Smoking Ruin Questions - Spoilers

[Sumath]

I'm re-reading The Smoking Ruin and making notes as I go, with the intent to run it in the near future, but I'm struggling with gaps and inconsistencies in the scenario:

SPOILERS:

On multiple occasions, the scenario instructs the GM to have Treya repeat the story of her grandmother's death at the hands of Tusk Riders, but I cannot find this story anywhere in the text. Indeed, Thinala's description says she died defending Terasarin. Okay, so her death is different to what Treya believes - but what story does Treya believe?

Treya sacrifices herself to bring back Thinala from the dead. But why does Thinala accept the sacrifice of her own granddaughter's life? And how does Thinala justify this to the adventurers afterwards?

Has anyone run this scenario and dealt with these issues?

[Arcadiagt5]

I have run the scenario and it's great but I had a lot of trouble with having to flick back and forth all the time. It's an extremely long adventure so being fully across it is highly recommended.

There's a chunk of it on p54 "After the Performance". Some of her (unfounded) speculations are tied into the descriptions of the Smoking Ruin on p55.

Now that I'm looking over it again, I don't think that there is a single section with Treya's story laid out in it. That's a flaw in the adventure IMO. The encounter with Four Steps on p61 provides a bit more info on what parts of her story are wrong.

Speaking of Four Steps, I'd try to emphasise the At. One. Ment sequence fairly heavily. Maybe play up how unusual this sort of thing is for a Dragonewt, my players talked about it for a bit but then mostly forgot about it. 

 

 

[Thaz]

To be honest I took a look at the Intro mech and looked at the already established history my players characters had with Lekia (having been through the Defense of Apple Lane, The Dragon of Thunder Hills and the Battle of Queens and just skipped that part. Three of the characters just got dreams of the place thanks to their initiation to Orgvale Summer. Her Brother built it and it was where her Mother and Father married after all.... 

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Three of the characters just got dreams of the place thanks to their initiation to Orgvale Summer. Her Brother built it and it was where her Mother and Father married after all.... 

I would have expected Vingkot's wedding to the daughters of Tada to have occurred on Grizzly Peak rather than in Korolstead. Or did you mean the wedding of Orgovalte's grandparents, Orlanth and Ernalda?

[Thaz]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would have expected Vingkot's wedding to the daughters of Tada to have occurred on Grizzly Peak rather than in Korolstead. Or did you mean the wedding of Orgovalte's grandparents, Orlanth and Ernalda?

I did indeed, cheers for the catch. 

[Sumath]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:12 AM, Arcadiagt5 said:

I have run the scenario and it's great but I had a lot of trouble with having to flick back and forth all the time

The whole thing needs a serious edit from Treya's point of view. It's obvious that the author has a clear idea about what Treya thinks and feels about her grandmother and why she is motivated to go to the Smoking Ruin, but unfortunately this didn't explicitly make it into the text of the scenario. 

[claycle]

Yeah, I am trying to prep the Smoking Ruin, and I find the adventure and writing very hard to "wrap my head around". First, there's the near complete absence of Thinala's story, though it should be well-known and oft-repeated by Treya. Yes, of course, as the GM, I should be able to spin something out, but it is just frustrating to read all the times Treya takes offense at some fact related by another NPC or flat-out gets the details wrong, and we are not presented with the details so we can fully-comprehend the backstory. The backstory, as it is, as well, is a confusing mish-mash. Trolls, Tuskers, Dragonewts, Korolvaltes, Orlanth and Ernalda's wedding spot, some confusing explanation of atonement, it's going to be a real challenge to bring this one home cohesively for the players. It's like almost too much is going on.

I, too, find the hooks lack-luster. As written, I can't imagine players really getting hooked into, and there's no discussion of how this might follow gently from Apple Lane and Thunder Hills from the GM book. So, I am using omens and dreams from Orgorvale as someone else mentioned to help motivate the players into action.

Overall, it might be a good adventure - but at the moment I really can't tell and I am having a real bitch of a time getting it under my belt before presenting it to players.

PS: I keep seeing Orgorvale mentioned as Ernalda's Granddaughter. She is Esrola's granddaughter. The Summer Wife was Esrola and Tada's child. I guess if you can conflate Esrola and Ernalda and be all god-learner-y...

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by claycle

[Puckohue]

Although I largely agree with the criticism my players enjoyed their trip to the Smoking Ruins. They are eager to go back to pick up on the loose threads.

We played on Roll20. I don't know if it helped that our sessions were short (two hours) so that I had time in between to read up, think, and decide how to present it.

My players immediately agreed to try to help the Ernalda priestess by going on this apparently exciting exploration mission. Their adventurers are very eager to help their community, and the players are eager to have fun, so if I give them a hook they most often bite. Having played through the GM Screen Pack stuff their adventurers had established relations with the VIPs and experienced that they can be adventurers that are part of their community.

[Arcadiagt5]

7 hours ago, Puckohue said:

Although I largely agree with the criticism my players enjoyed their trip to the Smoking Ruins.

My players enjoyed it as well. Especially the climactic battle at the end*. It was just really hard to run and I'm not sure I hit the right dramatic notes as GM. 

An update with Treya's story laid out in full really would help immensely. 

* I think I had 7 players for that session (FTF before COVID), and the battle started with the Ernaldan initiate stuck down the well trying to find the mirror whilst Varmargic and about twice their numbers in spirits & undead trolls charged towards them. Unfortunately for the spirits they elected to mass tackle the Assistant Shaman with the appallingly high Spirit Combat skill and he successfully (for values of success = 1 MP left at the end) took down all four.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 6/7/2020 at 10:34 AM, Sumath said:

Treya sacrifices herself to bring back Thinala from the dead. But why does Thinala accept the sacrifice of her own granddaughter's life? And how does Thinala justify this to the adventurers afterwards?

I agree here.  Why Thinala accepts the sacrifice is totally beyond me.  Not that we are likely to meet her again, but she's horrible.

For the record, my PC also swapped with her mother.  After about 10 seconds of thought, the mother broke down in tears and insisted that her daughter be returned to life.  The whole swap thing is, well, stupid as a plot hook, (I agree that omens and dreams would be better) and as an event that can permanently kill a PC.  The rest of the scenario is pretty darned good, so that was disappointing.

[Nick Brooke]

I enjoyed running Chris Klug's scenario for my two RuneQuest groups, and included eight pages of playtest notes as a bonus feature at the back of my scenario The Duel at Dangerford. If you're preparing to run the The Smoking Ruin for your group, you might find them helpful.

[Puckohue]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The whole swap thing

I never ”offered” the adventurers this.

As to Thinala, I played her as someone on a mission important enough to sacrifice Treya. When he was told, Asborn went to Queen’s Post to find out more.

[claycle]

OK, an update. We played through Act I, and I used dreams and omens from Orgorvale to nudge the players towards the call to adventure. Interestingly enough, it was the Odaylan who made the connection between Orgorvale and Korolstead (I was super-explicit with one dream, showing Orgorvale and Ulanin riding their horses from one "great city" across a river valley to "another great city" built by a man who looked "a lot like Orgorvale"). Sadly, the initiate of Orgorvale, who was getting the dreams, didn't make the connection...

 

After a whole hell of a lot of table setting (meeting Treya of Ezel, spending a good hour of pure role-play time with her as she got blitzed and fell [safely] into the somewhat puritanical arms of our Sun Domer), meeting Daravala, spending time with Hastur, and accepting the quest to find the Smoking Ruin, we are set up for Act II. I am somewhat amazed that in the intervening time the players are really jazzed about running into an army of troll ghosts for some morbid reason (no shamans, poor/average spirit combats across the board), but they say they can't wait to get to the ruin.

 

And the Orgorvale initiate offered up the idea that Treya shouldn't be trusted at all, that she was playing them for fools probably, clearly she was lying, couldn't possibly be a reliable companion, etc. The Odaylan player scoffed at this saying Treya was clearly trustworthy, though perhaps not in possession of all the facts and naive. If they needed to suspect anyone, Daravala deserved it, but he had already sussed out her motives pretty well (she wants to prove something to Ereneva). Our Odaylan is one smart people-person, even without Insight rolls. In an out-of-character aside, the Odaylan player even wondered aloud what was "broken" inside our Orgorvale initiate to make him immediately assign the darkest of motives to, literally, everyone.

 

So, I guess, to my surprise, Act I went well enough.

Edited July 17, 2020 by claycle

[claycle]

While prepping for our next session, I think the "Scratches Map" of the Ruin is not only useless to the players, but also wildly incorrect, at least as I try to study it and line it up with the actual map (which is also incorrect as best I can figure - regarding location 11/the eastern approach versus the text) - it's "twisted" in the middle so that the southern half is flipped. It just feels completely indecipherable and nonsensical for the players. Also, where are all the adornments on the Scratches Map mentioned in the text? The red blotches indicating spirits? The scratch Air rune? I am rather surprised at the disconnect.

 

 

[jajagappa]

26 minutes ago, claycle said:

I think the "Scratches Map" of the Ruin is not only useless to the players, but also wildly incorrect, at least as I try to study it and line it up with the actual map (which is also incorrect as best I can figure - regarding location 11/the eastern approach versus the text) - it's "twisted" in the middle so that the southern half is flipped. It just feels completely indecipherable and nonsensical for the players. 

As I'm currently a player in the Smoking Ruins scenario, I've not looked over the actual map and done any comparison.

But I can say that I and the other players in our group enjoyed puzzling over its possible meanings and how things might "fit" together.  Overall, I think we concluded that the lines extending off to the left and the top represented "call-outs", buildings or pieces that either overlay or underlay the current structure (particularly the Earth temple in the upper left).  How well it represents the actual place, we do not yet know.  Whether the white vs. red outlines signify any great distinction, we also don't know.  

From a player position, I don't think there's anything wrong with the ambiguity, and we all know that map's aren't really to be trusted.

[claycle]

Specifically, the large structure in the Earth temple portion displayed in the south-west on the scratches map is actually in the south-east. This is a pretty big "mistake". I just decided that it is an over-representation of the beast man monolith that is actually in that area.

 

[soltakss]

Sometimes, player handout maps are deliberately incorrect. Personally, I have nothing against that.

[claycle]

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Sometimes, player handout maps are deliberately incorrect. Personally, I have nothing against that.

Yes, but I am talking about obvious editing issues in production, not wild geese chases for players.

There are several references to marks on the scratches map that are not there. The GM's map itself has one notable error as well, based on what I can conclude from the text of the approaches (one approach does not go where the text says it goes).

My solution was to make a note on the GMs map to myself ("the map is incorrect, text describes this as being ------> over here") and adding the missing scratches to the scratches map as best I could (the identifiable Air rune for the Orlanth temple, the "red blotches" Scratches made for the spirit groups, etc), along with a couple not describe in the maps (some pale wavy lines) to hint at orientation with respect to the approaches.

Despite these criticisms, please don't get the wrong impression. Overall, I think it's a very good Gloranthan adventure, just a sub-normal written and edited one (A+ for background and individual set pieces and artwork overall, A for pure role-playing material, C for editing/organization) I am spending quite of lot of effort out of game to overcome my perceived problems with the text, which is really a surprise to me for a Chaosium product: anecdotally comparing how I feel trying to run this single scenario to how I feel running Mask of Nyarlathotep, for example, I feel hard-pressed to bring the Smoking Ruin into the player's view to enjoy.

The players seem to be enjoying it nonetheless and have had nothing but praise to say in post-game chat. And in the end, that's what matters to me. Are they having fun? Yes.

We spent last night doing the journey from Clearwine to the Ruin. They picked up a duck guide and horses in Duck Point and chose the quickest route through Beast Valley. This turned very interesting when it was revealed that none of the PCs had Tradetalk, so Orlbeak Windflapper their guide did double-duty as a translator with the encountered beast men, as well. To complicate matters further, our Babeestor Gor/Orgorvale initiate possessed both Hate(Beastmen) and Hate(Grazers), which made the three major encounters on the road so tense I literally had to pass a note to the Arroyan reminding him that he had role-playing reasons, myths, skills, runes, and passions to combat these sort of problems. Our Odaylan (Man-Beast) managed to connect with Clatterhoof (Beast-Man) in their mutual admiration of the Verhala:  the minotaur was so moved that he offered to come along (exciting the players very much) because surely they would all die if he didn't (scaring the players very much). The dread Hate(Beastman) passion reared up in the BG initiate and nearly ended in disaster. In the end, they admitted they couldn't have their axe maiden hating on the Odaylan's new Minotaur friend and left him behind in his grove with a promise to return and worship Kero Fin with him someday.

I used Nick Brooke's suggestion from DaDF to remind the Orlanthi initiate that he was not obligated to (being just an initiate) but he could greet the Grazer Sun Lord ritually if he wanted to appear particularly devout. The player had no idea about these deep bits of lore (he is our youngest player with zero Gloranthan experience) and was interested to do it, so I handed him some text on the greetings and we had a short riddle contest as well. The player (who I know has been struggling with the never-ending cavalcade of obscure Gloranthan references that float in the air of our game like dust motes) really perked up at that and enjoyed the spotlight for those minutes.

Everyone they met, from Duck Point on, beat the drum "Going to the Smoking Ruin? Are you insane?" and the dread really built up in the players. They made the connection from Hastur's backstory and the rumors gained along the way that Varmargic was still there, probably dead, probably a terrifying monster they were ill-equipped to handle, and probably somehow responsible for the "badness" going on. When they finally saw the cyclopean walls of the ruin one of them said "Was everyone a giant in the godtime ?" To which I gleefully answered "The world was bigger then. You live in a diminished world now."

When they made it to within sight of the walls when I said "we're stopping now because just getting into the place is going to be worth a session itself." They set up camp in the valley below and we will pick up again in 3 weeks (life intervenes). I am relieved, because I feel I need to really prep the remainder of the adventure hard and the ample time will make this less a chore.

Discord chat was lively with speculation afterwards, so they are having fun.

EDIT: I was able to take a little license with Andretta knowing a little bit about internal Ernaldan politics at important temples and impart a little of the political intrigue happening back at Clearwine between Ereneva and Daravala. Just a sprinkling "Oh, yes, I have heard of Daravala Chan. She has quite a reputation..."

Edited July 19, 2020 by claycle