Encumbrance

[Lloyd Dupont]

OK, I have to admit this is video from a D&D guy.. 😕 
But this is a topic this is dear to me, as in as I am still trying to figure out a way to use it...

 

 

[Questbird]

The video talks about tracking items instead of pounds as a way of managing encumbrance in a playable way.

We have chatted about the same, right here on this forum -- even you @Lloyd Dupont 😄. In the thread below I mentioned such a system, inspired by those old gamebooks, Dragon Warriors and a sci-fi one called Shadows over Sol.

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

Oops missed that.... like it too ^^

At any rate... I am thinking to go with a very small number of item slots... (like 5?) with the caveat that a 1 backpack can contain a big number of item slot itself  

[Kloster]

SJG's Car Wars gave every one 6 Grenade Equivalent, that is 6 1 handed item with a weight and encumbrance roughly equivalent to 1 hand grenade.

[Questbird]

I think it is a good way to go. No one in real life measures how many kilos of gear they are carrying, not even army types who are expected to carry a whole lot without complaint.

[hix]

1 hour ago, Questbird said:

No one in real life measures how many kilos of gear they are carrying

You'd be suprised.

[Warframe44]

On 8/24/2020 at 7:39 PM, Questbird said:

I think it is a good way to go. No one in real life measures how many kilos of gear they are carrying, not even army types who are expected to carry a whole lot without complaint.

I believe they do. Half a kilo over a long march makes all the difference  

[g33k]

32 minutes ago, Warframe44 said:

I believe they do. Half a kilo over a long march makes all the difference  

+1

Backpackers who take long trips into the backcountry regularly obsess over shaving off a few ounces here or there, knowing that enough of those can begin adding up to a LOT of weight.  And that in turn can make a big difference in miles per day.

[Warframe44]

So here’s what I’ve been working out as a way to standardize STR vs SIZ, and carrying capacity. This is part of a project and I needed something definitive, that also used certain core BRP benchmarks

I’ve made several assumptions and derived everything from those

• first, everything is based on metric values
• ive defaulted to a single number weight value provided in the BGB and Basic GM to make the increments easier to calculate
• 1 SIZ is =2^(SIZ/8)*25 in kg. (Edit: TY Atgxtg!)
• weight therefore increases 8 times every 24 SIZ, therefore “Height” doubles at the same pace (the cube square law)
• a 2m tall character has SIZ 17 per the BGB, and weighs 109kg
• I defer to the BGB on values under 25 and use formulae to plot the rest
• standardize character weight and object weight tables into one table, derived from Basic GM

Following those assumptions, a SIZ 41 object is 4m “tall” and weighs 872kg

Further, a SIZ 89 character is 16m tall and weighs 55800kg. Intermediate values are all calculated across the table. Extended values beyond 88 are taken from Basic GM

I’ll upload the SS separately (Edit - Uploaded, below)  I’ve run the values all the way to 200.

I initially tried to build a consistent table using Giants as a template... 192 SIZ and 16m tall max. Looking at the weight tables, this makes no sense and I felt like chewing my hands off after dorking with it for too long.

 

Assuming we’ve established a hard value for weight and mass (?) and extrapolated height in a logical consistent manner, we can look at carrying stuff

using the STR - 10 = 100% lifting rule on the resistance table, I propose using this as a base weight to which the character can be burdened without suffering effect (nothing new here)

so, a STR 20 character would have a base Carrying Capacity of 59 kg, or SIZ 10

we can apply tiers now. Using the same framework I propose the following benchmarks. Values are derived from the above 20 str vs 10 siz

str-5 in SIZ at 75%, 92kg

str = SIZ at 50%, 141kg

str +5 in SIZ at 25%, 218 kg

str + 10 in SIZ at 0% 336 kg

what we do next with those numbers, integrate them back into the game, I’m not sure how although I have ideas. Fatigue and ENC come into play, as does *effect*...when you extend yourself,  what does a failed roll on the Resistance Table mean in game terms?

Logically, the amount of failure needs to be assessed and incorporated into the final result

I’m incorporating a Brawn skill that will affect some of these parameters in some fashion. Details are tbd but here's what I'm thinking as a start... Note that these numbers are pounds, which I use occasionally bcz I'm old.

Feats of Strength	USE RESISTANCE TABLE
STR 20 vs SIZ 10 (130lb) object		30 vs 20	60 vs 50	Action Steps	Fatigue	Other Effects
STR – 10 in SIZ = 100%	130	311	4195	Carry and Move	0
STR – 5 in SIZ = 75%	203	481	6468	Carry and Walk	X 1
STR = SIZ = 50%	311	741	9976	Lift and Walk Slowly	X 2
STR + 5 in SIZ = 25%	481	1144	15386	Heave	X 3
STR + 10 in SIZ = 0%	741	1764	23728	Hold	X 4
Critical Success	Up Two Steps
Special Success	Up one step
Success	Completes Action
Failure	Fails Action
Special Failure	Fails Action	2 x Fatigue
Critical Failure	Fails Action	4 x Fatigue	Injury
Characters may add Brawn / 10 to their effective STR when using the Resistance Table

In an actual gaming sense, i don't see this as slowing down play. It doesn't address a fatigue system, or even an encumbrance system. It's just a lifting ruleset. That's next, after all this gets sorted.

 

SIZ Weight Height ENC.ods

Edited October 29, 2020 by Warframe44

[Lloyd Dupont]

I am finally doing the equipment list...
I was thinking to go equipment slots (one has only 2 arms!) and have a carry capacity for backpack... (with malus to all dex/str/physical actions)

 

you gave me some fatigue and movement idea now as well, yeah, cheers!  

[Warframe44]

Nice! Slots is what I'm leaning toward too, with the idea that one slot is approximately 1 kg. Dimensional weight might be quite different and increase from there.

Your backpack idea is a good one... max 35 slots/kg for example... really good backpacks, like the ones hardcore hikers wear, or even tac harnesses SWAT or armed forces guys might wear, could arguably give you free slots, or reduced malus (nice 👍) to your actions

Edit: Please feel free to share that list

Edited October 29, 2020 by Warframe44

[Lloyd Dupont]

I am doing a Master of Orion ruleset for all tech levels... it's slow going...  But yeah I will definitely share!
I have most on my draft idea.. 
Except no idea yet on drug, drones and vehicles list.... 

For slot I will give them a size each.... (like arm: 3, but little belt thingy: 0.5 each) so I'll keep the enc and half enc values... 
only 1 item per slot of size less than the value...

[weasel fierce]

Something that will never cease to amaze me is that RPG's will try to numerically quantify almost everything from "Charisma" to "willpower" but things that are actually numerically quantified (like money and weight) we'll try to abstract away

 

[Warframe44]

4 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

Something that will never cease to amaze me is that RPG's will try to numerically quantify almost everything from "Charisma" to "willpower" but things that are actually numerically quantified (like money and weight) we'll try to abstract away

nicely said

[Lloyd Dupont]

4 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

Something that will never cease to amaze me is that RPG's will try to numerically quantify almost everything from "Charisma" to "willpower" but things that are actually numerically quantified (like money and weight) we'll try to abstract away

 

There is some rationale to it though... we try to limit ourselves to some small and positive integer numbers!

Edited October 29, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[weasel fierce]

25 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

There is some rationale to it though... we try to limit ourselves to some small and positive integer numbers!

Hang on, calculating the weight of individual coins for realism!

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

Hang on, calculating the weight of individual coins for realism!

But unless you have some idea of the real weight of coins you'll end up with ridiculous results. Look at old D&D and AD&D with it's 1.6 ounce coins and 25 pound greatswords. "Eye balling it" only really holds up if people know enough about the subject to make a decent estimate.

8 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

Something that will never cease to amaze me is that RPG's will try to numerically quantify almost everything from "Charisma" to "willpower" but things that are actually numerically quantified (like money and weight) we'll try to abstract away

I think that's because in general we need help when administer the effects of abstract concepts in game terms. For example, being able to talk your way out of a speeding ticket or convincing the doorman that you should be let into the nightclub.

With things that we have real data for, we don't have to deal with abstracts and so it becomes much easier to administer in game. For instance, can a sportscar hold 50 gallons in it fuel tank, or can 6 people fit into an elevator. That makes it much easier for people to handle "off the cuff" without the need for game rules. 

 

[Questbird]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:29 AM, Warframe44 said:

I believe they do. Half a kilo over a long march makes all the difference  

 

 

Ok, I stand corrected. However it's still a pain to do so in RPGs. Players don't want to because there are only penalties to be had for carrying too much. And it's a lot of extra work for GMs to monitor it, so they don't either. Items accumulate on player's sheets and before you know it they are waltzing around with tons of stuff. And most of the time it doesn't really matter anyway.

I do think it's funny that most RPGs regard coins as having negligible weight too.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Questbird

[Warframe44]

1 hour ago, Questbird said:

it's still a pain to do so in RPGs. Players don't want to because there are only penalties to be had for carrying too much. And it's a lot of extra work for GMs to monitor it, so they don't either. Items accumulate on player's sheets and before you know it they are waltzing around with tons of stuff. And most of the time it doesn't really matter anyway.

I don't want them to be tracking pencils and empty flasks. I don't care. That's no fun! Adding spreadsheets to the mix though, that changes everything. There's the list of items a PC feels is too important to give up. I, as a GM, now have a system to penalize their packrat behavior, If it's not too heavy, it may be too bulky to carry 200 k on foot (an ENC system must allow for weight and bulk). It holds players and characters to a higher standard of realistic action because what you have on your person does matter. This tells me when the PCs are holding too much dross to carry weapons, armor, tools of their trade, important stuff. I'm not sure how using a system that holds them to account encourages hoarding.

That and BRP it the most slippery d*mn system when it comes to figuring out a basic question like how much can I carry? lol

For my part I think it's more elegant to derive that value using the Resistance Table, as that's one of the reasons it's there. It's an interesting mechanic that should be used where possible

Edited October 30, 2020 by Warframe44

[Baron Wulfraed]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But unless you have some idea of the real weight of coins you'll end up with ridiculous results. Look at old D&D and AD&D with it's 1.6 ounce coins and 25 pound greatswords. "Eye balling it" only really holds up if people know enough about the subject to make a decent estimate.

The weapon weights were ridiculous... One pound per foot of sword, for steel, is reasonable -- and may even allow for a scabbard, since decent fullers on the blade reduces a lot of blade weight.

US silver dollars of the 1800s tend to run 27 gram, which comes to about 0.86 ounce Troy -- so that AD&D 1.6 ounce (presume Troy) is only double weight. 17 of them make an avoirdupois pound (so 60 of them weigh as much as one of the larger broadswords). Modern "$1" silver eagles (bullion "coins", not used as money) are 1 ounce Troy

US Double Eagle ($20 Gold) are 33.4 grams, 1.07 ounce Troy. Modern "$50" gold bullion are 1 ounce Troy.  The "$100" platinum is 1 ounce Troy.

Copper large cents (pennies) varied from 13 to 10 grams, so yes -- it would take four or five of them to make one AD&D coin 🤑

[Atgxtg]

16 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The weapon weights were ridiculous... One pound per foot of sword, for steel, is reasonable -- and may even allow for a scabbard, since decent fullers on the blade reduces a lot of blade weight.

Indeed. But back then most people didn't know any better, and tended to overestimate. It was also much harder to get good data, and most sources that were available tended to be based more upon Victorian theories and guesstimates. And this was all for a game and no one really expected it to be relevant in a few years time. 

16 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

US silver dollars of the 1800s tend to run 27 gram, which comes to about 0.86 ounce Troy -- so that AD&D 1.6 ounce (presume Troy) is only double weight. 17 of them make an avoirdupois pound (so 60 of them weigh as much as one of the larger broadswords). Modern "$1" silver eagles (bullion "coins", not used as money) are 1 ounce Troy

 US Double Eagle ($20 Gold) are 33.4 grams, 1.07 ounce Troy. Modern "$50" gold bullion are 1 ounce Troy.  The "$100" platinum is 1 ounce Troy.

Copper large cents (pennies) varied from 13 to 10 grams, so yes -- it would take four or five of them to make one AD&D coin 🤑

Ancient and medieval coins tended to be much smaller and lighter, than 19th century coins. The quarter ounce gold piece is much more appropriate, and one of the things that D&D improved upon with the 50 coins to 1 pound ratio.

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Ancient and medieval coins tended to be much smaller and lighter, than 19th century coins. The quarter ounce gold piece is much more appropriate, and one of the things that D&D improved upon with the 50 coins to 1 pound ratio.

 

I tend to think in US coinage as the RQ exchange rate of:

1 W (gold) => 20 L (silver); 1 L => 10 C (copper)

maps nicely to:

1 Double Eagle ($20 gold) => 20 Dollars ($1 silver); $1 => 10 Dimes (granted, old dimes were silver -- modern ones are 3/4 copper, 1/4 nickel).

[weasel fierce]

The Swedish Drakar och Demoner (BRP derivative) assigned Encumbrance points to items which corresponded roughly to 3 kilo's but with larger objects often rounded up a bit (so weapons typically "weighed" a bit more than they ought to to account for bulk).

In the basic rules, you could carry ENC equal to your STR. The expert rules added penalties for heavier loads. 
If anyone is interested, I can write up a few typical weapons and the penalty table.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

If anyone is interested, I can write up a few typical weapons and the penalty table.

Please do.

[weasel fierce]

Okay, so for the uninitiated, Drakar och Demoner (DoD) was a derivative of Chaosiums Magicworld which basically became the norm for roleplaying games in Sweden in the 80's. With the "Expert" expansion it moved to a D20 but remained very BRP-adjacent. If you ever wondered why Trudvang and the original Kult and Symbaroum are all D20 roll-unders, there you have it. 

Anyways, encumbrance.
First, ENC values for a few assorted weapons. As mentioned, 1 ENC is meant to be roughly 3 kilo but weapons are rounded up quite a bit to account for "bulk" in carrying them. 

Most standard swords, maces etc. are 1 ENC, an axe, spear, bastard sword 2 ENC, pole weapons 3 ENC. 
Armor uses a SIZ table similar to RQ3, but for a SIZ 12 human, you'd find armor "weighing"  f.x.
1.5 ENC for studded leather greaves / vambraces.
1 ENC for a roman helmet.
4 ENC for a mail shirt
2.5 ENC for metal chest plate.
6 ENC for a mail hauberk.

And so on.

In the basic rules, you can carry ENC equal to STR and thats it. No penalties, you just can't carry any more. So a STR 12 human could have a mail shirt, broadsword and helmet and still have 5 ENC left for torches, backpack, packed lunches and rubber ducky.

Expert added a "proper" encumbrance table.
Carrying up to 0.5 x STR = no penalties.
Carrying up to 1 x STR = -20% movement speed, -1 DEX 
Carrying up to 1.5 x STR = -40% speed, -3 DEX 
Carrying up to 2 x STR = -60% speed, -7 DEX (and dex skills are impossible).

The DEX penalty is applied to DEX based skills (D20 roll under, so -3 is equal to a -15% in BRP)


I hope that helps? It always seemed to be a decent balance because to an extent you can count "things" without being as simplistic as some slot systems. 

If desired, I can dig out more numbers and such.