Free INT - Sorcery

[Godlearner]

I think this is one of the worst concepts to have migrated from RQ3 to RQG and should be removed from the rules. It makes Sorcery completely INT stat depended and allows a novice sorcerer to cast a bigger spell than an Archmage. The entire thing should be replaced Spell % divided by 5 as the amount of intensity which can be added and Magic Rune % as your chance to cast a Sorcery spell.

#givesorceryachance

[Runeblogger]

I think experienced sorcerers will have created inscriptions for all the spells they know so they can use their full INT to cast them.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Runeblogger

[Mugen]

53 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I think experienced sorcerers will have created inscriptions for all the spells they know so they can use their full INT to cast them.

I thought Sorcery spells didn't reduce your Free INT anymore, and only Spirit Magic did.

Am I wrong ?

Apart from this, I agree with you, @Godlearner, but don't hope for a change, as it has already been discussed here.

[Kloster]

51 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Am I wrong ?

You are. RQG P384: A sorcerer may manipulate spells up to their Free INT, a value equaling their INT minus the number of points of sorcery and spirit magic  possessed. A sorcerer cannot cast a spell that requires more Free INT than they possess.

[French Desperate WindChild]

what about warriors with size 8 and str 8, it is too unfair ! they have damage malus and no access to the most deadly weapons (great sword, etc..)

#givehobbitachance

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I think this is one of the worst concepts to have migrated from RQ3 to RQG and should be removed from the rules. It makes Sorcery completely INT stat depended and allows a novice sorcerer to cast a bigger spell than

#givesorceryachance

Then just ignore it in your games and use your own rules as you suggested. My players get along with it just fine. Enhance INT pretty much gets round this limitation, both of my current sorcery players usually have it running.

[resurrected duck]

Indeed playing a warrior with low STR and CON is not easy. There is a famous example of such warrior in the chaosium pantheon though, namely Elric of Melnibone (STR 5, CON 5). The trick is to use potions, drugs (-> STR 12, STR 12)... and sorcery to raise the characteristics when needed.

[resurrected duck]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about warriors with size 8 and str 8, it is too unfair ! they have damage malus and no access to the most deadly weapons (great sword, etc..)

 

Indeed playing a warrior with low STR and CON is not easy. There is a famous example of such warrior in the chaosium pantheon though, namely Elric of Melnibone (STR 5, CON 5). The trick is to use potions, drugs (-> STR 12, CON 12)... and sorcery to raise the characteristics when needed.

Edited February 26, 2021 by resurrected duck
typo

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I think experienced sorcerers will have created inscriptions for all the spells they know so they can use their full INT to cast them.

Sure, and if they have an INT of 14 they are always behind the curve. Its still possible for a novice sorcerer to cast a bigger spell than an Archmage.

A  size 8 and str 8 weapon master will still beat a size 18 and str 18 novice every time.

[Kloster]

8 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, and if they have an INT of 14 they are always behind the curve.

They will be behind the curve, compared to sorcerors with roughly equivalent experience, but can be leading compared to less experienced sorcerors.

9 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Its still possible for a novice sorcerer to cast a bigger spell than an Archmage.

Yes, they can, ... with a probability of casting the spell of roughly 20%, compared to the 50-90% the master has.

11 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

A  size 8 and str 8 weapon master will still beat a size 18 and str 18 novice every time.

Depends on the armor: Broadsword is 1D8+1. That means an average damage of 4.5+1-2.5=3. That means somebody with 4 AP will be often be hit, but rarely be wounded by the 8 STR 8 SIZ master, and 4 AP is easy to get.

[Godlearner]

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Yes, they can, ... with a probability of casting the spell of roughly 20%, compared to the 50-90% the master has.

Does not really matter since these spells will be cast ahead of time with duration going into days, weeks and longer.

Quote

Depends on the armor: Broadsword is 1D8+1. That means an average damage of 4.5+1-2.5=3. That means somebody with 4 AP will be often be hit, but rarely be wounded by the 8 STR 8 SIZ master, and 4 AP is easy to get.

The armor is not going to matter as the criticals will bypass it

[French Desperate WindChild]

my point is to say the issue is not the int requirement.

if there is something weird , that is more :

roll dices for characteristics AND want to play a specific character (warrior, sorcerer, what you want)

you can choose to let the dices / characteritics decide what type of character you are

or you can choose the type of character, then distribute points for charactics

or of course you can decide that the rules are not good.. for you

 

36 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The armor is not going to matter as the criticals will bypass it

5% chance

[Godlearner]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

5% chance

And Impales 20% chance

[French Desperate WindChild]

so not a great master, isn't it ?

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about warriors with size 8 and str 8, it is too unfair ! they have damage malus and no access to the most deadly weapons (great sword, etc..)

If a warrior's damage was reduced by the number of weapon skills they have learned, then experienced warriors would do less damage than novices. That's the best analogy I can come up with at a moment's notice.

[kr0p0s]

Surely as a sorcery user increases in power they are going to invest POW in inscription to strengthen their magic. Free INT can also be maximised by forgetting and remembering spells. I know this takes time, but sorcery users are not battlefield magic users. They come carefully prepared with combat experts to protect them, if they do every leave their studies, laboratories or places of worship.

[ChrisJ]

I just finished running an all sorc mini campaign - I kept all the other rules for INT the same but set starting Free INT to max human INT (AKA 21).  Worked out pretty well.  Apart from the weekly castings most spells averaged about 14 pts of intensity due to the long casting times.  Two of the Sorcerers had INT 16 - the big impact to these sorc was that they could only have 5 Runes/Techniques, so they had to select their runes carefully, and expect to cast using extra MP for some spells.

Edited February 26, 2021 by ChrisJ

[Runeblogger]

13 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

I just finished running an all sorc mini campaign - I kept all the other rules for INT the same but set starting Free INT to max human INT (AKA 21).  Worked out pretty well.  Apart from the weekly castings most spells averaged about 14 pts of intensity due to the long casting times.  Two of the Sorcerers had INT 16 - the big impact to these sorc was that they could only have 5 Runes/Techniques, so they had to select their runes carefully, and expect to cast using extra MP for some spells.

Wow, that sounds interesting. Would you mind sharing the PCs and a bit more of what was the campaign about, please?

[ChrisJ]

The campaign (I called it "The Moonuments Men") was for 4 Lunar sorcerers sent back to Satar after the dragonrise to recover some artifacts and tomes left behind after the rapid redeployment of the Satar garrison (lets not call it a rout).  One was an Inripi Ontar Worshiper, the other 3 were of sorcerer schools I'd derived (based on HQ material), A lunar College of Magic Sorc, a Macabean Sorc, and a Red Moon Warlock.  They travelled back to Boldhome and their raid on the Satar palace vault coinsided with the disastrous outcome of Kalyr's Lightbringer quest.

[Godlearner]

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I kept all the other rules for INT the same but set starting Free INT to max human INT (AKA 21)

That would be another way to equalize.

Quote

Two of the Sorcerers had INT 16 - the big impact to these sorc was that they could only have 5 Runes/Techniques

Why would this be a limit?

 

EDIT: Never mind:

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For each point of INT above 13, the sorcerer can learn one more Rune or one more technique. 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Godlearner

[ChrisJ]

As per the rules on pg 384

"Mastering New Runes or Techniques

A sorcerer starts by mastering one Rune and one technique, as described in the Philosopher occupation on page 70. A sorcerer must have a minimum INT of 13 to understand one Rune and one technique. For each point of INT above 13, the sorcerer can learn one more Rune or one more technique."

The players in my mini campaign found that the double MP cost of non mastered runes to be a greater impact to them casting spells than the free INT - using a 3 Rune/Technique spell  with at least one rune un-mastered is 4MP+42MP to cast at full intensity, and takes nearly 10 rounds to cast (1Rd + Dex SR + 82SR).  This was not a problem for a weekly boost spell but not something they felt was going to help them in the middle of combat.  In fact a lot of the campaign was setup around them planning their spells to be cast ahead of time in  dark alley's or out of the way rooms.

[Godlearner]

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using a 3 Rune/Technique spell  with at least one rune un-mastered is 4MP+42MP

Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered. 

Based on some interpretations it would 4MP + 28MP. But your point on spell casting in combat is well taken. This is where bound spirits and spirit magic matrices come into play in a big way.  The only way to cast a Sorcery spell in combat would be a two rune/technique spell and with an Intensity of 5 and that would take two rounds.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Godlearner

[ChrisJ]

Indeed we spent several minutes of our session Zero trying to interpret that the text on the spell cost.  The Tables clearly show un-mastered manipulation costing double, and the example shows what happens when missing 1 R/T.  What was most unclear to us was what happened if more than 1 Rune or Tech was missing - in the end we decided to increase the base cost of the spell by 1MP per missing R/T and only double the cost of intensity.

 

As for MP cost - all the PC's had MP matrix or Spirits in POW storage Crystals.  Only 1 of them had a TAP spell (the Macabean had a Tap Moonlight spell similar in Power to the steal Breath spell - although my interpretation of that spell is that the duration only applies to how long excess MP remain available, and only 1d6 comes per round up to the limit of the number of d6 indicated by intensity).

 

We had a lot of fun in the mini-campaign, but have since reverted to their main Satar based characters - albeit with an increased awareness of the abilities of sorcerers.

[Godlearner]

Quote

As for MP cost - all the PC's had MP matrix or Spirits in POW storage Crystals.  Only 1 of them had a TAP spell (the Macabean had a Tap Moonlight spell similar in Power to the steal Breath spell - although my interpretation of that spell is that the duration only applies to how long excess MP remain available, and only 1d6 comes per round up to the limit of the number of d6 indicated by intensity).

Absolutely. MPs for Sorcerers are a must. That is why I added this spell in the JC Denarius the Minter supplement 

AID (Magic, Command)

 

2 pt (Ranged, Instant)

If successful in casting this spell, the caster transfers magic points equal to the spells Intensity to the target of the spell. These magic points can replenish any spent by the target and any additional, above the targets POW, will stick around dissipating at a rate of 1 magic point per 10 minutes. These additional magic points are not added to POW for purposes of defense or offense but can be used to cast spells by the target.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Godlearner

[ChrisJ]

Nice spell - although one can always pass the MP matrix around.