How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[threedeesix]

Good for you ! Though it begs the question...does it still count as a monograph then ? Or put another way with the addition of new cover and artwork they've got a professional product, but they've only paid you knock down monograph prices. If you'd wrote it as a chaosium product from the start how much would they have paid you ?

When a monograph gets turned into a professional product it becomes a whole new contract with a renegotiated price. From what I understand, the money paid for the monograph has nothing to do with the new contract. I don't have any hard figures, but from what I understand, it will be paid by the word , but I have no hard and fast information at this time. I can tell you, you still cant quit your day job.

[Nightshade]

Gah! Now it's Seneschal's frustration I can sympathize with!

Don't you remember what it was like in those dark days when there was no decent d100 system alive out there? Channel the energy you would have been using to fight that despair into enthusiasm now! This is the new Golden Age! (We just need to polish it a bit...)

The problem is that for some of us not much has changed. I'm playing in a BRP campaign now, but that's something that could have happened, with the same people, any time in the past twenty years. We didn't intrinsically stop running BRP games just because it wasn't an active system, we didn't stop teaching it to new people when we got fresh blood. On a purely personal level, nothing much has changed.

[Nightshade]

craft a campaign setting, but since most GMS use per-established settings and pre-written adventures, I doubt BRP will connect with beginners.

The second part of this is not supported by the experiences of any of the game companies I've interacted with. Adventures don't sell well.

[Atgxtg]

The problem is that for some of us not much has changed. I'm playing in a BRP campaign now, but that's something that could have happened, with the same people, any time in the past twenty years. We didn't intrinsically stop running BRP games just because it wasn't an active system, we didn't stop teaching it to new people when we got fresh blood. On a purely personal level, nothing much has changed.

Consing how often we disagree it's amazing how much we tend to agree on things. My view exactly.

I've got RQ2, RQ3, most of the RQ supplements, WoW, CoC, Stormbringer, Elric and possibly ElfQuest kicking around. The BRP core rules doesn't change anything as far as my gaming goes. Yeah there are a few new wrinkles, but frankly, I wouldn't use most of them.

[Agentorange]

When a monograph gets turned into a professional product it becomes a whole new contract with a renegotiated price. From what I understand, the money paid for the monograph has nothing to do with the new contract. I don't have any hard figures, but from what I understand, it will be paid by the word , but I have no hard and fast information at this time. I can tell you, you still cant quit your day job.

As long as you're going to be suitably recompensed it's cool. This presumably means that classic fantasy vol II is going to get the same treatment ( hooray ! )

[threedeesix]

This presumably means that classic fantasy vol II is going to get the same treatment ( hooray ! )

I would assume, however they more than likely won't even comment on that one until I turn it in. I suppose it could theoretically skip the entire monograph rout entirely. But then I wouldn't get paid twice. ;-(

Thanks for everyones interest. I don't want to impinge on this interesting thread anymore than necessary so I'll post the news in the Classic Fantasy thread.

Rod

[Atgxtg]

Thanks for everyones interest. I don't want to impinge on this interesting thread anymore than necessary so I'll post the news in the Classic Fantasy thread.

Rod

What "impinge". Have a generic Fantasy RPG on the shelves is probably critical to BRP's popularity. So it is certainly on topic.

I think Chaosium's decision is a good sign for BRP's future, too. IMO no RPG is going to be successful unless the parent company gets products on the shelves.

[frogspawner]

The problem is that for some of us not much has changed.

Everything's changed. Now there is Hope!

What "impinge". Have a generic Fantasy RPG on the shelves is probably critical to BRP's popularity. So it is certainly on topic.

Spot on. Critical twice over: being there for people to see and buy; and showing Chaosium's commitment to the BRP line. Woo-hoo! :party:

PS: Post #1000. Do I get a prize? :cool:

[dragonewt]

How could BRP be more popular? Maybe it needs a "BRP for Dummies"... :eek:

"I went from First Level Barbarian to Epic Level Dungeon Master..." :thumb:

"It saved my marriage." :party:

[threedeesix]

PS: Post #1000. Do I get a prize?

I don't have much to give, but how about a few party smilies.

:party: :thumb: :thumb: :happy: :thumb: :party:

[Mechashef]

I suggested the artists that did In Search of the Trollslayer, I think it would capture the feel of Classic Fantasy perfectly.

Congratulations.

And I agree the artist who did Trollslayer would do a good job for Classic Fantasy.

[NickMiddleton]

The second part of this is not supported by the experiences of any of the game companies I've interacted with. Adventures don't sell well.

TSR built (A)D&D's popularity in its "golden age" (late seventies / early eighties) on a high volume of adventures. Call of Cthulhu owes it's pre-eminence and longevity as THE horror RPG to its extensive library of campaigns and scenario anthologies. The most explosively popular RPG line of the last five years or so is Savage Worlds - practically EVERY substantial supplement has included significant numbers of adventures and some lines (e.g. Hellfrost have published more adventures than anything else. Goodman Games and Paizo are both still doing well, despite the d20 collapse and the more restrictive D&D 4e market, selling predominantly adventures.

Building a game line round adventure sales is clearly a bad idea - but equally they are clearly intrinsic to a successful game line. If there are easily accessible off the shelf adventures for a setting, GM's are more willing to take on the setting (as they know they have a safety net), and if the GMs are enthusiastic the players are more likely to be interested. They key is finding a way to sell the maximum number of books to players and GM's whilst also be able to supply the much smaller GM only market with the scenarios they need to to make a setting work.

I think there are two methods:

1) Hellfrost / Savage Worlds - sell adventures in PDF only form, and do lots of them. The PDF format has much lower overheads than print and normal distribution, and is an ideal format for including lots of nice add ons (GM and PC maps, handouts, NPC rosters etc etc) that would seriously impact the cost of a print edition. Plus, they are universally accessible - it's as easy to buy a PDF from New Zealand as from San Francisco or Luton.§ And this is clearly an element of the future of niche publishing, for all many of us prefer dead tree's in our hands.

2) (I seem to sing this song every time this discussion happens...): Griffin Mountain Griffin Island, Sea Kings of the Purple Towns, The Traveller Adventure, Arkham Unveiled - sourcebook plus scenarios that will have utility beyond the the life of the scenarios contain with it. Te best ones (Griffin Island, despite Gloranthan Grognard prejudice) have a modular presentation that makes portions useful to players as well as the GM...

Cheers,

Nick

§ Speaking as a reluctant fan of PDF's, I'd dearly love to see Chaosium do "proper" PDF scenarios (i.e. Chaosium edited / produced) for BRP AND make them available via LULU or similar as PoD - I'd happily pay the PoD mark up if I could buy them in print...

[NickMiddleton]

The problem is that for some of us not much has changed. I'm playing in a BRP campaign now, but that's something that could have happened, with the same people, any time in the past twenty years. We didn't intrinsically stop running BRP games just because it wasn't an active system, we didn't stop teaching it to new people when we got fresh blood. On a purely personal level, nothing much has changed.

At the risk of re-igniting that interminable tangent again, that's your personal experience. It happens to chime pretty much with mine - but it is also irrelevant, as every RPG professional I've ever talked to or heard / read talking about on the matter has said the same thing - whatever fans may do, in the end what sustains a game is product, on the shelves. Whether it's fan produced semi-official stuff (as sustain RQIII in it's lean periods), third party licensee's or the original publisher the only sure way to STOP a game dwindling to just a die hard core of established fans is for new material to be released...

And if D&D could achieve the almost unheard of, a second epoch making surge in popularity (measured by sales) in as many generations, which is what by all accounts it managed with 3e , why can't BRP do well now.

More importantly, with the system FINALLY gathered in one singe published reference, but with many of the fan favourite options from the previous specific incarnations included and thus easily accessible, why isn't this an exciting time for BRP? With Chaosium at their most co-operative and liberal with respect to fan contributions and third party licensing in DECADES, why is this NOT the most exciting time to be working with BRP? With (ok, mostly as monographs at present) MORE settings and support material than ever available for BRP, why NOT be excited about the possibilities of this game?

Cheers,

Nick

[RosenMcStern]

More importantly, with the system FINALLY gathered in one singe published reference, but with many of the fan favourite options from the previous specific incarnations included and thus easily accessible, why isn't this an exciting time for BRP?

:thumb: You nailed it :thumb:

[cjbowser]

When a monograph gets turned into a professional product it becomes a whole new contract with a renegotiated price. From what I understand, the money paid for the monograph has nothing to do with the new contract. I don't have any hard figures, but from what I understand, it will be paid by the word , but I have no hard and fast information at this time. I can tell you, you still cant quit your day job.

You are correct here. There will be a whole new contract and negotiated rate. You'll also need to start working on illo suggestions. That's something that surprised me, Chaosium had me suggest all the illustrations that went into the book.

In my case, they didn't count the money paid towards my monograph as an advance against the money paid for the distro book. However, there was a four year span between monograph and distro book.

Congratulations on getting the book out there!

[Nightshade]

Consing how often we disagree it's amazing how much we tend to agree on things. My view exactly.

I've got RQ2, RQ3, most of the RQ supplements, WoW, CoC, Stormbringer, Elric and possibly ElfQuest kicking around. The BRP core rules doesn't change anything as far as my gaming goes. Yeah there are a few new wrinkles, but frankly, I wouldn't use most of them.

Well, there is material in BRP that will make it a little easier to do a few things because I didn't own the sources they were derived from, and having it all in one spot is convenient. On the other hand, some of its pretty much useless, and honestly, I'm not sure Jason thought some of it through (the combination of the RQ derived primitive missile weapons and the CoC derived guns could, perhaps, be better; when looking at the ranges its kind of obvious something isn't quite right with that).

So there's some point in the exercise, but its a mixed bag.

[Nightshade]

TSR built (A)D&D's popularity in its "golden age" (late seventies / early eighties) on a high volume of adventures. Call

All evidence I have is that these and most others functioned as a strange form of "loss leader"; they lead to interest in the core products. But its been a consistent answer that most scenarios and adventures don't sell well enough to justify their costs in and of themselves. As such, keeping enough of them out there to support GMs who don't do their own work is only possible if you keep your costs on them very low (supposedly one of the benefits of the D20 and OGL licenses was that WOTC was effectively able to farm this job out to third parties beyond a minimum amount of adventure support).

I think there are two methods:

1) Hellfrost / Savage Worlds - sell adventures in PDF only form, and do lots of them. The PDF format has much lower overheads than print and normal distribution, and is an ideal format for including lots of nice add ons (GM and PC maps, handouts, NPC rosters etc etc) that would seriously impact the cost of a print edition. Plus, they are universally accessible - it's as easy to buy a PDF from New Zealand as from San Francisco or Luton.§ And this is clearly an element of the future of niche publishing, for all many of us prefer dead tree's in our hands.

2) (I seem to sing this song every time this discussion happens...): Griffin Mountain Griffin Island, Sea Kings of the Purple Towns, The Traveller Adventure, Arkham Unveiled - sourcebook plus scenarios that will have utility beyond the the life of the scenarios contain with it. Te best ones (Griffin Island, despite Gloranthan Grognard prejudice) have a modular presentation that makes portions useful to players as well as the GM...

Fair enough. I tend to be thinking more in terms of the old stand-alone printed adventures, which from all evidence really haven't ever done that well for much of anyone. I'm still dubious that the CoC big-book extended adventures are a model that's liable to work well consistently for anyone unless they can get the work done cheap.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Nightshade

[Nightshade]

At the risk of re-igniting that interminable tangent again, that's your personal experience. It happens to chime pretty much with mine - but it is also irrelevant, as every RPG professional

It wasn't irrelevant to the specific post I was responding to, which is why the folks on here haven't gotten that excited. New fans are another issue, but if people wonder why the old fans are sometimes only modestly interested, its because, really, for a lot of us little has changed. I haven't, for example, seen much in the way of new material even among the monographs that sparked my interest all that much.

[Atgxtg]

....but if people wonder why the old fans are sometimes only modestly interested, its because, really, for a lot of us little has changed. I haven't, for example, seen much in the way of new material even among the monographs that sparked my interest all that much.

OI think it is also because us old fans are a bit cautious. This isn't the first time that the promise of a bright new future, and a renaissance for Chaosium has popped up. I recall how when BRP zero came out some people snagged it just in case BRP proper never materialized.

BRP has been slow getting support from Chaosium, most of which isn't available at local RPG shops.

Frankly, if there were any other RPG company we'd probably all be wondering just what the future was for BRP. Just compare it to the support that companies like WotC, Mongoose, SJG, HERO, and White Wolf give to lines that they are actively supporting. Or worse still compare it to the type of support Chaosium used to give games like RQ or Pendragon.

To the gamer who doesn't surf the net regularly, and buys products based up what he sees on the shelf at the local RPG store, BRP doesn't exist.

[wbcreighton]

And if D&D could achieve the almost unheard of, a second epoch making surge in popularity (measured by sales) in as many generations, which is what by all accounts it managed with 3e , why can't BRP do well now.

Thanks for the link, Nick. It was enlightening. And Goodman Games sells rpg adventures and campaigns only, if I am not mistaken. I think it is a good read for anyone who wants to understand more about the rpg business. Publishing good material isn't enough. Marketing and support are the key. Good insight into internet sales versus retail store sales. Internet sales are such a minor factor in the sales picture.

I'm looking forward to more BRP goodness, whether BRP becomes more "popular or not".

[frogspawner]

Thanks for the link, Nick. It was enlightening.

Yes, very interesting. A bit that seemed most relevant to me was:

The online market (including print, PDF, and POD) simply can't compete. As Goodman Games has matured into one of the standard stocklist items for typical game stores, I have seen my overall sales base grow steadily while online sales have dwindled. Online sales now make up a tiny fraction of Goodman Games sales. Yes, PDF sales are the fastest-growing sales segment, that is true, but the hobby market is HUGE compared to the online market - orders of magnitude larger. If you support retailers, they will support you, and that effort pays off tenfold.

So, each product consigned to 'Monograph' status instead of fully supported, is one more doomed to "orders of magnitude" fewer sales... (And one more opportunity to support retailers, and get that "ten-fold payoff", that Chaosium loses).

[RosenMcStern]

So, each product consigned to 'Monograph' status instead of fully supported, is one more doomed to "orders of magnitude" fewer sales... (And one more opportunity to support retailers, and get that "ten-fold payoff", that Chaosium loses).

If you read the whole history of the RPG hobby, you will learn that the occurence of overprinted supplements accumulating dust in warehouses outnumbered the happy event of a product selling out fast. And we are talking about the times when RPGs sold thousands of copies, not hundreds. So the fact that Chaosium probes the market with monographss is understandable.

What is relevant is that they sound like being more prone to going into fulll edition after just one month of good sales. Classic Fantasy's "larval" state will last very little, like Trollslayer did.

[dragonewt]

More importantly, with the system FINALLY gathered in one singe published reference, but with many of the fan favourite options from the previous specific incarnations included and thus easily accessible, why isn't this an exciting time for BRP?

Could it be that systems like Savage Worlds are more exciting and appeal to a larger and more excitable demographic where the level of entry and enthusiasm needs to be tweaked appropriately to suit them?

I am just stirring up thoughts.

For the record, BRP/D100 appeals to myself, both from a nostalgic point of view and because it is the type of system that appeals to me and stimulates me even if I found it anew.

What does appeal to the average role player these days? What do they like? What do they need? Do the majority require something that has an low entry level so that they can play as soon as possible with limited time?

Edited December 7, 2009 by dragonewt

[dragonewt]

I'm not sure Jason thought some of it through (the combination of the RQ derived primitive missile weapons and the CoC derived guns could, perhaps, be better; when looking at the ranges its kind of obvious something isn't quite right with that).

I would say that given the enormous scope of of information, Jason made a splendid effort collating it and weaving some structure in. It is only after this effort that we now have the chance to review the whole and have the opportunity to reflect accordingly. It is easier to see where changes can be made once the initial effort has been made.

Edited December 7, 2009 by dragonewt

[dragonewt]

To the gamer who doesn't surf the net regularly, and buys products based up what he sees on the shelf at the local RPG store, BRP doesn't exist.

I had to order my physical copy of BRP from overseas. Even though I already have RQ2/3, CoC and other BRP/D100 material, I wanted to support the product.

Edited December 7, 2009 by dragonewt