Item Prices

[GAZZA]

The equipment list in RQG is a bit bare; it seems (from the bits on poisons and so on) that poison antidotes are still a thing in RQG, but there doesn't seem to be any prices for them. I could just use the RQ2 alchemy price list but I get the impression that it's a little OTT for RQG. There doesn't seem to be an easy conversion formula though; the armour prices in RQ2 are comparable (a plate cuirass is 200L in RQ2, 175 in RQG) but RQ2 wants 2000L for Disruption, whereas it would only cost 50L according to RQG page 257. Not sure how many RQG PCs are going to be able to afford 400L for a POT 10 system antidote poison, say.

Anyone have any suggestions for RQG poisons, antidotes, and the like? Any hope for an RQG alchemy system (something RQ3 badly lacked compared to RQ2)?

Edited May 7, 2020 by GAZZA

[Arcadiagt5]

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list. It became relevant when I was running the Arrows of War vignette, and the newly appointed Thane of Apple Lane wanted to properly outfit his militia and feed them for a couple of weeks on the march. 

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list. It became relevant when I was running the Arrows of War vignette, and the newly appointed Thane of Apple Lane wanted to properly outfit his militia and feed them for a couple of weeks on the march. 

Those prices were in the GM's guide in the last edition, so we won't probably have the official prices before RQG's GM's guide is printed. Or the prices may have been removed because RQG's adventurers aren't supposed to be roaming murderhobos who eat trail rations, but instead locals, who just happen to have adventures, and can just take the needed foor from their own pantry. You could perhaps make it a tax, so that the miltiamembers' households have to make the rations, or use RQ3's 1/10L per day.

[Brootse]

3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

The equipment list in RQG is a bit bare; it seems (from the bits on poisons and so on) that poison antidotes are still a thing in RQG, but there doesn't seem to be any prices for them. I could just use the RQ2 alchemy price list but I get the impression that it's a little OTT for RQG. There doesn't seem to be an easy conversion formula though; the armour prices in RQ2 are comparable (a plate cuirass is 200L in RQ2, 175 in RQG) but RQ2 wants 2000L for Disruption, whereas it would only cost 50L according to RQG page 257. Not sure how many RQG PCs are going to be able to afford 400L for a POT 10 system antidote poison, say.

Anyone have any suggestions for RQG poisons, antidotes, and the like? Any hope for an RQG alchemy system (something RQ3 badly lacked compared to RQ2)?

Some nominal prices were kept the same while income dropped, which means that some things have even absurd costs. Eg. a simple wooden self bow now costs more than a hunter makes in a year, while in the Middle Ages a bow would have cost a week's wage. And bowyery isn't some high tech, bows were made already during the Paleolithic Age.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Anyone have any suggestions for RQG poisons, antidotes, and the like?

p.175 under Alchemy: This skill must be used with specific raw materials. This skill is a cult secret of Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, and certain Lunar cults. Their temples have supplies of such substances and sell them to initiates, at a cost of 50 L per point of potential potency.

Likely they sell to outsiders at a good markup.  And that's pretty much in line with the old RQ2 prices for systemic poisons/antidotes, as well as acid.

Edited May 7, 2020 by jajagappa

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list. It became relevant when I was running the Arrows of War vignette, and the newly appointed Thane of Apple Lane wanted to properly outfit his militia and feed them for a couple of weeks on the march. 

On the provided list, sausages are 1 clack each, and so are loaves of bread.  Both keep well enough, and water is free if you have a waterskin.  It is worth noting that ciabatta style bread which is always dry and full of holes, has the best shelf life, and was originally created as a "siege bread".  Vegetables likely also cost around a clack.  I would suggest a 1 clack per basic meal rule.  I would also suggest that a days water weights 1 Enc and 3 meals weigh 1 Enc, thus 2 Enc for a days food and water.  You may want to bring a pack animal or 2.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is worth noting that ciabatta style bread which is always dry and full of holes, has the best shelf life, and was originally created as a "siege bread".

Similarly Dwarf Bread in Discworld is dry, full of holes and can be used as siege bread, but for a different reason. It also lasts forever, as people are willing to eat rocks and dirt rather then break a jaw biting into Dwarf Bread, which is why it is good in sieges ...

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the provided list, sausages are 1 clack each, and so are loaves of bread. 

I see these as being big sausages, like German or Polish one, rather than little piddly one like we get in England. And, yes, I am talking about sausages, keep your minds out of the gutter.

[JustAnotherVingan]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

p.175 under Alchemy: This skill must be used with specific raw materials. This skill is a cult secret of Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, and certain Lunar cults. Their temples have supplies of such substances and sell them to initiates, at a cost of 50 L per point of potential potency.

Likely they sell to outsiders at a good markup.  And that's pretty much in line with the old RQ2 prices for systemic poisons/antidotes, as well as acid.

That's actually about 10 times the price since 50L per point of potential potency is the ingredient cost in RQG. I think I might just stick to the RQ2 prices.  If you have the right lores you could gather your own materials.

[g33k]

Ordinary "gear" and "supplies" are one thing, and for those ... Price Lists FTW!

But even if we get solid "rules" (and <shudder> Price Lists) for alchemical ingredients, poisons, and antidotes, I will regard them as ....

more what I'd call guidelines...

 

How do you expect me to send my players questing for rare ingredients, when any fool can go buy them at the temple???

How do I keep the poisons and venoms of the Black Fang suitably terrifying, when the antidotes can be had for mere coin???

[GAZZA]

So we have costs for weapons and armour in the combat chapter, costs of poisons/antidotes/et. al. in the skills chapter (thank you for that @jajagappa), and everything else in the equipment and wealth section.

4 hours ago, g33k said:

How do you expect me to send my players questing for rare ingredients, when any fool can go buy them at the temple???

How do I keep the poisons and venoms of the Black Fang suitably terrifying, when the antidotes can be had for mere coin???

I mean, with the prices for mere ingredients 10 times what RQ2 had, I don't think there's going to be a rush of individuals plonking down 500L for POT 10 poison antidote supplies. Indeed quite the opposite, you might reasonably go "questing for rare ingredients" to sell them to the temple.

But in any case, I've never really understood this resistance to having prices for things. No GM forces the PCs to quest for bronze ore in order to get a spear made, or for carrots in order for soup. If you want poisons and antidotes to be rare, that's fine - but honestly poisons are extremely OP in RQ, and every second monster has some sort of venom, so stocking up on antidotes is about the only reasonable way to fight such things. And given that venomous abilities is on the standard Chaotic Features table, it's not like you can always know in advance when you're going to need them, so it makes sense to stock up.

[Austin]

21 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list.

I really like how the Year Zero Engine handles resource management, with a resource die for each thing you're tracking so you don't have to do bean-counting. I've been using it in my RQG game for food, water, torches, and arrows (I just assume folks can find "good enough" slingstones because we can't be bothered). It took a bit of adjustment, but I think once the players and I grokked the system that it works pretty well.

I don't remember what prices I set for different resource die sizes or improvements, but I can dig them up if anyone's interested in more info.

[Puckohue]

14 hours ago, Crel said:

I can dig them up

Please do  I too have lost interest in micromanagement.

[Austin]

On 5/8/2020 at 2:35 PM, Puckohue said:

Please do  I too have lost interest in micromanagement.

Here's an example of what I do. We're in Earth season 1626 now, but I'm not done with this season's market/campaign notes sheet yet.

Each adventurer has a spare inventory sheet, because the normal character sheet has nowhere near enough space to keep track of what you're carrying around. I made this in particular with a mind toward dungeon crawling, so it might not fit everyone's needs. You find something, you ask how much ENC it takes, and you note where you've put it. Core rulebook ENC is your body ENC, and you can hold more than that just trudging around in packs without significant penalties. If they were trying to lug something bigger and heavier around I'd just have to ad hoc what's going on.

The resource dice work pretty well. I took them from Free League/Fria Ligan's RPG Forbidden Lands, which uses the Year Zero Engine. Basically, each consumable you want to track has a die size, D6, D8, or D10. Whenever you use that consumable, you roll the die. On a 1 or a 2, it goes down to the next size. I note on my market sheet how much it costs to go up an increment, and my players occasionally spend time while traveling to refill their food and water (hunting, finding rivers, calling rain, etc.).

If you're looking to reduce bookkeeping further than I am, I figure you could just use the resources without worrying about ENC. We don't focus on what the adventurers are carrying around quite as much as these sheets imply. I mostly have them so that if they get lucky, I can force them to choose between carrying food and carrying silver.

Market sea 1626.doc supply sheet.doc

[Diana Probst]

On 5/7/2020 at 1:36 PM, Darius West said:

 It is worth noting that ciabatta style bread which is always dry and full of holes, has the best shelf life, and was originally created as a "siege bread". 

Ciabatta itself, however, was created in 1982, and is a case of baguette envy.

If you try to march with bread made of holes, what you end up with is bread made of crumbs.

[Diana Probst]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:24 AM, Arcadiagt5 said:

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list. It became relevant when I was running the Arrows of War vignette, and the newly appointed Thane of Apple Lane wanted to properly outfit his militia and feed them for a couple of weeks on the march. 

"Standard of living for free person, 60L."
Obviously, you tell your people to bring food.  If you're generous, you provide it.  If you're a thane, you spend more money - but you don't have to run these numbers.  It's already done.  250L for a thane, and look grateful to your overlord.

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

Ciabatta itself, however, was created in 1982, and is a case of baguette envy.

If you try to march with bread made of holes, what you end up with is bread made of crumbs.

It is based on an old Italian siege bread made with soda.  For obvious reasons, siege cuisine is often a bit of an acquired taste, but often serves as a way to experience unusual new foods.

[Puckohue]

On 5/13/2020 at 1:29 PM, Crel said:

this season's market/campaign notes sheet

Do you have a system for this or do you make it up as you go? How do you determine prices for trade goods? As an example, if they go to Boldhome with 50 ENC of salt, how would you determine the price of salt there?

[Austin]

9 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Do you have a system for this or do you make it up as you go? How do you determine prices for trade goods? As an example, if they go to Boldhome with 50 ENC of salt, how would you determine the price of salt there?

I mostly make it up as I go, loosely based on the "Equipment & Wealth" chapter of the core rulebook. Trade goods are something I just recently introduced, because they were making some long trips and the merchant wanted to do trading in the process. I've been trying to fluctuate the prices a little each time I make up a new market sheet, based largely on a subjective "well, that makes sense-ish to me."

Like, I would imagine salt's more expensive near Boldhome because it's far from the sea, or any other obvious-to-me salt pans (like the Dead Place, potentially?).

I come up with other marketplace prices based loosely on what's going on in the world around. For example, right now the cost of weapons & armor has gone up a little, because Argrath declared that he's going to march on Lunars in the spring. Harmast's alchemical items are based on a basic cost of 50L/POT for ingredients--which I'm not entirely sure makes sense for the world's economy myself, but haven't yet mucked with. The adventurers don't often buy either healing potions or antidotes as a consequence, although they're certainly wealthy enough to.

For Crassus's shop, I try to think up what seems interesting. Sometimes its stuff I've seen in other games, sometimes it's a money pit--like a trickster's detached penis--and sometimes it's something I've made up myself. Which then they don't buy, and make me sad . Oh, and there's always that damn expensive purple rock, too.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 5/7/2020 at 2:24 AM, Arcadiagt5 said:

In a similar vein I have been extremely amused recently by the lack of trail rations or equivalent in the price list. It became relevant when I was running the Arrows of War vignette, and the newly appointed Thane of Apple Lane wanted to properly outfit his militia and feed them for a couple of weeks on the march. 

You might explain to your party that being able to carry MREs or C-rations is not Bronze Age.  As recently as the 1800s military rations were a lot closer to raw groceries.  And civilians did have - and frequently used -  foods that kept well, very important in the days before refrigerators.  So the party on the trail can either eat bread and jerky, maybe cheese - or can bring a little pot and cook for themselves. 

You should expect that militia to cook for themselves if they are away from home more than two or three days.

Anyway, somewhere in the RQG books i ran across a price list for meals at inns.  You can eat on a couple of clacks a day in the big city if you are willing to eat like a poor man.  That's basically what it will cost to eat grain mush or pottage.  And it makes sense, if a Poor standard of living is about 15L a year, 3 L a season -  or 30 clacks  over 56 days - then raw groceries must be pretty cheap..

What keeps well? 

Whole grains, you can boil them.  You are familiar with oatmeal.  Rice of course.  But you can also make a mush out of barley, cracked wheat etc. and that - "pottage" when some peas and maybe some bacon was thrown in - was what people in Real Earth agricultural societies lived on in pre-industrial times.  http://cookit.e2bn.org/historycookbook/899-pottage-a-vegetable-soup.html

Bronze Age agricultural folks of modest means probably ate meat mostly when someone made a sacrifice.  Did you think they only went to the temple to pray?  The whole community ate.

Then there are flatbreads and hoecakes, roasted by the side of a fire.  Tortillas.    Risen bread is actually a step up because risen bread requires an oven.  Ovens are hard to improvise in the field but not impossible;  I've made one of wood, on advice - and it baked a pan of cornbread before it burned down..

Beans.  Peas. Black eyed peas.  All dried.   They are all legumes.  Boil them.

Raw vegetables;  Carrots, potatoes, squash etc.  Ever roast a pumpkin on the coals of a fire?  Try it some time.

Jerky.  Sausage if you are more prosperous.   Salted meat.  I can tell you how to salt it----

Hard cheese.

Hard bread.  i can tell you how to make hardtack.   You bake it twice to drive the moisture out.  Keep it dry and it will keep for 6 months, or longer - sometimes much longer.  And it's really not anywhere near as bad as its reputation, can be pretty good.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling! and added recipe

[soltakss]

I am watching the Arthdale Chronicles on Netflix, it is a Korean series about the interactions between the Neanthals, an Old Stone Age race of near-humans and New Stone Age humans, or rather it isn't, as the humans are Bronze Age, so it is a Bronze Age Court Politics series. One of the things about it is that it seems to have captured some Bronze Age stuff quite nicely. So, in a celebration, the rulers order that everyone be given several baskets of millet and sorghum, which seems like a Bronze Age thing to do. It also has The Great shrine, which is effectively a Great Temple staffed by Initiates and Priests, not just a couple of Priests, though, but dozens of them, again very Bronze Age and Gloranthan.

When the Great Shrine is attacked, it reminded me of our RQ2 Campaign where we would regularly attack a Chaos temple and kill everything we found.