How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[RosenMcStern]

Ehm, gentlemen, the first six months of this forum have been marked byfrogspawer and me (or other pairs) throwing mud at each other. Not pleasant. But it stopped. Although, given the toilet-related debates that replaced the arguments, I am no longer so sure if it was an improvement

Is it too much if we ask you to stop shooting at each other and expressing your points of view in a civil and constructive way? It is very easy, just apply the following conversion table:

Bullshit -> I don't agree

You speak nonsense -> I beg to differ

You are a moron -> There are different points of view

The comparison of BRP with GURPS or HERO or WOD is an interesting subject. I am absolutely sure that everyone can find evidence supporting his POV for the simple reason that all systems have been played by lots, and I mean lots, of gamers.

But the reason for making this a personal battle is.......?

[seneschal]

Assuming my own, much disagreed-with POV is true ...

what settings/genre niches do we still need to fill for BRP to have the product spread such a venerable and well-tested generic RPG system should have to appeal to a broader spectrum of the gaming public?

[rust]

what settings/genre niches do we still need to fill for BRP to have the product spread such a venerable and well-tested generic RPG system should have to appeal to a broader spectrum of the gaming public?

In my view, Fantasy is covered by Runequest, Horror by Call of Cthulhu, and

History by the Alephtar Games material, the one published as well as the one

planned.

This leaves mostly Science Fiction, including its little sister cyberpunk / trans-

humanism, Supers and Modern, I think - with science fiction a very wide and

open field, from space fantasy to hard science fiction.

Looking at the various monographs, I have the impression that in fact all the

genres are already covered, or will soon be covered, although not in the most

attractive way - the content is there, its quality is very good, but it is not

published in a form that could reach a wide audience.

Something more like the GURPS genre supplements (e.g. GURPS Space) could

help to bring BRP onto more FLGS shelves.

[NickMiddleton]

Assuming my own, much disagreed-with POV is true ...

What, this one?

I would say that BRP QuickStart is the introductory document. We've just got to get it more widely distributed, available from places other than just the Chaosium web site. The broader the distribution the better.

People who don't actually like the current BRP core rules might not like it, but ignoring my own small contribution to the scenarios included with it, I think it's spot on. The rules portion is only 24 pages and it has a decent, legible lay out with some art. The only problem with it is that there aren't print copies of it for sale in my FLGS...

what settings/genre niches do we still need to fill for BRP to have the product spread such a venerable and well-tested generic RPG system should have to appeal to a broader spectrum of the gaming public?

I think Akrasia's right - a solid Fantasy and SF setting (and I'd add as a third option a Post-Apocalypse one as well) could do very well for BRP. It's not a question of pursuing niches so much as finding a compelling take on a particular setting - Triple Ace Games Hellfrost is not wildly innovative but it is beautifully executed. Magnum Opus's Dragon Warriors is a re-issue of a twenty five year old game - but done with meticulous care and attention to polish up the details of what was always a beautifully imagined and well realised setting. And in general I don't see the market being there for "genre books" - if BRP w as robust, healthy multi-genre game like GURPS or HERO (or even MRQ, MongTrav or WW's nWoD) I can see additional tool boxes selling well but as is I'm sceptical - as was CHarlie Krank a few years back when the BRP Space ideas was last floated, IIRC. Mind, they've just posted this...

The problem is that after each setting I've suggest has had its first book released there would need to be MORE books within a reasonable time frame. Assuming three print books and six PDF only releases for a first year (1 print book every six months, PDF's every two months) that's (ball park guess) on the order of 160,000 words to be written, edited, proofed, illustrated, put in layout and published. For ONE setting. That's a LOT of work that either has to handled in house or paid for by sending out of house...

*sigh* still need to win the lottery then.

Nick

Edited December 2, 2009 by NickMiddleton

[Rurik]

Aww, c'mon guys, don't discourage them. I don't know what would make BRP more popular but this board could use some more good old flaming wars for sure. I was just thinking about creating a poll to see who is winning this one. >:->

[frogspawner]

I think Akrasia's right - a solid Fantasy and SF setting (and I'd add as a third option a Post-Apocalypse one as well) could do very well for BRP.

Well, please come on down to the SharedWorld sub-forum and help make them happen...

[Atgxtg]

The problem is that after each setting I've suggest has had its first book released there would need to be MORE books within a reasonable time frame. Assuming three print books and six PDF only releases for a first year (1 print book every six months, PDF's every two months) that's (ball park guess) on the order of 160,000 words to be written, edited, proofed, illustrated, put in layout and published. For ONE setting. That's a LOT of work that either has to handled in house or paid for by sending out of house...

*sigh* still need to win the lottery then.

Nick

That is probably the biggest obstacle to the success of any RPG. Support.

Some any good concepts and games have fallen to the wayside because they failed to be supported with additional products in a timely fashion.

BRP isn't so much a universal system adaptable to any setting as a toolkit system that lacks any genre. It also lacks some of the tools it needs for certain genres (particular Sci-Fi).

It makes a decent toolkit for a experienced GM with a clear idea of the sort of campaign he wants to create, but isn't much help to a fledging GM or one used to running in a pre-existing setting. It really needs some sort of "out of the box" campaign setting and adventures to help out a beginning GM.

Yeah, many of us don't need that kind of stuff, but then we have a higher percentage of RPG authors and publishers active in this forum than is typical among the gaming community.

[frogspawner]

I was just thinking about creating a poll to see who is winning this one. >:->

Same here, but on reflection we probably don't need a poll, since ultimately they're both right - BRP needs a great system and cool settings.

1) Is the system great enough? Or does it need to be simpler (or more complex)? Or just have a default set of options? (What options does the QuickStart actually use?)

2) Which setting(s) shall we choose to develop? SharedWorld? Fractured Hopes? Classic Fantasy's Realm? All of them?

[Nightshade]

Same here, but on reflection we probably don't need a poll, since ultimately they're both right - BRP needs a great system and cool settings.

And of course I've let myself be sidetracked. I'd never argue settings don't help a game line; what I do question is whether setting is the primary determinant. There seem to be three cases possible (and of course different people will land in different ones, but the issue of popularity will be which is the dominant case, not just that the others exist):

1. System First: people buy a game for its system, and the specific settings that come with it are secondary. In the above case a strong setting is desirable, but the game can survive without any given one.

2. Setting First: people buy the game for its setting first, and the system is secondary. There are certainly games this appears to be true of, but its usually pretty clear when talking to people about them that its not just the case that the system doesn't suit them (though that will be the case for some people too) but that the system involved isn't viewed as that good (TriTac's games come to mind). Presumably for people this is really true for, they'll follow the setting to whatever system its with (it can be argued that's how Gloranthaphiles have operated). If this is the dominant view, trying to attract people "to BRP" is pointless, because BRP isn't why they'd be playing anyway; it'd just be the necessary evil of system to support their favorite setting.

3. System and setting matter about equally: In this case people are very fond of particular settings, but only find them to work with some systems. This is the only case where a good setting seems to make or break BRPs success; where the setting helps drive interest in the system, but people aren't particularly likely to just port it to their system of choice.

[Thalaba]

Akrasia's comments echo two things we already know. There's a poll on the Chaosium website that asks what genres people would like to see supported by BRP. Fantasy and Sci-fi are tied for first place, while horror, historical, and the rest are all tied for second place with half as many votes. Fantasy and Sci-fi should be the priorities, regardless of whether there is a lot of it out there already. Whoever produces it should just be sure to make it unique. There are a lot of vanilla fantasy settings out there - I'm sure there's a market for fantasy of another kind (S&S as Akrasia says, or something re-imagined).

RuneQuest, sadly, doesn't count as a BRP setting - it's a Mongoose setting. BRP should have it's own, and it needs to be good enough to compete.

The other thing that Akrasia brings up is that the BRP book is daunting for all it's options - hard for a newbie to get into. This is also evident from a number of threads we've had here started by interested new people who've asked for help in choosing their options. This leads me to something we can do as a community - prepare a number of primers on how to use BRP (the core book as written) and select the best options for emulating various settings. These could be titled "How to create Fantasy with BRP" or somesuch, and put up here and maybe on the Chaoisum site. These needn't be long, but would help new people get on their way to running a BRP game. Any thoughts on whether that might help?

Thalaba

[rust]

RuneQuest, sadly, doesn't count as a BRP setting - it's a Mongoose setting.

I have seen people "migrate" from Runequest to BRP, so I would not count

it out, especially since we are looking for ways to make BRP more popular,

not necessarily Chaosium.

[seneschal]

As we're considering these options, another question to ask ourselves is "What is BRP's sweet spot?" In other words, what does it do better than other generic RPGs out there? HERO System's draw is its flexibility. GURPS' is its multiplicity of support material. Savage Worlds' is that it is "fast, furious and fun." Tri-Stat dx's is that it is more flexible than GURPS but less intimidating than HERO.

So what does BRP have going for it? And what can we do to promote that advantage to potential new players?

[frogspawner]

The other thing that Akrasia brings up is that the BRP book is daunting for all it's options - hard for a newbie to get into. ... This leads me to something we can do as a community - prepare a number of primers on how to use BRP (the core book as written) and select the best options for emulating various settings. These could be titled "How to create Fantasy with BRP" or somesuch, and put up here and maybe on the Chaoisum site.

Good one. Yes, these are needed! On Chaosium's poll evidence two should be enough for starters: Fantasy and SciFi.

Question 1: Should the options be the same in both genres, for common simplicity?

Question 2: Would we ever be able to agree what options to use??

1. System First: people buy a game for its system...

2. Setting First: people buy the game for its setting first...

3. System and setting matter about equally: ....

Hmm, also a good point, that the "Type 2" people are lost to BRP (Except perhaps for the CoC-ers. Hmm - should we wage a civil war on CoC to grab their supporters for BRP?)

Obviously, we have the sensible "Type 1" people here already...

[rust]

So what does BRP have going for it?

It is an excellent toolbox for the design of (semi-) realistic settings and

campaigns of (almost) all genres, and as a percentile system it is easy

to comprehend and use for most referees and players ... but apart from

this, which is not exactly attractive for new players, I do not see much

that would make BRP "better" than other systems.

[frogspawner]

So what does BRP have going for it? And what can we do to promote that advantage to potential new players?

For new players, it has to be the simplicity and understandability of % skills. So keep it simple. (Then mention the potential to add complexity later...)

As we're considering these options, another question to ask ourselves is "What is BRP's sweet spot?"

It's multi-genre. It's dangerous. Dr.Who meets Starship Troopers?

PS: I was just wondering this very thing, down in the SharedWorld forum...

Edited December 3, 2009 by frogspawner
PS

[Atgxtg]

One of my favorite bits about BRP, although one that isn't popular with everyone is the "skill check" experience system. Back when the AD&D group had to wait while the GM tallied up the XP and work out the award per character, skill checks were much easier and faster.

Another bit was that is was more "gritty/re;asotoc" than most of it's competitiors.

Yet another was that since it used a fixed HP system, it was possible to mix 'n match characters of different power levels.

Now, many of the features that made BRP (well actually RQ) popular in the past are now standard in other RPGs. Back in 1980 it was hard to find a fantasy RPG that did use character classes and levels.

[frogspawner]

"gritty/re;asotoc"

(Marvellous! It took a good 10 seconds before I could resolve that into "realistic". Was that one specially for me? Thanks!)

[seneschal]

I do not see much that would make BRP "better" than other systems.

Of course you do. Otherwise you'd be having this discussion on the HERO Games or Fusion web site.

It boils down to marketing. Many brands of soap can clean your laundry. But some of you may prefer certain brands to others. In the same way, there are a number of competent, enjoyable generic RPG systems out there, some of them free. HERO, GURPS, ORE, Action!, Tri-Stat dx, and at least a dozen others are also toolkit game sets that can support gritty play in multiple genres.

So what are the things you like about BRP that cause you to choose it above the rest? I'm talking to all you BRP grognards, not just to rust. What makes BRP "the fairest in the land?" You've gotta be able to answer that question to draw and convert newbies like myself and other potential customers. You're not trying to persuade us that Brand X is bad. You're sharing the love about what makes BRP so wonderful.

[rust]

By the way, concerning additional genres for BRP, I did just see this one:

The Modern Equipment Catalog Chaosium Inc.

[rust]

Of course you do. Otherwise you'd be having this discussion on the HERO Games or Fusion web site.

Sorry to say, but it is probably just "tradition". I have been using BRP for

about thirty years now for almost all of my settings and campaigns, and

so I know how to make it do the tricks I want it to do.

Using any other system would mean to give up my "experience advantage",

so I stay with BRP - although I have to admit that there are other systems

that can deliver the same or equally good results in the hands of those who

know them well.

[seneschal]

Sorry to say, but it is probably just "tradition". I have been using BRP for about thirty years now for almost all of my settings and campaigns, and so I know how to make it do the tricks I want it to do. Using any other system would mean to give up my "experience advantage",

so I stay with BRP - although I have to admit that there are other systems

that can deliver the same or equally good results in the hands of those who

know them well.

Hmmm ... (cue title theme to Fiddler on the Roof)

"Has stood the test of time." Naw, we're trying to appeal to 11-16 year olds here. Anything before about 1994 doesn't exist for them.

"If you're gaming with me, gotta BRP."

"Basic Roleplaying: Old-school, before it was cool."

Several of you have mentioned the percentile skills thing ...

"The original what-you-see-is-what-you-get skill system."

"Ditch the calculator and GAME!"

On an unrelated note, has BRP Rome done well enough to encourage supplements: Byzantine, Persia/Parthia, and the like? Or a book of Roman-ish adventures?

Edited December 3, 2009 by seneschal

[Thalaba]

Good one. Yes, these are needed! On Chaosium's poll evidence two should be enough for starters: Fantasy and SciFi.

Question 1: Should the options be the same in both genres, for common simplicity?

Question 2: Would we ever be able to agree what options to use??

We as a group probably would not agree which options are our favourites, but I'm sure we could agree to what the pros and cons are for the various options. The material needs to be presented in a non-judgemental manner, explain what each option does, explain what it gives versus what it costs, and then make a recommendation on its use for a given game style.

Some options are genre independant (point based character creation), while other (splitting attacks and parries) will have more use in a hand-to-hand fantasy setting than in a sonic blaster sci-fi setting. Within fantasy, some options give a grim and gritty feel (hit locations, etc.), some a more heroic feel (dodging missile fire, major wounds), and so on. A lot of this already exists in the book in the settings section, but maybe it just needs to be presented differently.

I'm curious to know if any new people would find this helpful?

[Atgxtg]

So what are the things you like about BRP that cause you to choose it above the rest? I'm talking to all you BRP grognards, not just to rust. What makes BRP "the fairest in the land?" You've gotta be able to answer that question to draw and convert newbies like myself and other potential customers. You're not trying to persuade us that Brand X is bad. You're sharing the love about what makes BRP so wonderful.

Personally I don't consider myself a BRP grognard, but an RQ grognard (meaning RQ, not MRQ). While it's nice to see Chaosium put something out other than CoC, I'd prefer to play/run RQ, Stormbringer or Superworld rather than BRP.

I'm not sure I consider BRP (or even RQ2/3) "the fairest in the land", either. Practically all the features that I liked about RQ have been incorporated into other RPGs--even the RQ setting, Glorantha. Many of the elements that made RQ so enticing (skill based characters, a richly detailed setting, campaign settings rather than adventure modules, an overarching story) are now common to many RPGs.

I doubt that we'll get much of a consensus on why people like BRP either. Since there are so many variants of the RQ rules (Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, Worlds Of Wonder, Elric, Superworld, Ringworld), the fanbase is really several different groups who each prefer one version or another. Hence the various debates over things like hit locations, Strike Ranks, skill category modifiers, fatigue rules, skill checks, movement, the Resistance, Table, and such. Probably anything (and everything) that one fan liked about one version of BRP is something that another fan hated and a reason why the preferred a different version of the rules.

For example, I for one, don't care much for Call of Cthulhu, finding the mechanics poor, and the campaign setting pointless. Lovecraft's theme of creatures far more powerful than man; that man is helpless against, strikes me as the worst possible setting for a RPG possible. Yet, others adore the game, and it has been Chaosium's lifeblood for two decades.

[Atgxtg]

(Marvellous! It took a good 10 seconds before I could resolve that into "realistic". Was that one specially for me? Thanks!)

Sadly, no.

Nice to know someone gets enjoyment from it. Who knows, maybe somewhere, sometime, somebody was sitting at a keyboard just about the slit their wrists when they say one of my typos and laughed to hard they dropped the knife.

Hey, it could happen.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Atgxtg
italics -I bet you thought it was for typos!

[NickMiddleton]

Well, please come on down to the SharedWorld sub-forum and help make them happen...

No offence, but in my experience the chance of such a project producing something that will positively contribute to BRP popularity is very slim... Not to say its not both fun and worthwhile, but shared world building exercises have been around for many years and they rarely produce something that appeals beyond a very small subset of fans. I wish SharedWorld every success, but I don't think the solution lies there.

Nick