The Moon (the Element, and the cultural impact)

[soltakss]

I have never liked the "We just kill them" approach to things. 

Someone having a Moon Rune could call it the Rune of Balance, as Balance is a property of Moon. so, it is the balance of being with us and them, rather than being us or them. That, to me, is a good starting point for an interesting story.

Having an Adventurer choose the Moon Rune and then telling the Player that "Oh, Sartarites kill anyone with the Moon rune as part of their initiation rites" is dull, boring and not good storytelling to me.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

This isn’t the first time I’ve said “fuck that” to a poorly-conceived notion introduced to Glorantha by HeroQuestWorldWars, and I doubt it’ll be the last. But it’s certainly one of the heartiest.

In the context of the Lunar conquest and no indigenous Moon deities, a Moon rune is de facto a Lunar, and the Lunars traffic in Chaos, which is just facts.

This wasn't the case before, and wouldn't be the case if there was an alternative if there were non-Lunar Moon cults for loyalist Orlanthis to join.

But there aren't, so a Moon rune Orlanthi amongst loyalists is just literally a time bomb. The Orlanthi tribes are fighting for their lives, it's no wonder they would execute such an individual.

Maybe you could have such a thing - sorcerous irregulars, Praxian star cultists, the like - that provide a safe resistance network. Denial of an entire facet of the soul is a dangerous path to walk, and we know that there are non-Lunar Moon cults around (sadly, the Annillan orthodoxy are aligned with the Lunar Empire at this time).

I'd suggest the best solution to our conundrum is to find a Lunar-ly incorruptible cult for loyalist Orlanthis to join. I suspect there was outbreaks of youth murders of Moon runes, and this was so unpleasant that the alternative - a new foreign cult adopted to Orlanthi needs by Heroquest - was deemed acceptable.

What alternate Moon cults are around that could be Orlanthied?

Edited June 28, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[Akhôrahil]

I’m not sure what an ”awakened Moon rune” means in an RQ context (in HQ, it would presumably mean at least having a Moon rune keyword (and probably being part way to Sevening), which means you’re using Moon-based magic - compare with how in tCS your initiation can get hijacked by Cacodemon). The games model the world in different ways, and it reasonably can’t be just having a rating in the Moon rune in RQ - The World Is Made Of Everything, so even a staunch traditionalist could hardly argue (within the RQ context where Moon is a proper Rune, rather than a debatable one as in HQ) that the mere presence of Moon is an abomination (the way a Chaos rune would be). I can’t imagine anyone making a huge fuss about a moderate elemental Rune rating, whether it’s Moon among the Orlanthi or a Yelmalion having some percentage in Darkness. Perhaps not ideal, but it’s far too common to do anything about.

Pethaps it’s Illumination, assuming you somehow picked it up during initiation and it’s detectable. Perhaps it’s a Moon rune of 80+%, something that would be rare coming straight out of Initiation. I’m not sure - it may not even have an analogue. The closest thing to the HQ interpretation would be if you somehow emerged from initiation with access to Lunar magic, but that’s not how the system usually works.

And yeah, I totally believe that people born with or coming out of initiation with a Chaos rune get killed then and there, even if they haven’t done anything wrong. With or without Storm Bulls present.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And yeah, I totally believe that people born with or coming out of initiation with a Chaos rune get killed then and there, even if they haven’t done anything wrong.

So, you are not a fan of the idea of a child being sheltered by parents, maybe locked away or kept from outsiders, due to being cursed by chaos? Or a warrior able to live with the chaos gift he received on a HeroQuest, steadfastly fighting the forces of chaos yet secretly bearing his own gift?

Shame, as I love those kind of stories.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, you are not a fan of the idea of a child being sheltered by parents, maybe locked away or kept from outsiders, due to being cursed by chaos? Or a warrior able to live with the chaos gift he received on a HeroQuest, steadfastly fighting the forces of chaos yet secretly bearing his own gift?

Shame, as I love those kind of stories.

Oh, I was thinking the former as I wrote the post - I'm certain both that this has happened and that there are stories about how poorly it goes (in order to make parents agree to the social norm of killing them).

The second, not so much (I think it lessens it if Chaos is something you can just live with), although I could instead see the story of getting tainted and having to hurry against all odds to get it cleansed before it corrupts you (this is possible but super difficult, it seems), or seeking a glorious death in battle to spare your clan from your monstrosity.

I still think the norm is Chaos = Kill, and for good reasons!

Edited June 29, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, you are not a fan of the idea of a child being sheltered by parents, maybe locked away or kept from outsiders, due to being cursed by chaos? Or a warrior able to live with the chaos gift he received on a HeroQuest, steadfastly fighting the forces of chaos yet secretly bearing his own gift?

Shame, as I love those kind of stories.

How can you have those stories without the default option being to kill or outlaw them?

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(in HQ, it would presumably mean at least having a Moon rune keyword (and probably being part way to Sevening), which means you’re using Moon-based magic - compare with how in tCS your initiation can get hijacked by Cacodemon).

No. You can have the Rune and as it's not part of a cult, you use it as basic magic. You can augment with it (same as RQG), but you can't use it directly. You can make a breakout that you could use directly, even though you are not part of a Lunar cult. See HQG page 133. So you could have Moon breakouts associated with Illusion, cycles, balance. eg.

Moon rune 1W

• Feel Tides +1
• Glamorous +1
• Calm Rage +1

To use the moon rune directly, you need to join a Lunar cult. Same as RQG - want Lunar rune magic, then join a cult.

There's a clear distinction here between Moon magic and Lunar magic.

This was a big thing for the Hungry Plateau Sables, as until the revelation they were using Moon magic, after Lunar magic. The Praxian sables, were using moon magic until the Hungry Plateau Sables arrived in Prax in the form of the Antelope Lancers.

[Eff]

So I think the best way to assimilate this element is to ignore it outright, but perhaps there's something of interest in the thought that sometimes children come out of initiation members of unusual cults. Of course, I'm not sure what Moon cult they'd be joining spontaneously- probably not Red Goddess or the Blue Moon, unlikely to be any of the Seven Mothers cults before the Lunarization of Tarsh... Possibly we'd be looking at one of the marginal cults of the ancient Moon goddesses in another guise. 

Say, isn't there a cult of a hunting-associated goddess related to Odayla? I wonder if the Lady of the Wild cult was a convenient stopping point for spontaneous Moon-related initiations...

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

How can you have those stories without the default option being to kill or outlaw them?

Stories don't need internal logic.

[dumuzid]

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

What alternate Moon cults are around that could be Orlanthied?

IMG this is the role of the White Moon Movement, at least in the Zola Fel region after the Liberation, but from that position it seems likely to spread with Argrath's direct influence.

In my version of the Liberation of Pavis a significant component of the White Bull Society's winning coalition was White Moon exiles and renegades from the empire; post-Liberation they've received the king's approval to take over the Seven Mothers temple in New Pavis.  They paid a tithe in secrets to the White Bull, and will likely prove key to establishing the first Temples of the Reaching Storm as the Hero Wars progress.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

What alternate Moon cults are around that could be Orlanthied?

Shamanism.

You don't need an explicit theistic cult.  Harking back to RQ2, Moon is considered by some a Condition Rune, by some a Form Rune, and by some an Element.  The last are the cults of the Lunar Empire (or the Blue Moon).  But the first two suggest the linkages that Moon has to the characteristics of POW and CHA within an individual.  And interestingly, those are the two characteristics most important for the shaman.

Also personality traits such as Dreamer, Visionary, etc. also align with shamanism.

So those who manifest strongly during initiation towards the Moon element are likely seen as potential shaman candidates.  Their other Runes may suggest the shamanic path (Kolat, Earth Witch, etc.) or perhaps they simply align most strongly with the Spirit Realm in general.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Stories don't need internal logic.

Isn’t that exactly what they need? It’s external logic that’s optional.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Say, isn't there a cult of a hunting-associated goddess related to Odayla? I wonder if the Lady of the Wild cult was a convenient stopping point for spontaneous Moon-related initiations...

I think the identification of The Lady of the Wild with Orogeria is questionable, but that’s never stopped anyone…

[Joerg]

The one lunar constant in Glorantha seem to be the tides, but that isn't really meaningful to the Sartarite highlanders.

Annilla's myths make her the spouse of Lorion (and thereby Sky River Titan/Engizi), which might give the river worshipers a tentative link to a lunar goddess. The Blue Moon suffered from many attackers, and its surface world empire had an unfortunate lack of distance from chaos in the later phase of the Gods War, too. She also is a guardian of secrets, which might open a connection via the knowledge cult.

Orlanth conquered the heavens in the Gods War, and even led a successful defence of the heavens against Tyram and his Chaos invaders - his one major win in a direct confrontation with Chaos. That activity may have brought the Blue Streak under his reign.