Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

Thank you all for the input on trade. I've got a bunch to go on.

So back to Nochet and Jaja's nice map: Are there any Black Arkat members in Nochet and if so where would they be hiding/hanging out, assuming they are trying to not draw attention to themselves?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Erol of Backford

[Ian_W]

8 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Thank you all for the input on trade. I've got a bunch to go on.

So back to Nochet and Jaja's mice map: Are there any Black Arkat members in Nochet and if so where would they be hiding/hanging out, assuming they are trying to not draw attention to themselves?

If they were anywhere, it would be among trolls of the Shadow Plateau. And they probably aren't talking.

Some of these trolls might be in Nochet.

Note Black Arkat is (a) male, (b) has weird magics, (c) was endarkened in Time and - finally and most importantly - (d) is not a good loyal, obedient son of Kyger Litor who looks after his mother.

 

[Erol of Backford]

Davecake had posted this a while back: The Temple is in Esrolia, near the Building Wall and Arrowmound, and is the fortress of the fortified city of Arkat's Hold.

I just assumed if they were near the Shadow Plateau and the Building Wall/Arkat's Hold there would be some in Nochet as well. Has anyone included them in scenarios in or near Nochet?

[Ian_W]

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Davecake had posted this a while back: The Temple is in Esrolia, near the Building Wall and Arrowmound, and is the fortress of the fortified city of Arkat's Hold.

I just assumed if they were near the Shadow Plateau and the Building Wall/Arkat's Hold there would be some in Nochet as well. Has anyone included them in scenarios in or near Nochet?

How much do you know about Arkat/Nysalor/Gbaji and the fall of the Bright Empire ?

 

Unless you want to learn about another couple of probably false, might be true myth cycles, I'd strongly suggest having a chunk of the Building Wall *named* after Arkat, because he's scary and mythic and hopefully makes the Lunars think twice (*) ... but have no actual link to Arkat.

 

(*) This might have been a spectacular failure, in that the Lunars go 'Fuck. They do have an Arkat. Time to beg for help from Jar-Eel'.

[Ladygolem]

This place might be a good place to look, about halfway between Kimantor's Plaza and the Donandar temple, by the western wall. It's not Black Arkat, but it's somewhere to start.

[Ladygolem]

Spoilers for published RQ:G scenarios:

Spoiler

Also, the House of Black Arkat is described in The Smoking Ruins & Other Stories, specifically the scenario Urvantan's Tower.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Understood that Etyries would flow between Karse and Furthest when Sartar is not at war with the Lunar Empire or after Sartar has been conquered and under the Lunar yoke. 

I am not seeing Etyries traders moving through Central Sartar while the Lunar invasion is in progress, as cities are being overrun, while Lunars move south without being molested?

It's important, I think, not to think of this in a modern war context.  There are invasions, a king and his army are defeated, the invaders set up as new rulers in the capital and/or major cities.  Some tribes join in with the invaders because they offer gifts.  Some don't, and more tribute is demanded of them - and those who seek favor with the new rulers oust the old leaders, and the tribe's lot improves, and trade comes to the tribe.

Also, think about the actual caravan operation.  An Etyries trader sets up and invests in the caravan.  They are not an army of Etyries traders - this is one person who may organize the caravan.  Issaries merchants travel with them, or join the caravan from all over the Empire (Issaries is not a proscribed cult there) and can establish neutral grounds or interact with city-based merchants.  Lokarnos wagoneers may be part of the caravan, too, to drive the carts (unless it's all mules).  And the merchant hires guards, scouts, etc including Humakti and Yelmalions.  These caravans are not going to look any different under Lunar rule than under the rule of the Sartarite kings. 

Is there a potential for greater banditry?  Yes, in some areas, but these are reasons for the caravan leaders to invest in more guards, scouts, and the like, and why they will stick to the Royal Roads.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This makes sense and so the actual evil vile Lunars wouldn't be physically travelling through Sartar. They'd still need to figure out how to cross the "front lines" or "no mans land" with trade goods between where the Lunar forces and the Sartarites are camped...

Again, this is not modern warfare with front lines or no man's land.  This is an army that arrives in a very specific column along a specific path (or possibly a couple paths if trying to get behind the foes), they fight and there is a victor/loser.  The season of warfare is relatively short.  If the invader's succeed, they'll take over running the cities and likely include a garrison.  And then it's back to normal for merchants.

[jajagappa]

50 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there any Black Arkat members in Nochet and if so where would they be hiding/hanging out, assuming they are trying to not draw attention to themselves?

45 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

This place might be a good place to look, about halfway between Kimantor's Plaza and the Donandar temple, by the western wall. It's not Black Arkat, but it's somewhere to start.

Probably yes - and I think the two places most likely are: the Deresagar district among the Ralian community, and in the troll community.  There are unlikely to be any obvious "temples" though.

A common warning about Deresagar outside of that neighborhood:  “The folk of Deresagar are secretive and mysterious and harbor beggars, thieves, and fugitives.  Even dark Arkat has taken residence here.  Don’t walk these streets by night when the shadows linger for like as not you will lose at least your coin, if not your soul.”

As background (and this is the period from ~1590-1623): "Many Ralians have moved in over the last 30 years and live in the vicinity of the Arkat’s Rest, particularly along Stonefish Street, often to the displeasure of the original Esrolian inhabitants who call the Ralians derisive names such as Arkat’s Spawn or Stygians for their suspected ‘dark ways’."

And listed among my rumors for the city: "xx. A shadowy brotherhood devoted to Black Arkat exists in Nochet but the true temple location is hidden [B]"

As @Ladygolem noted, you'll find a place called Arkat's Rest on the map (I've circled/highlighted in the attached).  It might just be an inn/tenement favored by the Ralians.  It might harbor a secret temple or meeting place. 

Or perhaps there are Arkati among the trolls in the Dark Warrens.  The surface of the Dark Warrens just looks like rubble and ruin buried in dirt and debris from the ancient tsunami.  The trolls have tunneled underneath and out of view.  Perhaps a shrine hides within? 

Of course, there is a third place a shrine to Black Arkat might hide in the city:  among the Black Philosophers of the Temple of Knowledge.  But only they know the Truth of that... (and they certainly would not tell the sages of the other rival teachings if they do know).

 

 

[jajagappa]

58 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

If they were anywhere, it would be among trolls of the Shadow Plateau.

There was suggestion at one point in time that a shrine or temple of Black Arkat was hidden among the trolls/Kitori of the Troll Woods.  I don't recall where that reference was, or if even accurate.

[Ian_W]

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There was suggestion at one point in time that a shrine or temple of Black Arkat was hidden among the trolls/Kitori of the Troll Woods.  I don't recall where that reference was, or if even accurate.

Or if it's still there after the God Learners went through the place like ants at a picnic.

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Or if it's still there after the God Learners went through the place like ants at a picnic.

Well, that was 600 years ago.  Even if found and ransacked, plenty of time for Black Arkati to return.

And unclear how far north the God Learners reached.  This was the borderland between the EWF and the God Learners, and likely well hidden by troll magics.

Edited December 19, 2021 by jajagappa

[Alex]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There was suggestion at one point in time that a shrine or temple of Black Arkat was hidden among the trolls/Kitori of the Troll Woods.  I don't recall where that reference was, or if even accurate.

The more the merrier, IMO.  If canon says the placement of a given group of Arkati is Wrong, then it's in good company that every other Arkati will say they're wrong about everything else anyway.

And if there's anything better than Arkat coming back as a troll again, it'd be coming back as two trolls that loathe each other...

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Also, the House of Black Arkat is described in The Smoking Ruins & Other Stories, specifically the scenario Urvantan's Tower.

Ladygolem, that's partly why I was asking, looking for links from Urvantan's Tower to Nochet or other places in the Holy Country...

All, this is good stuff and has many plot links for any PC wanting to "discover" the secrets of Black Arkat. Thanks again!

[dumuzid]

any shrines to Arkat Kingtroll within the Palace of Black Glass were destroyed with it, but there would be more in the caverns beneath the Shadow Plateau.

in 1600 the Darkness power in Esrolia is still very much subordinated to Belintar's system, and while I doubt the Black Arkat suffered the same level of circumscription as the Argan Argar/Ezkankekko complex after Belintar's conquest, among trolls Arkat is a figure tied intrinsically to troll power and sovereignty on the surface--not the sort of influence Belintar ever wanted to let run too freely, even when the Tournament of Luck and Death reincarnated him in a troll body.

Edited December 19, 2021 by dumuzid

[Joerg]

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Would a caravan travel all the way from the Heartlands to Karse, and back?

Occasionally yes, but think of the spread of merchants like the Polo brothers exploring the Silk Road.

 

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

Joerg is wrong here. Merchants regularly travel between Karse and Furthest.

I did not argue against the leg between Karse and Furthest being done by the same caravan - what I argued against was a caravan going from Karse into the Heartlands.

Furthest is the logical trans-shipping point where you switch from animal back or cart to river barge. While the Daughter's Road is equivalent to the Sartar roads (especially the Boldhome-Jonstown stretch), river transport on the Oslir is more convenient and cheaper, at least downriver.

There is a certain likelihood that some of the merchants will accompany the river barges while the caravan makes its return trip to Karse, or to Duck Point for the river route to Nochet.

There is a stretch of inferior roads between Sartar and Tarsh, the least inconvenient being located in Trader's Valley, The alternative routes that bypass Boldhome are a lot less convenient.

 

Cults of Prax even treats the Etyries cult like a subcult of Issaries, especially in the Corflu section of Biturian's travels. The local chief priest of the market has to comply to the Garzeen cult's obligation to carry that bit of hyena skin into the Wastes.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There was suggestion at one point in time that a shrine or temple of Black Arkat was hidden among the trolls/Kitori of the Troll Woods.  I don't recall where that reference was, or if even accurate.

It stems from Troll Gods (Arkat Cult writeup) saying that the House of Black Arkat was in Heortland.  But that seems to have been a thinko for Arkat's Hold which is in Esrolia.  

[Jeff]

17 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Etyries merchants aren't all going to be some sort of Lunar agents. Sure, they're Lunars, but they're civilians not soldiers, and probably pretty neutral as long as the trade routes stay open. Especially with how total warfare isn't really a thing in Glorantha (discounting age-ending cataclysms and such probably) I don't feel like war and trade are as mutually exclusive as they might be in some of our recent big wars.

And during times of war, caravans generally avoid war zones, as that is too much of a financial risk. So during the invasion of 1602 (which lasted a season or so), there weren't Etyries or Issaries caravans active in much of Dragon Pass - they waited until things calmed down. Same with during the two seasons of Starbrow's Rebellion. 

It does make me wonder that perhaps caravan traffic with the Holy Country dropped a lot from 1619-1625. Not because it was oppressed, but because the roads were too dangerous.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

It does make me wonder that perhaps caravan traffic with the Holy Country dropped a lot from 1619-1625. Not because it was oppressed, but because the roads were too dangerous.

It probably divides into 3 distinct periods, each with differing ramifications:

1619-1621: Lunar invasion/siege of Whitewall.  Caravans can still reach Boldhome, but those heading to Nochet are likely diverted through the Grazelands, or come to Duck Point and then transported by the River to Esrolia.  Watch out for the Crimson Bat in 1619.

1621-1622: Great Winter.  Total disruption of trade south of Furthest unless supported by Lunar magic.  

1623-1625: Post-Great Winter.  Trade sporadically restored.  With Siege of Whitewall done, Lunar caravans can reach Karse and then get shipped beyond.  Nochet besieged, so trade caravans might continue down to Durengard/Leskos, or shipments might go to Rhigos instead of Nochet.  Breaking of the Lunar siege/Battle of Pennel opens Nochet back up, but Dragon Pass, Heortland, and the Grazelands all become volatile before the Dragonrise.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It probably divides into 3 distinct periods, each with differing ramifications:

This is great. My initial response to Jeff's speculation was that the caravan lords who run Mother Market would probably have started diversifying their interests around the northern route at an even earlier phase (1600-1605) and then this would accelerate as Heortland spiraled out of control. 

After 1619 I suspect the only people running through any of the northern corridors had some ideological interest in keeping it open . . . play nice with extremely interesting customers in the provinces and beyond, run woad to the rebels under mercantile cover, whatever tickled their fancy.

This probably reflects the internal debate going on inside Mother Market, with some people arguing that it was unwise to annoy the rising lunar power while others wanted to impose sanctions on what was after all an unpredictable and disruptive rival to Nochet, where the fat cats live and which they consider the center of the habitable universe. 

Meanwhile, of course, the opening provides alternatives to the inland routes, diverting capital that would have otherwise been reinvested in the Sartar project and its satellites. Maybe people like Gringle regret decisions made in that era. Either way, enough big money rotates to shipping that the imperial road is largely left to, let's just say, people who are cool with imperial entanglements. True believers and trouble makers crowd into the desert trackers and the trader prince organization or set up crazy new routes on their own. 

Trouble makers who stay on the route to the provinces eventually run into the trouble they made, one way or another. People who grew up in Sartar before the fall look around and see fewer Issaries hats on market day. They assume that the empire has driven the "good" caravans off or that the area has gotten too dangerous for the traders. 

1621-2 is a shock to everyone's complacency, the "black swan event" (technical term in Mother Market divination derived from imarja esoteric cult dogma) the fat cats deploy cash to prevent total system collapse. Some were ready for life after Orlanth . . . we had done it before and will undoubtedly need to do it again some day. Others did the channel checks, ran a few numbers (or in fantasy bronze age terms got high on donkey fumes or whatever) and decided that Orlanth remains the best of all cosmological constants, maximum gini. The "gini jar," if you will. 

These are the guys who opened the warehouses and started funding the rebels in earnest. You started to see very different people on market day. And then after the liberation these are the people who come in to take over guilds and so on. Consensus in Mother Market remains fractious but enough hyenagrams have been delivered that the mood in Nochet shifts.

Edited December 19, 2021 by scott-martin
a little more about heortland would be nice but this is ironically not the occasion

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It probably divides into 3 distinct periods, each with differing ramifications:

1619-1621: Lunar invasion/siege of Whitewall.  Caravans can still reach Boldhome, but those heading to Nochet are likely diverted through the Grazelands, or come to Duck Point and then transported by the River to Esrolia.  Watch out for the Crimson Bat in 1619.

Unless there is a major assault going on, the Lunar siege of Whitewall is a small city on the route which relies on traders and supply trains arriving, from both directions. Traders passing through will not be that strange.

 

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

1621-1622: Great Winter.  Total disruption of trade south of Furthest unless supported by Lunar magic.  

Also because marine travel is hampered because of the inward-blowing winds outside of the Windstop. Sailing to Kethaela has rear winds until the horizon, after that all vessels need to be rowed or towed.

Lunar transportation efforts directed towards the New Temple building site.

Wolf Pirates are mostly absent from Southern Genertelan seas. Locals will step in.

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

1623-1625: Post-Great Winter.  Trade sporadically restored.  With Siege of Whitewall done, Lunar caravans can reach Karse and then get shipped beyond.  Nochet besieged, so trade caravans might continue down to Durengard/Leskos, or shipments might go to Rhigos instead of Nochet.  Breaking of the Lunar siege/Battle of Pennel opens Nochet back up, but Dragon Pass, Heortland, and the Grazelands all become volatile before the Dragonrise.

With the wind patterns restored, traders get to deliver those wares that may have been built up en route. There may be a post-Brexit-like scarcity of transportation. The Karse route will be busy with Lunar supplies to the siege of Nochet, as wlll be the Grazelands route.

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless there is a major assault going on, the Lunar siege of Whitewall is a small city on the route which relies on traders and supply trains arriving, from both directions. Traders passing through will not be that strange.

Except that the North Vale is rather narrow.  During the siege it is occupied by the Lunar camp, so as long as the Lunar officers let the traders and supply trains through, then that works (unless Broyan unleashes attacks from the heights above).  Merchants attempting this route will have to figure on selling goods to the Lunar army first.

The attack on Karse is fairly quick, so effectively the Lunars secure the trade route at that point.  With Hendira as ally, Esrolian goods go to Karse, through the Lunar camp northward.  They have allies in the Sylangi and Locaem to help protect the Royal Road to Boldhome.

 

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless there is a major assault going on, the Lunar siege of Whitewall is a small city on the route which relies on traders and supply trains arriving, from both directions. Traders passing through will not be that strange.

Jeff put preview maps of Whitewall in 1618 & 1625, as @jajagappa said but with a valley full of army too. The only merchants heading towards whitewall are going to supply the besieging forces and their dependants. Anyone else is going to take the long way round. In Dragon pass terms, that will be outside of the ZoC of the siege forces.

Given the terrain, It looks to me that the siege would disrupt a lot of trade trying to avoid Whitewall.

[soltakss]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The only merchants heading towards whitewall are going to supply the besieging forces and their dependants.

Probably whether they wanted to or not.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Jeff put preview maps of Whitewall in 1618 & 1625, as @jajagappa said but with a valley full of army too. The only merchants heading towards whitewall are going to supply the besieging forces and their dependants.

Now post-Dragonrise, Newtown below Whitewall is going to be very, very busy.  And the Olontongi tribe (i.e. the remnants of Broyan's army, former Whitewall residents, etc.) are going to be getting very rich on tariffs and tribute provided by merchants looking to reestablish trade.  And likely hire out "protection" services for the merchants looking to get past the Bacofi, Kultain, Balmyr, and whatever bandits/rebels remain (e.g. Company of the Dragon) on the way to Boldhome.

[Jeff]

18 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is great. My initial response to Jeff's speculation was that the caravan lords who run Mother Market would probably have started diversifying their interests around the northern route at an even earlier phase (1600-1605) and then this would accelerate as Heortland spiraled out of control. 

After 1619 I suspect the only people running through any of the northern corridors had some ideological interest in keeping it open . . . play nice with extremely interesting customers in the provinces and beyond, run woad to the rebels under mercantile cover, whatever tickled their fancy.

This probably reflects the internal debate going on inside Mother Market, with some people arguing that it was unwise to annoy the rising lunar power while others wanted to impose sanctions on what was after all an unpredictable and disruptive rival to Nochet, where the fat cats live and which they consider the center of the habitable universe. 

Meanwhile, of course, the opening provides alternatives to the inland routes, diverting capital that would have otherwise been reinvested in the Sartar project and its satellites. Maybe people like Gringle regret decisions made in that era. Either way, enough big money rotates to shipping that the imperial road is largely left to, let's just say, people who are cool with imperial entanglements. True believers and trouble makers crowd into the desert trackers and the trader prince organization or set up crazy new routes on their own. 

Trouble makers who stay on the route to the provinces eventually run into the trouble they made, one way or another. People who grew up in Sartar before the fall look around and see fewer Issaries hats on market day. They assume that the empire has driven the "good" caravans off or that the area has gotten too dangerous for the traders. 

1621-2 is a shock to everyone's complacency, the "black swan event" (technical term in Mother Market divination derived from imarja esoteric cult dogma) the fat cats deploy cash to prevent total system collapse. Some were ready for life after Orlanth . . . we had done it before and will undoubtedly need to do it again some day. Others did the channel checks, ran a few numbers (or in fantasy bronze age terms got high on donkey fumes or whatever) and decided that Orlanth remains the best of all cosmological constants, maximum gini. The "gini jar," if you will. 

These are the guys who opened the warehouses and started funding the rebels in earnest. You started to see very different people on market day. And then after the liberation these are the people who come in to take over guilds and so on. Consensus in Mother Market remains fractious but enough hyenagrams have been delivered that the mood in Nochet shifts.

This is spot on Scott.