Crown Test for a Queen

[Goldennose]

I would like to know more about Crown Tests in general, but even more for a future queen of Maboder Tribe. What happens in crown test? Do I understand correctly that Maboder Queen should be Ernalda Rex, not Orlanth Rex? Do both qualify?

Leika undertook an old‑fashioned journey to destroy Chaos in its own lair at Snakepipe Hollow. She succeeded a harrowing invasion of a mad poet's test, and was acclaimed Queen by her joyous people, without any preliminary legal preparation, despite the other rivals. What if there are rivals?

[Sir_Godspeed]

The language is a bit confusing, because what is rendered as "queen" in English might actually be chief or king in "Orlanthi". 

As far as I understand it, women can be dedicated to Orlanth or Vinga and from there Orlanth Rex, and will therefore gain the accoutrements of a Storm King/Chief. A woman acting in this capacity emulates Orlanth, not Ernalda. She is functionally identical to a male storm chief.

The Queen/Priestess role a woman (or man/Nandan) has when emulating Ernalda is a different socio-religious leadership role. If I wanted to be *really* generalizing, I'd say the Orlanth role is more of a warlord, while the Ernalda role is more of a treasurer, both engaging in judge-like activities, iirc.

Whether this applies to Leika specifically, I don't know.

(Sorry if this was confusing, there's a thread further back where Jeff lists Glorantha titles and he went into some detail about what the different English titles entails in-universe. It's not always what you think.)

Edited June 29, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Goldennose]

Okey. So not even Orendara is actually "King", but a Queen of Earth Temple?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Caras

[metcalph]

17 hours ago, Caras said:

I would like to know more about Crown Tests in general, but even more for a future queen of Maboder Tribe. What happens in crown test? Do I understand correctly that Maboder Queen should be Ernalda Rex, not Orlanth Rex? Do both qualify?

Not necessarily.  Leika for instance is a Vingan who rules in the name of Orlanth Rex (cf Gamemaster Screen Pack p22),  Since the Malani are warlike, they would not be ruled by Ernaldan Queens.

17 hours ago, Caras said:

Leika undertook an old‑fashioned journey to destroy Chaos in its own lair at Snakepipe Hollow. She succeeded a harrowing invasion of a mad poet's test, and was acclaimed Queen by her joyous people, without any preliminary legal preparation, despite the other rivals. What if there are rivals?

Leika won against her rivals because her quest was the most spectacular.

[Leingod]

Basically, there are two types of sovereignty over a tribe: The Storm way and the Earth way. Do you rule in the manner of Orlanth, or in the manner of Ernalda? The likes of Leika or Kallyr are vingans, and so you could call them "female kings," in the sense that they use the rites of Orlanth Rex and rule in that fashion, not those of Ernalda/Orendana the Earth Queen.

If the prospective Maboder queen is an initiate or devotee of Ernalda rather than Orlanth or Vinga, then she would take what are called the "Orendanae Rites." We don't actually know what exactly they entail; at most we can guess that it's in some way inspired from the story of Orendara told in Esrolia: The Land of 10,000 Goddesses, though almost certainly not so anti-Orlanth Rex among the Sartarites:

Quote

Once Orlanth challenged the right of Ernalda to command her subjects. 

“Only men can rule,” he said.

“There is always another way,” said Ernalda, and went off alone. Alone in the bush, she meditated upon the power of conception, and in that manner became pregnant. She gave birth to a beautiful daughter who she named Orendara. On her neck shone a bright torque.  People call her the “Virgin-Conceived Queen.” 

When she was named Orendar rose and went to where some  people  were  discussing  what  to  do.  They  were arguing, and several of the men were already brandishing weapons at each other. Orendara went among the women and spoke to them, and then them to the center of the assembly circle.

“There is always another way,’ she said, “And I will tell you what they are.” Even  the  men  were  impressed  and  listened,  and afterwards they also agreed that Orendara was not only as good a leader as Orlanth, but that she also had more right to rule than he did, for she was pure sovereignty, born pure of the goddess of Creation, while Orlanth was only Her bed-husband. 

After that the wise people had Queens, not kings.  Orendara was killed during the Gods War and buried in the Dead Point, in Esrolia. The goose women went to the grave and performed the proper meditation, and Orendara was born again. Thus the Grandmothers kept their people together, even in hiding, during the evil times.

Presumably you undertake some kind of test to prove your right to rule by the inheritance of sovereignty from the Earth, and likely not by (direct) violent means (like how an Orlanthi candidate would just go out and win a victory against some enemy) but by doing some service like making an enemy into an ally or getting your followers to put aside some harmful feud or something like that.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Leingod

[Goldennose]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Since the Malani are warlike, they would not be ruled by Ernaldan Queens

Maboder is not Malani Tribe. Maboder is matriarcal Tribe as I have understood. Tribe that was wiped out by Telmori and eventually Jomes Hostralos. Now, in our campaign this tribe is being raised back by Daughters of Mabodh.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Leika won against her rivals because her quest was the most spectacular.

But there was later a rival, who even became the king of Colymar, Kangharl Blackmoor. What did he do to gain kingdom of Colymar. An he wasn´t even Orlanth Rex, but Doburdan.

[Goldennose]

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Presumably you undertake some kind of test to prove your right to rule by the inheritance of sovereignty from the Earth, and likely not by (direct) violent means (like how an Orlanthi candidate would just go out and win a victory against some enemy) but by doing some service like making an enemy into an ally or getting your followers to put aside some harmful feud or something like that.

Thanks. Will do that. Getting some last Tribal Regalias back? And making peace with Red Cow.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Caras

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Caras said:

Maboder is not Malani Tribe. Maboder is matriarcal Tribe as I have understood. Tribe that was wiped out by Telmori and eventually Jomes Hostralos. Now, in our campaign this tribe is being raised back by Daughters of Mabodh.

Ah, in that case, the reconstructers of the tribe have free reign to reinterpret the tribal constitution so-to-speak.

1 minute ago, Caras said:

But there was later a rival, who even became the king of Colymar, Kangharl Blackmoor. What did he do to gain kingdom of Colymar. An he wasn´t even Orlanth Rex, but Doburdan.

Doburdon was overpromoted as a cult in the hero wars period, and it's not mentioned in connection with Kangharl in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.  He is king because the tribe has acclaimed him as such.  Now his avoidance of traditional magics has caused some unrest and dissent within the tribe (cf Anmangarn Clan) but he still governs because he has the might of the Red Moon behind him.

[Crel]

33 minutes ago, Caras said:

What did he do to gain kingdom of Colymar.

From the Gamemaster Adventures book for RuneQuest, pages 10-12:

Quote

King Kallai Rockbuster led the Colymar in rebellion against the Lunar Empire in 1613 as part of what became known as Starbrow’s Rebellion and sent a thousand tribesmen led by his son Kangharl “Blackmoor” to defend the Hill of Orlanth Victorious. Although initially successful, the imperial counter-attack by Fazzur Wideread crushed the rebellion. After the rebellion was defeated, the Empire exiled King Kallai and his son, and stripped the Colymar of three clans as punishment. Kallai’s kinswoman Leika Ballista became the next tribal king, but was exiled by the Lunars in 1615, after only two years of rule. Leika refused to abdicate and left for Whitewall with the Black Spear.

Surprisingly, the Empire recognized Kangharl “Blackmoor” as the new tribal king. For ten years, King Blackmoor led the tribe in alliance with the Lunar Empire, although the Anmangarn clan never acknowledged him as king. Kangharl overcame his lack of religious legitimacy with the privileges and benefits of Lunar client status, and the Seven Mothers cult was permitted to operate in Colymar territory. However, the usurper was devoured by the Brown Dragon at the Dragonrise in 1625, along with the Lunar Army and most of the Provincial religious leadership. Queen Leika returned to Clearwine, along with many exiles and adventurers, and reclaimed kingship of the tribe. Many prominent pro-Lunar figures have been exiled (those that were not devoured during the Dragonrise) and the Lunar manor in the Nymie Vale was burned to the ground.

I also remember a story about how at a tribal moot Leika was challenged to bring forth the king's torc, to show her right to rule, and that she couldn't do it. But I'm not sure where I read that, and I'm not sure whether or not that's canonical, fan-written, or in some apocryphal source like the Stafford Library. If that's accurate, presumably the Lunars (or a trickster) took it, then instigated Kangharl to make that claim so that she wouldn't have a claim to the kingship.

[Goldennose]

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Ah, in that case, the reconstructers of the tribe have free reign to reinterpret the tribal constitution so-to-speak.

Doburdon was overpromoted as a cult in the hero wars period, and it's not mentioned in connection with Kangharl in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.  He is king because the tribe has acclaimed him as such.  Now his avoidance of traditional magics has caused some unrest and dissent within the tribe (cf Anmangarn Clan) but he still governs because he has the might of the Red Moon behind him.

I remenberred incorrecly I see. I have always thought that he worshipped same as his kinsman Darsten Black-Oak. But it doesn´t say so. We have played a lot with this wrong knowledge.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Caras

[Puckohue]

7 hours ago, Crel said:

a story about how at a tribal moot Leika was challenged to bring forth the king's torc

This is how her exile was explained to me when I asked about it here. Her failure gave her rivals what they needed to get rid of her.

[Bohemond]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

From the Gamemaster Adventures book for RuneQuest, pages 10-12:

I also remember a story about how at a tribal moot Leika was challenged to bring forth the king's torc, to show her right to rule, and that she couldn't do it. But I'm not sure where I read that, and I'm not sure whether or not that's canonical, fan-written, or in some apocryphal source like the Stafford Library. If that's accurate, presumably the Lunars (or a trickster) took it, then instigated Kangharl to make that claim so that she wouldn't have a claim to the kingship.

Yeah, I ran across that too, although I can't remember where. In my version of the Orlmarth campaign, which started several years before 1618 to help players learn the game world, Leika became queen and undertook a raid into Snakepipe Hollow, but in her absence the Lunars arranged for the Armring of Friendship to be stolen. When Leika returned, she was challenged to display the Armring and had to admit that she couldn't. The tribal Lawspeaker then reluctantly ruled that by failing to safeguard part of the tribal regalia, she had harmed the tribe and was no longer qualified to be queen. That gave Kangharl the opening he needed to declare that he would be king instead. So that was my attempt to make a coherent narrative of the various details about Leika and Kangharl. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 hours ago, Crel said:

I also remember a story about how at a tribal moot Leika was challenged to bring forth the king's torc, to show her right to rule, and that she couldn't do it

Too bad she didn't have the Three Musketeers (a.k.a. some player characters) to retrieve it from the Earl of Buckingham.  Good idea for a scenario, eh?

Edited June 30, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, I ran across that too, although I can't remember where.

SKoH p.276 The Colymar Kinstrife:

"One rival was her own kinsman Kangharl, formerly the Colymar warleader during Starbrow’s Rebellion and who led the fight against the Lunars at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious. After years of fighting against the Lunars he finally succumbed to Lunar sorcery and embraced the Lunar Way to further his ambitions. At the tribal assembly, Kangharl challenged Leika to produce the Ring of Command (a great golden torc woven from seven strands of gold twisted together and part of the tribal regalia) but she could not do so. Kangharl had the assembly exile Leika and proclaim him tribal king."

[Bohemond]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Too bad she didn't have the Three Musketeers (a.k.a. some player characters) to retrieve it from the Earl of Buckingham.  Good idea for a scenario, eh?

Yes--my players have made a couple half-hearted attempts to find out where it might be. The downside here is that if they succeed, it could send the campaign seriously out of canon (which is not automatically a bad thing, but it does require rethinking a lot of later events).

[Goldennose]

8 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Yes--my players have made a couple half-hearted attempts to find out where it might be. The downside here is that if they succeed, it could send the campaign seriously out of canon (which is not automatically a bad thing, but it does require rethinking a lot of later events).

This is many times the problem. In my campaign too. Players are making Maboder rise, but I don´t as GM have any source that says, what there is canonically happening. What canonically happens after Dragonrise? What happen to Wulfsland in canonical future. I do like to keep things in order that canon is as much as possible untouched.

[HeartQuintessence]

On 6/30/2020 at 3:03 AM, Leingod said:

Basically, there are two types of sovereignty over a tribe: The Storm way and the Earth way. Do you rule in the manner of Orlanth, or in the manner of Ernalda? The likes of Leika or Kallyr are vingans, and so you could call them "female kings," in the sense that they use the rites of Orlanth Rex and rule in that fashion, not those of Ernalda/Orendana the Earth Queen.

If the prospective Maboder queen is an initiate or devotee of Ernalda rather than Orlanth or Vinga, then she would take what are called the "Orendanae Rites." We don't actually know what exactly they entail; at most we can guess that it's in some way inspired from the story of Orendara told in Esrolia: The Land of 10,000 Goddesses, though almost certainly not so anti-Orlanth Rex among the Sartarites:

Presumably you undertake some kind of test to prove your right to rule by the inheritance of sovereignty from the Earth, and likely not by (direct) violent means (like how an Orlanthi candidate would just go out and win a victory against some enemy) but by doing some service like making an enemy into an ally or getting your followers to put aside some harmful feud or something like that.

Reading about the this question of Queens, does me make think about how groups other than the Orlanthi, deal with the female rulers, now. Dara Happa is unlike to have them (since the Ten TEsts of Kings requires a male body apparently?). The Lunar Empire probably does (though with Moonson as Emperor we'll never have a MoonDaughter... running the show since he just.. body steals?

 

But this is a good point, that there are other alternatives.

[Sir_Godspeed]

21 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

The Lunar Empire probably does (though with Moonson as Emperor we'll never have a MoonDaughter... running the show since he just.. body steals?

 

Shame we never got the Emperor taking a female Mask. That would've been fun. But maybe there's something cosmic balance stuff what with the Great Sister and all. (But then maybe the Emperor taking a female body would still count as a man ritualistically and socially).

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

though with Moonson as Emperor we'll never have a MoonDaughter

We have Great Sister.

"Great Sister is called the Red Emperor’s Twin, even though they were born far apart from each other. In all aspects she mirrors her brother to create Balance in the Lunar Empire."