotion is a different passion.

Correct. Loyalty to a person or temple is very different from Devotion. But if someone gives a 1000 L gift to their temple, damn right that temple is going to listen to what they say and treat them as a patron.

And the 90% that Rune masters must give their temple isn't a gift. A better way of thinking of it is the assets and time of a Rune master belong to the temple, but they are permitted to treat 10% as personal funds. But since their food, clothing, servants, etc. are usually provided by the temple - this isn't too onerous.

I'd only let a Rune master make a gift from that 10% that is theirs.

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'd only let a Rune master make a gift from that 10% that is theirs.

What I might allow is a Runemaster giving a gift of a Single Treasure, Magical Bull or Whatever, before any tithe is taken. Almost a case of "Oh, this isn't mine, it's for the Temple", then declaring income afterwards.

[Atgxtg]

45 minutes ago, Brootse said:

You are inventing stuff that isn't written in the rules. Devotion is a different passion.

So what does loyalty encompass then? If someone has a high loyalty to their church could the rob, betray, or  destroy it?

And again, what to keep a lunar governor from buying enough influence to run roughshod over a cult?

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

And again, what to keep a lunar governor from buying enough influence to run roughshod over a cult?

Nothing, because that's what happens in real life and historically. Someone comes along, flashes a load of money and buys influence. Some people don't like it and go away to dig up some dirt to spoil their reputation, but everyone else thinks they are wonderful.

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

Nothing, because that's what happens in real life and historically. Someone comes along, flashes a load of money and buys influence. Some people don't like it and go away to dig up some dirt to spoil their reputation, but everyone else thinks they are wonderful.

Yep. This is precisely what we want to have happen - if adventurers want to buy the loyalty of something or someone, they can. But it can get pretty darn pricey. 

[Lordabdul]

19 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So what does loyalty encompass then? If someone has a high loyalty to their church could the rob, betray, or  destroy it?

I think you're getting confused because "Loyalty" has a certain implication about the relationship being from the character to the other character/temple/etc ("I'm loyal to the Colymar Queen and tribe"). But it's really more of a bi-directional relationship, depending on the situation and on the roll. In some cases, it might be better to consider this Passion to be called "Standing" or something ("How much standing do I have with the Colymar Queen for her to lean in my direction").

In the case of the Cacodemon priest trying to infiltrate institutions, it represents how loyal people think he is ("I heard he just gave 100000L to the tribal council! He's so awesome!") and, therefore, how much he can use that to his advantage to sway people's opinions and get favours. Victims of ransoms roll under Loyalty or Love to see if their people are going to pay... obviously this isn't to measure how much you love your people, it's to measure how much your people love you (and therefore how willing they are to pay your ransom). The Cacodemon priest might invoke his Loyalty with the Colymar Queen and, with a good enough roll, plus some augmented Persuade ("I swear, my Queen, they're crazy, they're lying! You know me! I don't worship demons, I'm a good, gift-giving, Orlanth worshiping member of your tribe!"), he might actually get away with the tribal council paying his ransom. The Queen surely won't be happy when she learns the truth 2 seasons later.

In other cases, the Loyalty might be just that -- proper bi-direction relationship, and an adventurer might end up with conflicting loyalties, and she might roll to figure out which one wins.

And in yet other cases, like, say, you think you work for this Orlanthi patron but he's really a Cacodemon fiend, you might want to invoke a Loyalty against him, only to inexplicably fail that 80% roll because, really, the GM secretly knows this guy has -100% against you and is maneuvering behind your back. It's time to go tell the Colymar Queen about this and gather up some weaponthanes to kick that guy's butt.

 

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

I think you're getting confused because "Loyalty" has a certain implication about the relationship being from the character to the other character/temple/etc ("I'm loyal to the Colymar Queen and tribe"). But it's really more of a bi-directional relationship, depending on the situation and on the roll. In some cases, it might be better to consider this Passion to be called "Standing" or something ("How much standing do I have with the Colymar Queen for her to lean in my direction").

Loyalty is defined as a strong felling of support or allegiance, and in Pendragon means just that.

Based upon the posts about it is RQG, it just seems to be influence and status, and not really a passion at all.

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

In other cases, the Loyalty might be just that -- proper bi-direction relationship, and an adventurer might end up with conflicting loyalties, and she might roll to figure out which one wins

So basically having a high Loyalty passion has nothing to do with Loyalty in RQG. 

What does cover actual loyalty?

[Lordabdul]

24 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Loyalty is defined as a strong felling of support or allegiance

Yes, but it doesn't specify from who to who. When you write "Loyalty (Colymar)" on your character sheet, it can mean "I'm loyal to the Colymar", or "the Colymar is loyal to me", or "we're loyal to each other". I think it's meant to be used either way depending on the situation (95% of the time, it would be "to each other", I expect). I do understand how confusing it can be, though.

24 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

What does cover actual loyalty?

Devotion, I think.

Edited December 4, 2019 by lordabdul

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yes, but it doesn't specify from who to who. When you write "Loyalty (Colymar)" on your character sheet, it can mean "I'm loyal to the Colymar", or "the Colymar is loyal to me", or "we're loyal to each other". I think it's meant to be used either way depending on the situation (95% of the time, it would be "to each other", I expect). I do understand how confusing it can be, though.

Devotion, I think.

Loyalty is a two-way street. If you are loyal to someone, you can expect them to be loyal to you. Of course, this gets into conflict with other passions or Runes, and thus being loyal to someone with a higher Illusion or Disorder Rune might not be so reciprocal. 

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Yes, but it doesn't specify from who to who. When you write "Loyalty (Colymar)" on your character sheet, it can mean "I'm loyal to the Colymar", or "the Colymar is loyal to me", or "we're loyal to each other". I think it's meant to be used either way depending on the situation. I do understand how confusing it can be, though.

I don't see how this is a passion, but more a matter of how much "pull" they have within the organization. In Pendragon, there is a Loyalty (Vassals) trait and even Loyalty (A particular Knight) and Concern (My commoners) to cover the reciprocal aspects of a relationship.

Also if is can be either either way, then what determines when a character can ignore their loyalty, or if they are entitled to use it for inspiration?

 

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Devotion, I think.

And is devotion required to achieve high rank in an organization? 

[Lordabdul]

Just now, Jeff said:

Loyalty is a two-way street.

Yep I agree. And actually reading back on it in RQG, "Loyalty" is reserved for human factions and persons (authority figure and tribes, for instance), while "Devotion" is reserved for deities (which models the "one-way-street" aspect of dealing with gods).

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Jeff said:

Loyalty is a two-way street. If you are loyal to someone, you can expect them to be loyal to you. Of course, this gets into conflict with other passions or Runes, and thus being loyal to someone with a higher Illusion or Disorder Rune might not be so reciprocal. 

Now I'm getting confused. If a character shells out a lot of lunars to a temple does he now feel an obligation to that temple? I don't just mean the faith, but also to the orgnaization that is that particular temple?

 

 

[Lordabdul]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

I don't see how this is a passion, but more a matter of how much "pull" they have within the organization.

I fail to see the difference. Whether it's social or financial influence or "true love" or whatever, it's effectively used to make other people do what you want, so yes, in all cases, it's a "pull".

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Also if is can be either either way, then what determines when a character can ignore their loyalty, or if they are entitled to use it for inspiration?

Sounds to me like it's a two-way street in Pendragon too. And like I said, in 95% of the case, I think it represents both loyalties in both directions, so the Loyalty always comes into play. The 5% case is the deceiving Cacodemon spy. If you want, you can represent that case with something else than "Loyalty".

6 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

And is devotion required to achieve high rank in an organization?

I take it back -- Devotion is just for deities.

[Lordabdul]

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

If a character shells out a lot of lunars to a temple does he now feel an obligation to that temple?

If you shell out Lunars to a temple, you're either (1) genuinely loyal to the temple, making a genuine donation, and therefore strengthening the loyalty bond between you and the temple, or (2) a rich scheming person who wants to grease some wheels (and potentially a Cacodemon spy). I think RQG assumes the former because that's the 95% case. Just write down something else than "Loyalty" on the character sheet if you're in situation 2 (maybe write "Pull" or "Standing" or whatever).

Edited December 4, 2019 by lordabdul

[Atgxtg]

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I fail to see the difference. Whether it's social or financial influence or "true love" or whatever, it's effectively used to make other people do what you want, so yes, in all cases, it's a "pull".

The difference is that in Pendragon a passion is something that the character feels strongly about.  THat is why it can affect his actions and drive him towards inspiration.

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sounds to me like it's a two-way street in Pendragon too.

It's not. Just because you have Loyalty (King) at a high rating does not mean that the King has a high Loyalty to you. He might, but he might not. Romantic passions are the classic example. 

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

And like I said, in 95% of the case, I think it represents both loyalties in both directions, so the Loyalty always comes into play. The 5% case is the deceiving Cacodemon spy. If you want, you can represent that case with something else than "Loyalty".

So someone can pick up a fanatical loyalty to a particular Temple (say Sun Dome) by donating a lot of money to it. Again I say, Yuk!

 

[Lordabdul]

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The difference is that in Pendragon a passion is something that the character feels strongly about.  THat is why it can affect his actions and drive him towards inspiration.

So how do you model asymmetrical relationships in Pendragon then? If you have a strong Loyalty to your King, but the King is secretly jealous of you and will do everything he can to get you dead, how does that work? Is there any mechanism to modify whatever rolls you do when you appeal to the King's favour?

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So someone can pick up a fanatical loyalty to a particular Temple (say Sun Dome) by donating a lot of money to it. Again I say, Yuk!

The reason we play RPGs and not board games is because RPGs have a referee that can bend the rules when necessary. That's, like, the golden rule of all RPGs. In this case, again, it would be the "scheming character" case, and the Loyalty you get would be actually just one-way. Write it down in the notes on the character sheet, and use it only when you want the Sun Dome templars to do something for you.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The difference is that in Pendragon a passion is something that the character feels strongly about.  THat is why it can affect his actions and drive him towards inspiration.

It's not. Just because you have Loyalty (King) at a high rating does not mean that the King has a high Loyalty to you. He might, but he might not. Romantic passions are the classic example. 

So someone can pick up a fanatical loyalty to a particular Temple (say Sun Dome) by donating a lot of money to it. Again I say, Yuk!

 

If that player is saying they want to make a huge donation to that temple so that it supports them, why not? In most cultures, a patron-client relationship works both ways. If the player says, "I want to make sure I have the support of that temple," and gives them a huge donation - then let them have a strong loyalty with that temple. Easy as that.

If they are giving a big donation and don't want to gain a passion - then don't give them one. Again, easy as that.

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So someone can pick up a fanatical loyalty to a particular Temple (say Sun Dome) by donating a lot of money to it. Again I say, Yuk!

It's a gift economy, and honestly, it's not as though you can't buy loyalty even today. Makes perfect sense to me.

Might not work with actually hostile entities, as they might not take your filthy corrupting lucre in the first place.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

So how do you model asymmetrical relationships in Pendragon then? If you have a strong Loyalty to your King, but the King is secretly jealous of you and will do everything he can to get you dead, how does that work? Is there any mechanism to modify whatever rolls you do when you appeal to the King's favour?

By noting significant traits and passions of both parties. So you can have a knight with Loyalty (King) at a high score but his King could have a Traits, directed traits, and Passions that are against that knight.

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

The reason we play RPGs and not board games is because RPGs have a referee that can bend the rules when necessary.

Yes, but what does that do with this situation?

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

That's, like, the golden rule of all RPGs. In this case, again, it would be the "scheming character" case, and the Loyalty you get would be actually just one-way. Write it down in the notes on the character sheet, and use it only when you want the Sun Dome templars to do something for you.

In which case the loyalty isn't actually a passion then is it? 

 

The key thing abotu Passions in Pendragon, including Loyalty is that you  feel them and they pull upon you to act in a certain way. Someone with a high Loyartly would have a very hard time betraying someone they were loyalty to, and ususally that would happen when the loyatly was overcome by another passion.

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

It's a gift economy, and honestly, it's not as though you can't buy loyalty even today. Makes perfect sense to me.

Except you'r buying their loyalty to you, not your loyalty to them.

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Except you'r buying their loyalty to you, not your loyalty to them.

Yes? Why do people make large political donations (answer: to buy favors), donations to universities (answer: to buy spots for their kids or to get their own doctor's hat), and so on? 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Atgxtg]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If that player is saying they want to make a huge donation to that temple so that it supports them, why not?

Because peoples feeling and emotions to someone or some organization do no change just because they give money to that someone or organization. Just because I give money to a church shouldn't make me more loyal to that church.

It's also a bad game rule that cheapens passions and loyatliies since they can be had and improved so easily. Someone can litlerayy go from zero to hero in a cult by giving a bit donation.

 

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In most cultures, a patron-client relationship works both ways. If the player says, "I want to make sure I have the support of that temple," and gives them a huge donation - then let them have a strong loyalty with that temple. Easy as that.

Yes, except that is not a loyalty, nor any sort of passion. Rich people donate large sums of money to various churches and charities but it doesn't generate any sort of loyalty between them and those organisations.

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If they are giving a big donation and don't want to gain a passion - then don't give them one. Again, easy as that.

First off is the passion optional?

Secondly, Can they keep the "pull" without taking the loyalty?