Women in Glorantha

[HeartQuintessence]

(phone posting draft)

Initiation of Women, of the Feminine and of Glorantha and storytelling there in.

 

So i see much of the Gloranthan materials do the whole "male role as default "   which is a reflection of earth.

 

I am considering putting together a book perhaps even go so far as to do Jonstown Compendium because i as a female gamer wanna see more of this sort of thing.

 

But i need help: what resources do i turn to, do i juat make stuff up? As i read about Male initiation i realized it... Active and outer world related.

 

Female role initiation i feel should be just as harrowing and interesting  facing people and the mythical.

 

Anyone have opiniona or ideas.. I hobestly am considering writing a Wonder women style compendium clan using HQ (coming storm and 11 light) kas a starting point and building out.

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

But i need help: what resources do i turn to, do i juat make stuff up? As i read about Male initiation i realized it... Active and outer world related.

I'd suggest starting with Greg's view on Ernalda initiation: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/ernaldan-initiation-rites/ 

There's some ideas around Esrolian initiation in the Stafford Library Esrolia book, but it does not go very far.

But would definitely love to see more thoughts and ideas on this topic!

[HeartQuintessence]

I have been wanting to wait till the Esorlia source book, and/ the God and goddess book hoping...

 

I had read those prior.

 

But i guess i have to do it myself .

[Eff]

The broad difficulty here is that the defining events which have hitherto been described in initiating terms are ones that emphasize passivity on the part of the initiate. You can see this in the Ernaldan outline- "this passivity is key to Ernalda's power". Or in what appears to be the defining Dendara event, where her virtuousness lifts her into the sky away from the impure world. Or in the Lives of Sedenya, where the passages of the Red Goddess primarily consist of having things done to her- impregnation by Umath, shot down by Lukarius, impaled and tormented by the Devil, etc. 

There are active feminine deities, but they're subsidiary in several senses. 

So my thought is that you're going to have to make up a lot of stuff from the existing material. (Eg: reframing the Ernaldan initiation to be about the active creation of the adult self rather than by the parthenogenetic impregnation with the adult self via passive experience. Or a Dendara initiation which consists of a series of active tests of Virtue that culminates in a moment of ascension.) But I do look forward to seeing this project develop and would be quite willing to offer my thoughts.

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I have been wanting to wait till the Esorlia source book, and/ the God and goddess book hoping...

I do not believe the Nochet source book will have that level of detail.  I haven't seen any indication that the cults book will detail the initiation rites, but possible that Jeff could add something on that.

I'll suggest that you just plunge forward with ideas! 🙂

 

[HeartQuintessence]

44 minutes ago, Eff said:

The broad difficulty here is that the defining events which have hitherto been described in initiating terms are ones that emphasize passivity on the part of the initiate. You can see this in the Ernaldan outline- "this passivity is key to Ernalda's power". Or in what appears to be the defining Dendara event, where her virtuousness lifts her into the sky away from the impure world. Or in the Lives of Sedenya, where the passages of the Red Goddess primarily consist of having things done to her- impregnation by Umath, shot down by Lukarius, impaled and tormented by the Devil, etc. 

There are active feminine deities, but they're subsidiary in several senses. 

So my thought is that you're going to have to make up a lot of stuff from the existing material. (Eg: reframing the Ernaldan initiation to be about the active creation of the adult self rather than by the parthenogenetic impregnation with the adult self via passive experience. Or a Dendara initiation which consists of a series of active tests of Virtue that culminates in a moment of ascension.) But I do look forward to seeing this project develop and would be quite willing to offer my thoughts.

Yes please. As a newbie to Glorantha i will happily take those  thoughts.

 

I did discover that passivity was the main "theme" and maybe that inversion is nessacery and building upon it is probably a good thing. It maybe why the female rites are not talked about.

 

I mean groqing food is hardly passive, hunting is probably masculine.. But using your crops as a lure... Is crafty and 'feminine'.

Turning things into active hmm does seem to make them Masculine by Gloranthan standards... Right? If The red goddess who was shot feom the sky... Instead choose to come down and caught the arrow as it approached, so she is still hit, but instead chooses to descended to meet her foe...

 Time to grow Glorantha  alittle wider  I guess.

Edited December 20, 2019 by HeartQuintessence

[Puckohue]

Here's an Ernaldan initiation rite: https://andrewloganmontgomery.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-riddle-ernaldan-initiation-for.html

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

i as a female gamer wanna see more of this sort of thing . . .  do i juat make stuff up?

Starting with your experience as a female gamer can unlock wonders. If the stories and structures available don't express your view of the world, nobody is better equipped to discover new ones that can do better. It probably won't happen all at once.

Perversely Greg's essay in a book called "Choirs of the God: Revisioning Masculinity" might be really useful to anyone looking to decode a bit of the gender journey that gave us the stories and structures available. Once we know better where we've been, it can get easier to figure out where to go next.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I am considering putting together a book perhaps even go so far as to do Jonstown Compendium because i as a female gamer wanna see more of this sort of thing.

 

So do I, so do I, @Jane has been writing about women and Glorantha for a while and might have some tips but at the least visit her sight for a look at one particular woman hero...http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/index.cfm

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I'll suggest that you just plunge forward with ideas! 🙂

 

although we are not all jajagappa, he has a lot of wisdom and delivers the goods Perhaps it is time to brainstorm up a bunch o stuff and begin writing what you know, the priestesses the mores the female points  of view the women heroes. Doing this you might be a large part f the coming RQ revolutions as it drags other  knuckle-dragging RPGs kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

57 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

1 hour ago, Eff said:

So my thought is that you're going to have to make up a lot of stuff from the existing material. (Eg: reframing the Ernaldan initiation to be about the active creation of the adult self rather than by the parthenogenetic impregnation with the adult self via passive experience. Or a Dendara initiation which consists of a series of active tests of Virtue that culminates in a moment of ascension.) But I do look forward to seeing this project develop and would be quite willing to offer my thoughts.

 

as Efff says...

40 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Starting with your experience as a female gamer can unlock wonders. If the stories and structures available don't express your view of the world, nobody is better equipped to discover new ones that can do better. It probably won't happen all at once.

 

Thanks Scott, that’s what I was looking for...

 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

The broad difficulty here

no Bill do not go for the obvious pun, no, bad barbarian...

[HeartQuintessence]

As I am discovering, Glorantha is split up over a lot of stuff and sometimes you have to be an advocate of change that you want to see. And right now, that's presenting Women ( and all that entails), to the audience. So many times its  murder, and take loot. If Glorantha is about community, then the things which build it are nessacery, and that means women.

 

Can a woman be woman and still do masculine things, being a Initiate of Ernalda but still enjoy the feel of bow as it the arrow hits its mark and it means those under your care may eat meat tonight? (Or any other number of things).

I know I want to do a initiation of female characters and then turn them into an adventuring party ( and I've never done this before.

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

As I am discovering, Glorantha is split up over a lot of stuff and sometimes you have to be an advocate of change that you want to see. And right now, that's presenting Women ( and all that entails), to the audience. So many times its  murder, and take loot. If Glorantha is about community, then the things which build it are nessacery, and that means women.

I'd love to see that sort of thing, as it fits nicely into many of the good parts of Glorantha.

4 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Can a woman be woman and still do masculine things, being a Initiate of Ernalda but still enjoy the feel of bow as it the arrow hits its mark and it means those under your care may eat meat tonight? (Or any other number of things).

Does being a Woman involve shunning all "masculine things"?

Can you be a Woman and still do things that are traditionally masculine?

5 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I know I want to do a initiation of female characters and then turn them into an adventuring party ( and I've never done this before.

Sound like a great idea.

[Jane]

Thanks for the tag, Bill.

Lots to answer here.... let's start with the question that's so obvious I'm surprised anyone's asking it. "Can you be a Woman and still do things that are traditionally masculine?" I'm a wargamer, former engineer, and as part of historical reenactment, used to hit people with swords, and "man" a cannon. Will have to get back to shooting that longbow again sometime, I can still do that without needing working legs. Main career was as a programmer, with the first 18 years of that being in military engineering. Am I a woman? I'll have to get my husband to check, but he was pretty convinced last time we looked. TLDR: yes, of course you can!

My website hasn't been updated for far too long, but let me point you at a few potentially useful bits.

Ernaldan (or rather, Earth Six) initiation: http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/marshedge/earthinit.cfm

The Lifebringer's Quest http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/stories/elbq.cfm

RQ3 Vinga cult writeup http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/vinga/index.cfm

Here's the Stories page, and a lot of them are about Vingans, or specifically Kallyr. http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/stories/index.cfm

(There's also about half a novel about Kallyr and her friends at Whitewall lurking on the hard drive. I keep adding bits, but it's nowhere near finished yet)

and one about a young Esrolian Humakti may be of interest in this context http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/stories/duel.cfm

The Secret History of Sun County is up there, but I don't think "What my mother's sister told me", the female viewpoint on Sun County life, ever went on line. I'll have to see if I can find it.

The other place you definitely want to look to find out more about Vinga is John Hughes' take on the subject. He pretty much took over Vinga where I left off, developing the role of Vingans in clan life. Have a wander around here https://myth-o-logic.org/glorantha/

 

For active not passive women, you'll want to look at Babeester Gor, of course.

Also, do you have access to Thunder Rebels and the host of Ernaldan subcults in there? You want to. https://www.chaosium.com/thunder-rebels-pdf/

After that, go on to Storm Tribe to find out more about Vinga  https://www.chaosium.com/storm-tribe-pdf/

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Jane said:

Thanks for the tag, Bill.

 

Truly a pleasure, thank you for the response.

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Jane said:

Lots to answer here.... let's start with the question that's so obvious I'm surprised anyone's asking it. "Can you be a Woman and still do things that are traditionally masculine?" I'm a wargamer, former engineer, and as part of historical reenactment, used to hit people with swords, and "man" a cannon. Will have to get back to shooting that longbow again sometime, I can still do that without needing working legs. Main career was as a programmer, with the first 18 years of that being in military engineering. Am I a woman? I'll have to get my husband to check, but he was pretty convinced last time we looked. TLDR: yes, of course you can!

Which is why I asked it, as the answer is an obvious Yes.

I wondered why the Op asked 

31 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Can a woman be woman and still do masculine things

as the answer to that is also Yes.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

as the answer to that is also Yes.

Having spent a third of my working like in kitchens; as a dishpig line cook charcutier, saucier and sous chef, I would say a man can do a women’s work quite well...

Thankfully such distinctions are wending their way out the extinction doorway in my lifetime, Yay! 

[Jane]

Thinking through other very female HQs I've seen online, there's one by a certain @soltakss that's very much worth a look. http://www.soltakss.com/unicorn1.html

Excellent site for many things, well worth a look around it

[Jane]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Having spent a third of my working like in kitchens; as a dishpig line cook charcutier, saucier and sous chef, I would say a man can do a women’s work quite well...

Thankfully such distinctions are wending their way out the extinction doorway in my lifetime, Yay! 

And of course both can do both. I also like cooking, sewing, teddy bears...

But yes, there are a few very odd people who apparently haven't quite caught on to this yet. I remember once being told in all seriousness that obviously any woman in RL who was in a male-dominated industry was hated and feared by all her male colleagues and would have to be lesbian as a result. Yes, this was in a Gloranthan forum. Mad. Delusional, even.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Jane said:

But yes, there are a few very odd people who apparently haven't quite caught on to this yet. I remember once being told in all seriousness that obviously any woman in RL who was in a male-dominated industry was hated and feared by all her male colleagues and would have to be lesbian as a result. Yes, this was in a Gloranthan forum. Mad. Delusional, even.

I got your back on that shit, no worries.I have seen few things that perturbed me around here but nothing that f’ed up.

[Eff]

I also have a blog/website for Gloranthan material, of which https://eightarmsandthemask.blogspot.com/2019/12/what-reed-woman-told-me-excerpt.html?m=1 is probably the most immediately relevant in playing with gender and womanhood. I also have a Vinga story there but it focuses on some specific experiences of womanhood rather than more generic ones.

[Jane]

5 minutes ago, Eff said:

I also have a blog/website for Gloranthan material, of which https://eightarmsandthemask.blogspot.com/2019/12/what-reed-woman-told-me-excerpt.html?m=1 is probably the most immediately relevant in playing with gender and womanhood. I also have a Vinga story there but it focuses on some specific experiences of womanhood rather than more generic ones.

Ooh... I can see me losing an awful lot of time reading that!

[Jane]

Is there a copy of the scenario "The Peace Process" online anywhere? Very much the female side of things, there.

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, Jane said:

Ooh... I can see me losing an awful lot of time reading that!

Thank you, that's a huge compliment!

 

 

https://eightarmsandthemask.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-axe-and-sealed-jar-babeester-gor.html?m=1

This is a bit more of a variant Glorantha, I think, but it also touches on gender roles via the Babeester Gor cult and four short myths. 

[soltakss]

36 minutes ago, Jane said:

Thinking through other very female HQs I've seen online, there's one by a certain @soltakss that's very much worth a look. http://www.soltakss.com/unicorn1.html

Thanks Jane. That was based on a dream that I had, but the dream took the form of a number of black plates with white etchings, except that they moved like a cartoon. A bit like the plates of the Red Goddess' story.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

As I am discovering, Glorantha is split up over a lot of stuff and sometimes you have to be an advocate of change that you want to see. And right now, that's presenting Women ( and all that entails), to the audience. So many times its  murder, and take loot. If Glorantha is about community, then the things which build it are nessacery, and that means women.

 

I so like these sentences the thinking, the very idea of being and doing advocacy, all while in a gaming context that I had to pull this quote out and admire it again. You are not mistaken, I have seen this again, and again. Some of the best of our hobby have come about this way, on the lozenge. 

This gem of thinking joins the other insights I have had as to why I have always loved Chaosium. One day I will sit and list them all but this, this, creatively generous bit of genius that has always infused and differentiated the Chaosuim from many of the (lesser) others. The idea of being the change (shaman, really) at the heart of this philosophy... Well, I will stop raving now and go away.

Cheers

[HeartQuintessence]

Thanks for all the  points of light in a sea of darkness.

 

But now I need to figure out how to create my own material when I don't know the world. but maybe I can start here.

 

 And no one has to stop, honestly its given me a bit of an ego boost to hear that I am doing it 'right'.

I just have to know where to start.

 

Knowing whether or not to grab the HQ books and work on building a tribe.

 

Hmm maybe that is the Quest, the girls are experiencing, and building off of, build a tribe  when they return as a dult women to the waking world. And that's mission for the adventure portion.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by HeartQuintessence