Transform Self - Guidance on Stats, e.g. Shadowcat

[Arcadiagt5]

I am for story reasons giving a Yinkin initiate PC Transform Self based on the Telmori spell in the Bestiary. But there's no real guidance there as to what the physical/mental characteristics look like post the transformation. 

Should I just keep the mental characteristics (INT/POW/CHA) and roll up a set of physical characteristics for a "normal" shadowcat?

Or would some/all physical characteristics carry across unchanged as well? (The latter could be hilarious for SIZ as it makes for a big Shadowcat). 

What do people think the MGF ruling should be? 

[Stephen L]

I would base it on the character’s original, but increase Dex and Con, but reduce Siz and Str, to reflect a shadowcat’s relative characteristics strengths/weaknesses.  Perhaps +6, +3, -6 ,- 3 respectively, but that’s going to depend what works in your campaign.

However, rolling up shadow cat characteristics that are completely different to the human form could be fun.

Beware of small characters.  The adventurers in my campaign have discovered that the low Siz duck can be easily flown (or sylph carried) to places he really doesn't belong.  Now they tend to do that in lieu of a plan.  "Right, cast fly on Pengy, now what guys?"

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Should I just keep the mental characteristics (INT/POW/CHA) and roll up a set of physical characteristics for a "normal" shadowcat?

Or would some/all physical characteristics carry across unchanged as well? (The latter could be hilarious for SIZ as it makes for a big Shadowcat). 

I would halve SIZ and multiply DEX by 1.5. Keep the other Characteristics the same.

5 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

What do people think the MGF ruling should be? 

Double SIZ as well - Battle Cat!

[Joerg]

The Telmori (or general Hsunchen) transform body magics turns the user into a divine version of the totemic beast.

(I for one would like to see an affordable magic which will turn a hsunchen person into the mundane beast form of the totemic beast..)

Since we are talking about a divine version of the beast, I don't see why you would go with the intellectual stats of an ordinary shadowcat. There may be human individuals who may profit in intellectual capacity if they re-rolled INT as a shadowcat (except that RQG beasts don't have that stat, not even as "fixed INT" as would be found in RQ3).

Herding Alynxes big enough to intimidate cattle probably aren't very far from the human size range.

[French Desperate WindChild]

i would follow the same process than Odayla :

2 spells, both dedicated to one characteristic, no change for the rest, and a third (already described for Yinkin : claws ) for the attack style. So one for size because it transform the human into a shadowcat, and one maybe for dex, which seems to be the "typical" shadowcat characteristic

but this rule is dangerous. If an average bear fights against an average shadowcat (animals), the bear probably wins. What with both average humans, one transformed into bear the other into shadowcat ? seems the shadow catwoman to be the winner, doesn't she ?

 

[Arcadiagt5]

9 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I would base it on the character’s original, but increase Dex and Con, but reduce Siz and Str, to reflect a shadowcat’s relative characteristics strengths/weaknesses.  Perhaps +6, +3, -6 ,- 3 respectively, but that’s going to depend what works in your campaign.

However, rolling up shadow cat characteristics that are completely different to the human form could be fun.

Beware of small characters.  The adventurers in my campaign have discovered that the low Siz duck can be easily flown (or sylph carried) to places he really doesn't belong.  Now they tend to do that in lieu of a plan.  "Right, cast fly on Pengy, now what guys?"

The +6/+3/-6/-3 is an interesting suggestion. Although it would still mean a SIZ10 Shadowcat which is enormous. Thanks.

Warning about small characters duly noted. Although none of my Orlanthi have Flight (yet)

Then again several have Hippogriffs... 🤣

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would halve SIZ and multiply DEX by 1.5. Keep the other Characteristics the same.

Double SIZ as well - Battle Cat!

Also an interesting suggestion, and one I’ll look at. Thanks.

Ahh...no... I don’t think I'll double the SIZ though. Shudders at the thought of a Shadowcat with a 2D6 damage bonus and the ability to learn from experience...

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i would follow the same process than Odayla :

2 spells, both dedicated to one characteristic, no change for the rest, and a third (already described for Yinkin : claws ) for the attack style. So one for size because it transform the human into a shadowcat, and one maybe for dex, which seems to be the "typical" shadowcat characteristic

but this rule is dangerous. If an average bear fights against an average shadowcat (animals), the bear probably wins. What with both average humans, one transformed into bear the other into shadowcat ? seems the shadow catwoman to be the winner, doesn't she ?

 

I am following the same process as Odayla, and also Telmori, of requiring stacking of a set of Rune Spells with Transform Self. What wasn’t clear was how to handle characteristics, or for that matter skills and spells. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Arcadiagt5

[Stephen L]

9 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

of requiring stacking of a set of Rune Spells

If you're doing that, then the stats should just fall out of associated rune spells.  As I imagine one of the spells will be cat's agility (as opposed to bear's strength), possibly their Con if cat's health is an important aspect... 

9 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

several have Hippogriffs

Flight, in itself isn't the issue, in and of itself.  Its the fact that it's wrapping it with a ruddy Humakti Duck (if you pardon language), whose small, sneaky, has 18 Pow and sever spirit, and is quite handy with his truesword...  And it's being played by a 7 year old, who is very good at roleplaying a... ruddy Duck.

[Arcadiagt5]

14 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

If you're doing that, then the stats should just fall out of associated rune spells.  As I imagine one of the spells will be cat's agility (as opposed to bear's strength), possibly their Con if cat's health is an important aspect... 

Flight, in itself isn't the issue, in and of itself.  Its the fact that it's wrapping it with a ruddy Humakti Duck (if you pardon language), whose small, sneaky, has 18 Pow and sever spirit, and is quite handy with his truesword...  And it's being played by a 7 year old, who is very good at roleplaying a... ruddy Duck.

None of the runespells lend themselves to stats in the case of Yinkin. The three spells are Catseye, Claws, and Identify Scent.

I applaud that 7 year old, and feel that they have a bright future ahead of them! 🤣😂🤣😂

[Whizbang]

The rules are not clear, but I read Transform Self as requiring an Odaylan to stack all three Rune spells with the Transform Self cast.

That is nine Rune points in one cast, only castable on Wildday.

It had better make me turn into the biggest baddest white bear possible, amped up by the benefits of the individual Rune magic spells.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Whizbang

[Ian Absentia]

On 10/6/2020 at 7:02 AM, Joerg said:

Herding Alynxes big enough to intimidate cattle probably aren't very far from the human size range.

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, there are a number of ranch and cattle dog breeds that are quite small -- at least significantly smaller than human SIZ.  Solely in the interest of opening up career opportunities for a wider range of alynxes.

That said (and plunging straight down that rabbit hole), given the rapid diversification of domesticated canine breeds, we should similarly see a huge variety of alynx breeds.  Unless, you know, Runes and "myth" get in the way.

3 hours ago, Whizbang said:

The rules are not clear, but I read Transform Self as requiring an Odaylan to stack all three Rune spells with the Transform Self cast.

That is nine Rune points in one cast, only castable on Wildday.

The seemingly prohibitive cost of Transform Self has been a matter of contention for several decades now.

!i!

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Whizbang said:

That is nine Rune points in one cast, only castable on Wildday.

Yes, the shapeshifting rules really suck, so if you want to play a cool shapeshifter, you'd better play World of Darkness or something  

That said, the Gloranthan lore doesn't have many people changing into beasts willy-nilly anyway so I guess the rules have to model that. IIRC the tales only feature the occasional Rune Lord level figure turning into a bear or whatever, and the rest of the time it's actually groups of people turning into beasts together on specific occasions (such as a raid), which seems to indicate that they have these spells cast on them. That probably comes from a priest and/or a Wyter... (remember that Wyters get special bonuses for casting spells on groups of people belong to their community... that also applies to military groups like Basmali lion people) (for Telmori, though it looks to me like the transformation is free and mandatory on Wilddays so I guess that's why they mostly raid on that day).

Still, I find the rules quite disappointing. The cost is too prohibitive. I tried to come up with house rules a while ago for this but didn't come up with anything satisfying. These days, I'm just considering making these spells available any day, but having the cost halved on Wildday, and reduced by a quarter on the day before/after... but it kinda sucks to have to keep track of exactly which day it is (we have to do for holy days, but less exactly because in most cases holy days are a downtime activity).

On 10/6/2020 at 12:55 AM, Arcadiagt5 said:

Should I just keep the mental characteristics (INT/POW/CHA) and roll up a set of physical characteristics for a "normal" shadowcat?

I would probably indeed roll-up the physical characteristics of the shadowcat, or eyeball vaguely where the character is as a human (below/mid/above average) and pick corresponding characteristics for the shadowcat. Telmori have weird werewolf characteristics compared to normal wolves, but that's because they're a special case. In the case of a Yinkin character, the whole point to me is to transform into a normal alynx, so you can sneak around, go through small openings, and eavesdrop on people. If the character transformed into a big-ass alynx that is obviously not normal, that would defeat the point IMHO.

Edited October 7, 2020 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

That probably comes from a priest and/or a Wyter... (remember that Wyters get special bonuses for casting spells on groups of people belong to their community...

Thanks for that reminder, good call!

 

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Still, I find the rules quite disappointing.

Yes, having played werewolf it is a little unsatisfying, eh?

Edited October 7, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Whizbang said:

The rules are not clear, but I read Transform Self as requiring an Odaylan to stack all three Rune spells with the Transform Self cast.

That is nine Rune points in one cast, only castable on Wildday.

It had better make me turn into the biggest baddest white bear possible, amped up by the benefits of the individual Rune magic spells.

Yes, it isn't very useful.

In Secrets of Dorastor, I suggest an alternative, where the Transform Self spell transforms Hsunchen into their totem animal and the Transform (Body Part) spells can be used to enhance the transformed beast.

42 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

46 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Still, I find the rules quite disappointing.

Yes, having played werewolf it is a little unsatisfying, eh?

I used to play a werewolf, but I'm all right noooooowwww.

Sorry.

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I used to play a werewolf, but I'm all right noooooowwww.

Sorry.

 

I should hope so!

Edited October 7, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Arcadiagt5]

4 hours ago, Whizbang said:

The rules are not clear, but I read Transform Self as requiring an Odaylan to stack all three Rune spells with the Transform Self cast.

That is nine Rune points in one cast, only castable on Wildday.

It had better make me turn into the biggest baddest white bear possible, amped up by the benefits of the individual Rune magic spells.

Where does the Wildday restriction for Odaylans come from? I don’t recall seeing that in the rules?

[Arcadiagt5]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I would probably indeed roll-up the physical characteristics of the shadowcat, or eyeball vaguely where the character is as a human (below/mid/above average) and pick corresponding characteristics for the shadowcat. Telmori have weird werewolf characteristics compared to normal wolves, but that's because they're a special case. In the case of a Yinkin character, the whole point to me is to transform into a normal alynx, so you can sneak around, go through small openings, and eavesdrop on people. If the character transformed into a big-ass alynx that is obviously not normal, that would defeat the point IMHO.

Another useful option, and rationale, for me to consider as I have both a Yinkin in one game and an Odaylan in another to deal with.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Where does the Wildday restriction for Odaylans come from? I don’t recall seeing that in the rules?

Maybe from the Telmori who change unwillingly on Wilday

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Where does the Wildday restriction for Odaylans come from? I don’t recall seeing that in the rules?

in transform self description (p 347)

Quote

This spell must be stacked with the three cult specialty spells. For example, an Odayla cult-member caster would use Bear’s Skin, Bear’s Strength, and Claws. When these spells are combined with Transform Self, the user bodily transforms into a magical, semi-divine version of the god’s animal. All the spells have full effect, and, additionally, they last for one full hour instead of 15 minutes. All the normal abilities of the animal become usable by the caster for the spell’s duration. This spell may only be cast on Wildday and can only be cast upon an initiate or Rune Master of the god.

re reading the rules what I understand

1.  because the cost, the full transformation is exceptional (and only on wildday). You are not playing a World Of Warcraft Druid, but a Human
2. that is a semi divine version of the god's animal => so don't care what are the stats of the animal, you get the bonus of the three spells, the skills (ok the base % of skills are maybe not describe) and that's all

 

So that mean a full yinkin transformation give you :

• scent skill 25%+
• fist dammage 1d6+
• climb bonus +50
• catseye

for one hour (except catseye 12h)

no other stats changes but I would allow for the sentence "All the normal abilities of the animal become usable by the caster"

"A shadowcat first attacks with both claws and its bite simultaneously. If both claws hit, the shadowcat hangs on and rips with its hind claws on the next round, while continuing to bite." as described in the bestiary p 159

• d6 for bite(hum bite attack base 5%),
• 3d6 for rip (fist skill)
• move 10

I will not change move quietly or hide because, as Yinkini you may have improve it (as good Yinkini you must improve it)

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, there are a number of ranch and cattle dog breeds that are quite small -- at least significantly smaller than human SIZ.  Solely in the interest of opening up career opportunities for a wider range of alynxes.

waitWHAT???   Where did rabbits come into this???!?  (let alone where-rabbits!)    </snark>

All silliness aside, Ian is entirely correct in this.

Herd-dogs don't need to pose a "credible threat" (i.e. the ability to KILL the cattle), predator-fashion. The dogs just need to be able to get in past a kick, deliver a painful nip, and get back out again.  And again, and again, and again.

"I am hunting you" body-language, plus the ability to deliver pain at-will, is MORE than enough to move a herd of cattle.

The same would be true of an Alynx; the average one could undoubtedly get cattle to move in a desired direction (if it cared to do so).

 

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

...

That said (and plunging straight down that rabbit hole), given the rapid diversification of domesticated canine breeds, we should similarly see a huge variety of alynx breeds.  Unless, you know, Runes and "myth" get in the way.

Bunnies, man.  Whachoo got 'ginst da bunnies??!?

Besides, Bunnies&Burrows is a totally different RPG!  (still, we're citing WW's Werewolf:theMange (or one of those RPGs, anyhow)... so I guess it's in-scope)

<WHACK...>  OK, dragging my self back to seriosity (or thereabouts) ...

Gotta disagree with Ian on this element.  Cats seem to be resistant to breeding-variations (at least, compared to dogs).

Dogs began as wolves, and range up (a bit) to the St.Bernard & Irish Wolfhound (on the larger side (which is to say... noticeably but not vastly larger)); but then down to Yorkie's & Chihuahua's "teacup" varieties... which is a HUGE downsize.

Cats, in contrast, are still sized much like their wild-types (the African Wildcat, Felis silvestris lybica (which still interbreeds with "housecats" where the ranges overlap!)).  Sure, they get a BIT larger (Maine Coon) or smaller (Singapura, etc).  Neither the absolute size-range nor the degree of variation from wild-type is NEARLY as substantial as with dogs!

Also, dogs have much more coat-variation, and body-types...

• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/pharaoh-hound/
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/chinese-crested/
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/puli/
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/irish-wolfhound/
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/keeshond/ 
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/greyhound/
• https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/chinese-shar-pei/

Cats just don't DO that much variation.  Yes, there's some variations!  More or less smootly between the Rex's (which are essentially hairless) to the Angora's (and their progeny).

Unless, you know, Runes and "myth," so you can have your cougar-and-bigger sized Alynx, wild coat-variations, or whatever else ...  😇

I'd look at bobcats and lynxes, probably.  Eurasian Lynx get a bit bigger than our North American varieties, but I'd consider 45ish pounds an upper limit.  For the bottom end, the bobcat gets down to 15ish, I think.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

In Secrets of Dorastor, I suggest an alternative, where the Transform Self spell transforms Hsunchen into their totem animal and the Transform (Body Part) spells can be used to enhance the transformed beast.

Interesting... I think I like that!

[Ian Absentia]

19 minutes ago, g33k said:

Gotta disagree with Ian on this element.  Cats seem to be resistant to breeding-variations (at least, compared to dogs).

Clearly because dogs are eminently more useful to human society and possess greater inherent potential, and cats being, well, cats.  But, since Yinkin is clearly in secret possession of the Dog Rune, I think we can extend greater opportunity to the Alynx.

And thusly do we descend deep into the rabbit hole.  A role that I'm sure we could breed a dwarf-limbed Alynx to perform marvelously.

!i!

[Edit: We rushed over this bit, so I just wanted to bask in it for a moment...

19 minutes ago, g33k said:

Ian is entirely correct in this.

Aw, yeah.]

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ian Absentia
Self-gratification.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

waitWHAT???   Where did rabbits come into this???!?  (let alone where-rabbits!)    </snark>

Why not were-rabbits? I am sure that I have seen a film about them

i have were-gophers in Pent (The Gord-Un have them) and played in a memorable Funfair scenario, where we investigated a series of murders that coincided with a travelling fair, we played all the games and came away with goldfish as prizes, only to find that they were were-goldfish assassins who transformed overnight back into humans and attacked us in our beds.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, there are a number of ranch and cattle dog breeds that are quite small -- at least significantly smaller than human SIZ.  Solely in the interest of opening up career opportunities for a wider range of alynxes.

Smaller than my size - sure. I'd hate to face off with a canine in the 120 kg range. But there are herding dogs in the 40 to 60 kg range, which overlaps with that of smaller and lighter humans.

The Norwegian Forest Cat is one of the bigger breeds of housecat, reaching 9 kg in large toms. Unless practicing bull riding, I don't see modern-sized cattle as very impressed  by such creatures. A larger specimen of bobcat or Canada Lynx will bring twice that mass into contests, and might qualify as enough of a nuisance that a cow of 200 kg might prefer to follow its lead rather than minding its own business. Whether a bull weighing above 350 kg would follow is yet another question.

From my experience being disturbed by curious cattle when inspecting shafts of water treatment plants, cattle respects size, probably expecting bulk to match the silhouette. They also react to noise. Neither are properties that an ordinary alynx brings into the game. So how can an alynx impress cattle?

Exhibiting apex predator behavior, I would guess. Lazy yawns, staring, short aggressive sprints, possibly a tap with the forepaw, fluffing up the tail for increased size. My office feline Max does all this to keep our office dog Moritz in check, which (while small) easily brings twice the mass into their domination games.

16 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

That said (and plunging straight down that rabbit hole), given the rapid diversification of domesticated canine breeds, we should similarly see a huge variety of alynx breeds.  Unless, you know, Runes and "myth" get in the way.

SIZ 8-12 for a large breed sounds reasonable to me. That's about the size of smaller, female cougars.

 

A burly, bulky worshiper of Yinkin seems somehow atypical, but hey, there will be outliers everywhere. So what if such an individual becomes effectively something the size of a were-tiger? The feline body plan does allow for way more massive specimen.

 

But then, the question is how much physical shapechanging there is for Yinkini. Yinkin did break with the Hsunchen in favor of his brother's humans and gods.

 

[Stephen L]

On 10/7/2020 at 6:22 PM, Ian Absentia said:

That said (and plunging straight down that rabbit hole), given the rapid diversification of domesticated canine breeds

I'm not a biologist, so almost certainly I've misunderstood, but I though the diversity of dogs was a bit of mystery (something to do with genetic bottlenecks), and can't be explained by human breeding programs.  Other domesticated animals don't express in such diversity, and breeding for specific traits is a much slower process than for dogs.

Cats aren't domesticated, they just moved in because it suited them.  And will move on when the fancy takes them.

However, I suspect that's a very personal opinion based on our cat, who, quite frankly, is committing murder of the local wildlife on a horrific scale.  He does, however, like being cuddled, and looks very handsome.  Anyway, I am under no illusion: when he lays yet another ambush for me, he's just checking for signs of weakness.  

[Baron Wulfraed]

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I'm not a biologist, so almost certainly I've misunderstood, but I though the diversity of dogs was a bit of mystery (something to do with genetic bottlenecks), and can't be explained by human breeding programs.  Other domesticated animals don't express in such diversity, and breeding for specific traits is a much slower process than for dogs.

Ever read the history of the Russian Silver Fox breeding experiment... In only a few generations of selecting for friendliness they ended up with floppy eared foxes with juvenile traits as adults.

https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12052-018-0090-x