Western Hero Wars Status Quo

[Eff]

A very minor Carmanian note- Carmanos, son of Charmain, might well have a name that's just "Charmain" plus a masculine ending. Perhaps the... whatever the opposite of dismembering the Red Goddess did to turn Doskalos Sword-in-the-Eye into the Red Emperor was something learned in the interim between Four Arrows of Light and Castle Blue, or at Castle Blue.

[Nevermet]

55 minutes ago, Eff said:

A very minor Carmanian note- Carmanos, son of Charmain, might well have a name that's just "Charmain" plus a masculine ending. Perhaps the... whatever the opposite of dismembering the Red Goddess did to turn Doskalos Sword-in-the-Eye into the Red Emperor was something learned in the interim between Four Arrows of Light and Castle Blue, or at Castle Blue.

I completely forgot she was dismembered  - which source is that in?
Dismembering powerful people is a rather significant event in Glorantha, to say the least.  Arkat comes to mind.... it's not the most common thing though

[Eff]

1 minute ago, Nevermet said:

I completely forgot she was dismembered  - which source is that in?
Dismembering powerful people is a rather significant event in Glorantha, to say the least.  Arkat comes to mind.... it's not the most common thing though

Well, what I'm referring to is the transfiguration of one of her demigod children (dead at the time) into, ah, her lingam/animus or a mobile representation of it. So less a dismembering, and more of a... membering? However you wish to put it.

 

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Eff said:

Well, what I'm referring to is the transfiguration of one of her demigod children (dead at the time) into, ah, her lingam/animus or a mobile representation of it. So less a dismembering, and more of a... membering? However you wish to put it.

Related, by @jajagappa: The Death of Jannisor. In which Moonson's uniquely distinguishing characteristic becomes the plaything of the Sable Queen.

[Nevermet]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but Here's a question: How successful is the Reforestation, in terms of re-covering the land with dense, primal forest?

I realize the Aldryami goal is "a new Green Age," but I assume their goal for the initial Reforestation is what Genertela looked like at the Dawn:

 

Now, I'm assuming it isn't quite this successful.  But, one of the interesting things about the Reforestation to me is how much it interrupts the Hero Wars of the silly humans: Carmania (IIRC) is going to want to save Fronelan Lunar cities from the Kingdom of War.... but then the Reforestation pops up.  And in general, how does the Reforestation complicate the War Against War?  It also apparently will disconnect Guhan from Halikiv, and Doraster from Ralios.  Maniria is squashed.  And does the Reforestation reach west enough to frustrate Seshnela? (Probably not, though it will be isolated from some regions)

 

And I realize we've touched on this a bit in both this and other threads, but Reforestation is going to result in death and destabilization for human polities.  Farms will be destroyed wholesale, and I am unsure the entire population will be able to pick up hunting & gathering fast enough.  From a human POV, the Reforestation will be an ecological disaster.  Narratively, it is an out-of-the-blue wrinkle for Western Hero Wars (plus Carmania & Dorastor).

 

EDIT: Also, I'm kinda looking forward to the Char-Un being attacked by trees.  They've earned it.

EDIT EDIT: Plus things will likely be ugly in and around Rist.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Nevermet

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

From a human POV, the Reforestation will be an ecological disaster.

Yes, and they'll turn to 3-4 allies:  trolls (eat those forests!), dwarves (poison and uproot the forests!), possibly giants (stamp down the forests!), and everyone's favorite, Oakfed!  The fires are going to rage across Genertela!

[Nevermet]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, and they'll turn to 3-4 allies:  trolls (eat those forests!), dwarves (poison and uproot the forests!), possibly giants (stamp down the forests!), and everyone's favorite, Oakfed!  The fires are going to rage across Genertela!

For some reason, I didn't think of the giants. 

Also, part of me wants to put on my Aldryami hat and scream, "For Genert's sake!  Y'all should be on our side!!!"

[Nevermet]

(Also, yes.  The Aldryami wear hats.  I don't make the rules)

Edited May 25, 2021 by Nevermet

[scott-martin]

Love it. This opens a lot of deep doors.

The first thing I'd say is that I too own that hat and maybe if enough of us work together we can get the results we want. But MGF whispers that the forests aren't united in their long-term agenda here. Yeah, reforestation is great (why we live in Maine) but they've tried it before and it didn't work. A lot of Elder Race mentality is a struggle between what we can call "neurotic" stereotyped patterns and the temptation to try something new for once. Some forests are only thinking as far as trying it again because maybe it will work this time. Others can learn . . . and they can take divergent lessons from the experience.

We see this divergence in place by the Dawn when the Western Rockwoods force a primal split and the southern woodland starts developing separately from the forests surrounding Nida and the northern forest on the far side. You already have the primal split between Green and Brown at this stage, which they don't like to talk about except in simplifications and lies for children, which is what we are. IMG none of them is "the" original forest but they all claim to inherit the original type. Other hat wearers will naturally disagree, proving my point.

So in this scenario simply sprouting all the seeds at once is only the initial phase of the plan all forests participating in the Quest signed off on. After that, things get weird and fractious when formerly isolated trees that had to communicate through dreams and intermediaries are once again in direct ecological contact. Hellwood's historical experience is not pleasant or forgiving. They're going to kill a lot of people. Arstola may be more conflicted and Erontree and Ballid's objectives may simply be too internally focused to fathom at this time. 

TLDR I think every forest will make its own choice and it will be exciting, but ultimately much of the new growth will be as transient as the illusory New Tama Forest the raccoons in one of my favorite movies conjure up as a last gesture and really not as a viable strategy at all. 

It's a dream experience for the meat people caught up in it, a chance to reflect on the Green Age one last time before we all move into the future. A gift. A revelation. Of course in the middle, it does interrupt and complicate the hero wars tension as you say. 

It's their nature. Unlike dwarves or trolls we still live in a symbiosis with trees to this day. Obviously some forests would not be happy with the current system but that dispute has been going on since Green / Brown if not earlier. I think of the various raccoon coping strategies, the suicide bombers, the pure land voyage, amusement park scams, moonlit urban raves. 

But that's just me. Sandy seems to believe the northern reforestation happens as a sort of intermission after the supposed End Of War and before the repercussions. Those people have historically worked with hsunchen. From your notes, this might be what motivates the Lunar elites to march down the Janube bearing burn in their wake. If Kartolin closes they need to open another route to whatever their secret interest in this part of the world is revealed to be.

Then you come to the "enchanted" and estranged Forest of Kanthor, which has already grown itself back and is pursuing its ancient mysteries . . . foreshadowing the larger grow, an experiment or shape of things to come, we'll find out. The local elves had a curious aloof relationship with the lion kingdoms even in Hrestol's day and the Dawn map you show is evocative. I've always thought Seshna and Aldrya were direct competitors so the forest split early on between lion territory and elf territory. 

Froalar's heirs inherited the Seshna banner. The Talar Of The West carries an axe. As for fire, "give me fuel," Metallica says. Horrifying to some but morel, aspen and others have seen it all before.

Edited May 25, 2021 by scott-martin

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Then you come to the "enchanted" and estranged Forest of Kanthor, which has already grown itself back and is pursuing its ancient mysteries . . . foreshadowing the larger grow, an experiment or shape of things to come, we'll find out.

Strange purple trees and forests?  Influenced by the Luathan to feed upon the blood of Man and give the land a twilit glow...  Something not even the aldryami were expecting, perhaps.

[Nevermet]

23 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

TLDR I think every forest will make its own choice and it will be exciting, but ultimately much of the new growth will be as transient as the illusory New Tama Forest the raccoons in one of my favorite movies conjure up as a last gesture and really not as a viable strategy at all. 

My knowledge is anchored in Maniria, which is a very different experience for the Aldryami than Ralios or Fronela.

However, in Maniria?  IMG, the Arstola Forest is dominated by a regime of Mreli who have learned much from watching the Gbaji Wars, the Godlearners of Slontos, the Only Old One, and Belintar.  For Arstola, the Reforestation is an act of not just ecological growth, but military expansion.  Push the Mostali into the earth, send the Uz back to Hell, and humans are either to be subjugated or dispatched.  According to the Guide, the New Forest isn't just inconvenient to land use but is "hostile to dwarves, trolls, and most humans." (emphasis mine).

Dissension among the Aldryami in Maniria take two forms.  First, I doubt that Tarinwood will perfectly share Arstola's plans.  Second, and more interesting for campaigns, the Trader Princes have two strong points of contact with the Elves: The isolated but powerful fortress of Tallcastle, kept safe by sacred agreements its humans dare not break; and Yolanda, named after Caselein the Traveller's Vronkali (not Mreli) wife and where she raised their daughter.  ...I strongly suspect that Tallcastle, Yolanda, and the Arstola leadership will not all have the same vision for Reforestation.

 

But I at least have an inkling of how this plays out in Maniria.  I have next to no idea how this plays our in Ralios, Fronela, or Carmania.

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Strange purple trees and forests?  Influenced by the Luathan to feed upon the blood of Man and give the land a twilit glow...  Something not even the aldryami were expecting, perhaps.

According to the Guide, the Reforestation magic required seeds acquired from across the world, all brought back to Arstola.  Figuring out how to travel to Teshnos and Pamaltela may prove difficult and require bargains with some unsavory folk.

 

And who are the most unsavory, but who are always ready to make a deal?  I'm sure the Vadeli would be all too happy to help.

 

EDIT: Correction - the Reforestation did not require seeds from Pamaltela, but they did need to get to Teshnos, which probably implies seafaring.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Nevermet

[Nick Brooke]

Right, I’ve been meaning to say this for a while, but got distracted.

Much earlier, in this or a related thread, somebody talked about how the Loskalmi have to set us up the Doomsday Bomb to take out the Kingdom of War some time real soon now, to clear the decks for proper Western Hero Wars to begin.

The heartland of the Kingdom of War used to be the Black Forest.

So what if the God Learner Doomsday Weapon is what wakes it up, and that’s the first domino of the Reforestation? Black Forest Ents tearing down the Kingdom of War. Black Forest Reforestation sprouting everywhere within its borders.

After which the Aldryami Gardeners reverse-bioengineer whatever the hell it was the Jrusteli did to that tainted Shanassee Seed (possibly sending green elf special forces into a hostile troll-haunted Forest to reclaim it)...

And then it all kicks off everywhere, once the new tech is spread by Elfsense across the continent.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[Snugz]

3 hours ago, Nevermet said:

EDIT: Correction - the Reforestation did not require seeds from Pamaltela, but they did need to get to Teshnos, which probably implies seafaring.

Maybe no longer (to be) canon, but maybe who cares-- [SPOILER]

Spoiler

The elves are on the Boat Planet in Gathering Thunder and leap off early on, to do some secret quest at Flowers constellation, so yes they're gathering seeds, from "seafaring", and in the Sky Realm. (I do wonder if this is White Elf resurrection stuff too?)

 

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The heartland of the Kingdom of War used to be the Black Forest.

So what if the God Learner Doomsday Weapon is what wakes it up, and that’s the first domino of the Reforestation? Black Forest Ents tearing down the Kingdom of War. Black Forest Reforestation sprouting everywhere within its borders.

After which the Aldryami Gardeners reverse-bioengineer whatever the hell it was the Jrusteli did to that tainted Shanassee Seed (possibly sending green elf special forces into a hostile troll-haunted Forest to reclaim it)...

I love the "Black Forest Ents" tearing down the Kingdom of War.  Conjures up all sorts of fantastic scenes, but perhaps not what the Arstola elves envisioned (and a new opportunity for bio-wars between competing reforestations).

[scott-martin]

7 hours ago, Snugz said:

(I do wonder if this is White Elf resurrection stuff too?)

Love it. This is our last chance to see White Elf stuff, so why not have someone try to bring them back. 

Ditto all the detailed Elf Boats (and Blue Elf) lore that has circulated over the years but rarely found a home in the contemporary setting. Once they take to the sea again they are unlikely to abandon it immediately and we have a few decades to fill.

[Nevermet]

9 hours ago, Snugz said:

Maybe no longer (to be) canon, but maybe who cares-- [SPOILER]

  Hide contents

The elves are on the Boat Planet in Gathering Thunder and leap off early on, to do some secret quest at Flowers constellation, so yes they're gathering seeds, from "seafaring", and in the Sky Realm. (I do wonder if this is White Elf resurrection stuff too?)

 

Because I am silly, I am now thinking about Gloranthan Spelljammer.

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Love it. This is our last chance to see White Elf stuff, so why not have someone try to bring them back. 

Ditto all the detailed Elf Boats (and Blue Elf) lore that has circulated over the years but rarely found a home in the contemporary setting. Once they take to the sea again they are unlikely to abandon it immediately and we have a few decades to fill.

I admit that I don't really have a solid grasp on White Elfs, Blue Elfs, and Elf Boats

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

solid grasp on White Elfs, Blue Elfs, and Elf Boats

Who does?!  (except maybe Shannon)

White elves - unknown type of "tree" that lived near the peak of the Spike.  Might be some in the Sky Realm still.  Maybe they are some sort of crystalline or light reflecting trees?  Or maybe they have gold or silver bark and fruit?  Something fantastic, associated with light.

Blue elves - we know a bit more since they are described in both the old RQ3 Bestiary and IIRC the new RQG Bestiary.  Think seaweed and kelp forests.  They are aquatic, but I think have both salt- and fresh-water varieties.  The fresh-water types might be associated with great lily-pad type plants.

Elf boats - described in various ship articles (originally Heroes magazine).  Grown from special trees with great leafy sails.

[Nevermet]

Also, skimming the Guide, here are some other ways the Reforestation could intersect with western Hero Wars:

• Hezel Darong
  • a new (?) chaos goddess and her followers invade Karia
  • A new Elven forest may actually be seen as the cavalry arriving against this enemy, as opposed to attacking humanity.
• Garundyer & the Throne Kings Alliance
  • I don't know Garundyer very well, but a hero looking to revitalize Orlanth worship and open up High Llama Pass to increased travel will likely not be a fan of The Reforestation
• The 5 Arkats
  • I doubt but am unsure that any of the Arkats will really be pro-Reforestation.  Some may be more actively opposed, however.  Arkat the Troll will likely not be a huge fan.  I forget if Arkat the Peacemaker returns, but if he does, he could be reasonably ok with Reforestation under the right circumstances.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Who does?!  (except maybe Shannon)

White elves - unknown type of "tree" that lived near the peak of the Spike.  Might be some in the Sky Realm still.  Maybe they are some sort of crystalline or light reflecting trees?  Or maybe they have gold or silver bark and fruit?  Something fantastic, associated with light.

Blue elves - we know a bit more since they are described in both the old RQ3 Bestiary and IIRC the new RQG Bestiary.  Think seaweed and kelp forests.  They are aquatic, but I think have both salt- and fresh-water varieties.  The fresh-water types might be associated with great lily-pad type plants.

Elf boats - described in various ship articles (originally Heroes magazine).  Grown from special trees with great leafy sails.

Worth noting that while White Elves were Aldryami (descendants of Aldrya, "true elves"), the Blue Elves are not, they get their name because they are roughly analogous Plant Rune/Flamal being, but they descend from Triolina. I'm mentioning this because this might influence how they play into the whole Reforestation thing. Or maybe not, idk.

[Richard S.]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Worth noting that while White Elves were Aldryami (descendants of Aldrya, "true elves"), the Blue Elves are not, they get their name because they are roughly analogous Plant Rune/Flamal being, but they descend from Triolina. I'm mentioning this because this might influence how they play into the whole Reforestation thing. Or maybe not, idk.

I thought the white elves were children of the elven sun god?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Who does?!  (except maybe Shannon)

White elves - unknown type of "tree" that lived near the peak of the Spike.  Might be some in the Sky Realm still. 

There are four in the Eleven Lights p138

[Sir_Godspeed]

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I thought the white elves were children of the elven sun god?

Could very well be Aldrya and Halamalo, but afaik they ARE Aldryami, unlike the Blue and Black Elves.

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Could very well be Aldrya and Halamalo, but afaik they ARE Aldryami, unlike the Blue and Black Elves.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/aldryas-own-story/

This at least lists them as children of Halamdrya, distinct from Aldrya's children.