What can an initiate NOT do without a priest?

[Squaredeal Sten]

What can an initiate not do without a priest?  Or without a temple or at least a shrine?  Under RQiG?

Picking this up from another thread, where it was off-topic from the original post-

It seemed to me that the answer is:

A] Initiate people. 

B] Teach magic (not ignoring the fact that a shaman can also teach spirit magic), which I (but not everyone) think includes the Rune magic sequence in which an initiate sacrifices POW and learns a new rune spell as well as increasing rune points..

C] It is not necessary to have a priest to replenish rune points, nor to be at a temple, though it certainly helps..

It's in four places in RQiG, but it's all there, see if you agree with my reading:

The hard part of Replenishment is not the location, it's the day:  On p.315: "...in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points."  The "on a holy day" part does not seem to me to be severable from the other requirements.  So that seems to me to be the most restrictive part of the formula.  Not that I haven't participated in fudging it in a game, but that's Rules As Written. 

Location seems to me to be easy: (pp.244-246) A worship ritual must be held at a sanctified place, either a shrine/temple etc OR use the Sanctify rune spell.  And you can replenish rune points on Sanctified ground or at a Site, as well as at the bigger shrines and Temples. 

The unique thing that the temple does for you is allow you to sacrifice POW to get additional rune points and learn new rune spells. (p.284).  A shrine lets you get access to one specific rune spell.  So it seems to me you can't do this at all at a Sanctified roadside spot.

The Sanctify spell description specifically says you can use it (the Sanctified location) to replenish rune points.

The worship roll requirement is not really very restrictive:

A temple and/or holy day and/or sacrifice  allows improving the % you roll to succeed in worship (p.315-316).  

Pp.245-246 say you can also improve that % chance of success in worship (or any other magical activity) by using meditation OR ritual preparation (but not both).

P.315 goes on to say that even on a worship failure, you get at least some rune points replenished in some circumstances:  In Sacred time;  on a high holy day, or a seasonal holy day for your own cult.   (But only at worship with your own cult, not with  associated cults - that takes success in the Worship.)

Nowhere do I see a clear requirement that only priests can lead worship.  We know god-talkers also can, and god-talkers can be initiates (p.278).  And if you read the description of initiates p.274-275, it says they must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice magic points during rituals, and they are required to take a role in rituals and the cult will teach them worship.  Good  teaching involves practical exercise, and it's the worshipper's rolls that gets them  MP replenishment, not the priest's roll.  So clearly the mere initiate does perform worship.  Does the absence of a priest get the initiate off the hook for this duty of worship?

What authorities seem to be unique to priests are that they can initiate; and can teach spells, including teaching sacrifice of POW for rune spells.  And some rune spells seem phrased such that only priests will have them. 

It seems to me to be implied that priests will be the teachers of cult lore and worship skills, and will lead and organize Sacred Time ceremonies.  P.275 "the secrets of the deity are revealed to the world through the priesthood."

And i note the addition by  Baron Wufraed, that

"You missed page 184 under "sacrifice" (italics mine)

Quote

* Magic Points: Initiates and Rune Masters must sacrifice at least 2 magic points during a Worship
ritual to their deity. No dice roll is necessary for that sacrifice. For each additional magic point sacrificed, they get a +10% bonus to their Worship skill during that ritual. Magic points sacrificed
regenerate normally.

So, assuming a character with basic Worship skill (5% base, typical +20% from cult initiation, +5 for skill/characteristic bonus => 30%), 2MP required for Worship, 7 additional MPs for %increase, gives one a total %age of 100 -- you'd have to really fumble the roll to fail. For many characters most of the MP sacrificed will be regained by the end of the Worship day.

Addendum: One could interpret the clause on page 185 ("An adventurer gets a bonus to their Worship skill by performing the ritual on a date sacred to the deity:") to imply that one /could/ perform the Worship on ANY day of the week."

And that same date point is where I participated in fudging it -

Shiningbrow is not so sure as I that a priest is needed to sacrifice POW / learn rune magic:

"I'm not sure that's true. In looking at p313, there is no mention of intervention or support by a priest (or other Rune Master).

Also, I think it unlikely that shrines that give Rune Spells will usually be supported by a priest, and thus the Initiate is probably going to have to do it all themselves.

(Yes, this is mixing the RP increase and the gaining of a new spell)"

 

RQiG P.284 seems to me to be the key: that's where the book talks about gaining access to new rune spells 'at the temple", and the shrine clause is lower down.  I do admit that doesn't say "with instruction by a priest". 

Am I unjustified in extrapolating to rune magic from spirit magic, where p.277 in the chapter on rune cults says about spirit magic "The priest performs a ritual in a holy place... this occupies a week of ritual and training during which nothing else may be done except for eating and sleeping."?

I don't think I am unjustified in that extrapolation, because p.313 at the beginning of the rune magic chapter says "A cult member may sacrifice additional points of POW to the deity, increasing the number of Rune points with the deity and gaining greater access to cult special magic.  The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer  and meditation in the temple.  ...."  [emphasis is mine].  I admit it doesn't say straight out that a priest supervises and conducts this.  But I envision learning a new Rune spell as being trained in the mythical connection to one of your god's deeds involving / acquiring that spell.  Maybe that's just me, but I interpret 'in the temple' as not just meaning to be at the physical location, but also involving the instruction available there. 

It would make an interesting adventure for an adventurer to re-open and rehabilitate  a shrine whose priest or god-talker had been killed, overrun by broos and scorpion men.  Is the single rune magic spell obtainable there, a function of the site?  Or of the priest / god-talker who used to be there? 

Does the adventurer have to do anything special to become the proprietor of the shrine? It says that to tend a site gives the benefit of replenishing rune points there (p.315).   God-talkers "are often the only people to tend shrines"   and it seems to me that they need appointment to "vacancies", referred to on p.278.  I would think he or she might have to get the blessing of the temple to take up a god-talker position.  Is it that way in your Glorantha?  But on the other hand, in case of disaster maybe just cleansing the place and resuming sacrifice of MPs there would be enough to restore the shrine to functionality.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
assembling items from previous thread

[Baron Wulfraed]

Since the presence of a priest is implied by being in a significant temple (vs shrine), the "location" bonus may subsume the priest's contribution in leading the /ritual/ (I'm separating out the ceremonial aspects from "worship" which is an individual procedure).

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

which I (but not everyone) think includes the Rune magic sequence in which an initiate sacrifices POW and learns a new rune spell as well as increasing rune points..

As Rune magic/spells are about becoming one with your deity (effectively channeling or becoming a mini-avatar of the deity), I don't think of them in the same way as learning a spirit magic spell.  The instantaneous quality of the Rune magic also suggests that you are becoming your god for that instant, not casting a spell. 

A see the actions effectively requiring time for meditating upon the stories/myths of the god.  Perhaps you start by readings of the myths, but then you withdraw to pray and meditate, seeing yourself as your god, feeling the god channeled through you, and when ready, releasing a portion of your soul to the deity so that they can "enter" you when you call upon them.  The "learning" a new Rune spell is thus allowing the god to channel through you or you to connect more fully with the god in a way you had not previously done.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The unique thing that the temple does for you is allow you to sacrifice POW to get additional rune points and learn new rune spells. (p.284).  A shrine lets you get access to one specific rune spell.  So it seems to me you can't do this at all at a Sanctified roadside spot.

The reason the size of the temple is important in gaining a new Rune spell is because you are connecting to a greater aspect of your deity (more "masks" of the deity if you will).  The limited power invoked at a sanctified roadside spot, or a shrine, only connects you to a small portion of the deity.  While you can extend your connection to the deity (sacrifice some of your soul to increase your connection - i.e. gain Rune points), you may only find Orlanth, Master of the Wind, when you do so, not the many masked Lord of Storm.  As you attend larger temples with larger worship services, more of the deity is able to come closer to you, and even enter into you, imbuing you with a greater array of their essence.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The limited power invoked at a sanctified roadside spot, or a shrine, only connects you to a small portion of the deity.  While you can extend your connection to the deity (sacrifice some of your soul to increase your connection - i.e. gain Rune points), you may only find Orlanth, Master of the Wind, when you do so, not the many masked Lord of Storm. 

On the flip side, a shrine might be uniquely specialized. Perhaps this is the only one in the world that knows the secret of Orlanth Frog-of-Thunder?

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Since the presence of a priest is implied by being in a significant temple (vs shrine), the "location" bonus may subsume the priest's contribution in leading the /ritual/ (I'm separating out the ceremonial aspects from "worship" which is an individual procedure).

Makes sense to me.  A sensible Initiate should welcome the priest's expertise in doing the rite right.  After all he's the pro -  do you go to a dentist, or fill your own teeth?

But in that case in my draft shrine/temple re-opening scenario, outlined above, the site would lack that expertise -  so would you say the rune spells available there would be more limited under the new management?

However there is another aspect to this;  Glorantha's 'bronze age' feel.  What I have read and heard of Real World bronze age religions - and iron age too, extending into Christianity - is that priests were the intermediaries between god and man.  That was just the assumption.  For the ordinary man there was little of this "personal relationship with god" stuff: That is mostly from the European Christian reformation, it's 1400 AD thinking and not 4000 BC.  A prophet or a hero might have a "personal relationship" with / be favored by his god.  If you weren't claiming to be a prophet or a hero, keep your mouth shut.  (Of course we know our Gloranthan player characters are all heroes in waiting.)  So the idea that you would be just as well off if you left the priest out of your ceremony or sacrifice would strike the Bronze Age person as absurd.  Everyone knew it didn't work that way.  You might just as well leave the prayers out of your physician's prescription!

I am not saying that your bronze age / iron age man couldn't see sacrificing if there was no priest and there was a need.  The head of a household or of a clan might take that role for a family rite.  I am definitely not saying that there was necessarily some super magical qualification for a priest:  i know that for the Romans, election was enough:  If you were elected priest of Jupiter, you did the job.  No theological seminary appears to have been necessary.   Just being of the Patrician class and duly elected and anointed.   https://www.grunge.com/287952/inside-julius-caesars-connection-to-priesthood/    And in  other (monarchist) polities where  king was also priest, it appears that royalty was achieved in the usual ways: inheritance, politics, and violence; not in a seminary.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, my nemesis.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It seemed to me that the answer is

Nice summary (if we can call 2 pages of text that! 🙂 ) of the situation, thanks!

Regarding sacrificing POW for more Rune Points, my reading of p313 ("The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple.") is that "temple" here is the generic term, so it includes shrines and sites, as per p284. This would NOT include a Sanctified area, IMHO, but who knows (and that's why some RPGs use italicized or bold gameplay terms, folks!). As such, the "need" of a priest or god-talker is sort of implied, as @Baron Wulfraed said, since you get bonuses and access to more Rune Spells by going to a bigger temple (one that is staffed by more priests).

I think that in your "reopening case", assuming it's a shrine (site is too small, minor temple is a whole different business), I would let the player pick the Rune spell being offered, based on a spell their Adventurer often uses, or based on what the Adventurer did to re-open the shrine (either some badassery against the Chaos creatures who had overrun the shrine, or something that happened in the heroquest that re-opened the shrine). Shrines are "usually staffed only by a god-talker" so I would promote the Adventurer to god-talker (if they're just an initiate) after some audience with the nearest High Priest, and require of course that they indeed take care of the shrine as expected (time, resources, etc).

Edited August 9, 2021 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Am I unjustified...

No, not at all. But neither is the opposite unjustified.

Also, you forgot Rune Lords can also lead worship services (although, personally, I see them more as doing so as the big special guest in a service mostly run - MCed, if you will - by the priest).

I would also expect cult skills, including Worship and Cult Lore to be taught by God Talkers (and rarely, by a Rune Lord... Again, special guest type of thing). Since GTs and Priests have the same requirements, they should be equally capable.

It does raise one question... Since a God Talker is equally competent as a Priest, if you decide that it requires instruction from the "priesthood" (and I would include God Talkers as part of the priesthood, effectively), then couldn't they also instruction/support the Initiate in the corresponding meditation etc for learning a new Rune Spell? (Since spell teaching here is a holy rite, they're not the different)

 

(BTW, I see God Talkers as more like a volunteer priest... Someone who has most of the capabilities, but the temple doesn't want to pay them to keep them on full time. I also think the requirements (identical to priests) are too high... At least remove/reduce the POW requirement).

[Arcadiagt5]

I think there’s an unspoken limitation on Sanctify that's similar to the clarification on Extension in the Rune Fixes. (There’s something similar with Warding as well)

Specifically: if you have a Rune Spell continuing past a holy day with Extension, you cannot recover the rune points for either the base spell or the Extension. The spell has to finish before worship can be conducted to regain those rune points (ditto for a warding where you don’t collect the wands to break the warding, it remains in perpetuity otherwise & those points also can’t be recovered).

So, how do you create a Sanctified roadside location? With a Rune Spell.

Is the spell still running when you use the sanctified spot for worship? I'll have to check, but I think so.

So can you recover the Rune Points used to cast the Sanctify? Again I'll have to check, but I don’t think so. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

I think there’s an unspoken limitation on Sanctify that's similar to the clarification on Extension in the Rune Fixes. (There’s something similar with Warding as well)

Specifically: if you have a Rune Spell continuing past a holy day with Extension, you cannot recover the rune points for either the base spell or the Extension. The spell has to finish before worship can be conducted to regain those rune points (ditto for a warding where you don’t collect the wands to break the warding, it remains in perpetuity otherwise & those points also can’t be recovered).

So, how do you create a Sanctified roadside location? With a Rune Spell.

Is the spell still running when you use the sanctified spot for worship? I'll have to check, but I think so.

So can you recover the Rune Points used to cast the Sanctify? Again I'll have to check, but I don’t think so. 

Actually it was updated and defined clearly in the Red Book of Magic p.76.   "When the ceremonies cease, the spell effects expire."  And "Cult members can perform ceremonies within a Sanctified area as if it were a temple, such as replenishing Rune points."

So it doesn't require Extension. 

As far as I understand it, the rune points are expended when a rune spell is cast -  where do you find the cannot-recover rule?

 

[Arcadiagt5]

42 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As far as I understand it, the rune points are expended when a rune spell is cast -  where do you find the cannot-recover rule?

Rune Fixes 2 - available here.

Quote

Rune points stacked in Extension and the affected spell cannot be regained until the spell expires.

I haven’t checked Red Book of Magic to see if the updated Extension has that text in it, but I would be surprised if it wasn’t.

The thing is, if the Sanctify spell is still active during worship ceremonies (acknowledging that Extension is not required), I would still argue that the Sanctify rune point(s) are still in use and not fully expended until after the ceremonies are completed, and thus cannot be recovered by those ceremonies.

[Rob Darvall]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the flip side, a shrine might be uniquely specialized. Perhaps this is the only one in the world that knows the secret of Orlanth Frog-of-Thunder?

Aha! I now know where Balvor Foglegs's (PC in the current campaign.) journey is going.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

So, how do you create a Sanctified roadside location? With a Rune Spell.

Is the spell still running when you use the sanctified spot for worship? I'll have to check, but I think so.

2 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

The thing is, if the Sanctify spell is still active during worship ceremonies... and thus cannot be recovered by those ceremonies.

Sanctify has no duration. It sanctifies the area, and we don't know what conditions end the sanctification. So do you need to deliberately dismantle the sanctification in order to free up the Rune Point to be recovered? If you don't do that, is that Rune Point locked up theoretically for ever if you can't return to the sanctified space and it remains despoiled?

Personally, I think you can recover it.

From a game point of view, do you want two RP in the party to be permanently tied up and unrecoverable when they're on the road? If you're fine with that, then it can't be recovered.

Edited August 9, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

Also, you forgot Rune Lords can also lead worship services (although, personally, I see them more as doing so as the big special guest in a service mostly run - MCed, if you will - by the priest).

Only a few cults have both rune lords and rune priests - Yelm, Yelmalio, Orlanth, Seven Mothers, Kyger Litor, Aldrya. Waha has shamans alongside his lords. There are a few cults with lords or ladies only - Humakt, Babeester Gor, Storm Bull, Odayla, Foundchild. The rest has priests or priestesses but no lords or ladies, at least in the rules book version. (Does the Pavis cult have its rune lord position back by 1625, or is the axe still up for grabs?) In case of Orlanth, lords and priests serve quite different aspects.

 

An initiate can be the high priest of a wyter. I guess that's the mechanic by which a fledgeling, rediscovered cult starts building up for its first priesthood.

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

An initiate can be the high priest of a wyter. I guess that's the mechanic by which a fledgeling, rediscovered cult starts building up for its first priesthood.

I believe you can probably HeroQuest for initiation and priesthood status, if you don't have the key people in place. It's just much more of a bother.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Regarding sacrificing POW for more Rune Points, my reading of p313 ("The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple.") is that "temple" here is the generic term, so it includes shrines and sites, as per p284. This would NOT include a Sanctified area, IMHO, but who knows (and that's why some RPGs use italicized or bold gameplay terms, folks!).

For me, the description of the sanctify spell (RQG p338) that says: "Ceremonies are performable within a Sanctified area that normally can be performed only in a temple, such as replenishing Rune points." clearly states that the replenishing of RP is only an example and that all activities that can be done in a temple (including sacrificing POW for RP) can also be performed on a sanctified ground. This does not solve the necessity of a Priest, though.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Kloster

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

...the replenishing of RP is only an example and that all activities that can be done in a temple (including sacrificing POW for RP) can also be performed on a sanctified ground. This does not solve the necessity of a Priest, though.

The gaining of a Rune Point seems to be tied to learning new spells though. "For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell." So there could be an implication that if you can't learn new spells, you can't sacrifice POW either.

However, at a shrine, you can sacrifice a point of POW for a Rune Point, but there's only one spell that you can learn. The implication I just mentioned also would imply that if you already know that spell, you can't sacrifice POW either. It also says that you can still sacrifice POW even if there are no more spells to learn. So... I think the implication is mistaken.

I'm not sure if that says anything about Sanctify or not. I think it's a GM's call, and I'd allow it.

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The gaining of a Rune Point seems to be tied to learning new spells though.

Definitely not the case.  You are not bound on the Rune points by the # of special spells available to a deity.  The point of the text you quote is that when you sacrifice POW for Rune points, you have the ability to gain a new special Rune spell if available at that temple.

[Baron Wulfraed]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

For me, the description of the sanctify spell (RQG p338) that says: "Ceremonies are performable within a Sanctified area that normally can be performed only in a temple, such as replenishing Rune points." clearly states that the replenishing of RP is only an example and that all activities that can be done in a temple (including sacrificing POW for RP) can also be performed on a sanctified ground. This does not solve the necessity of a Priest, though.

Page 313, however, states:

Quote

The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple.

I somewhat doubt that one could manage that using just Sanctify -- though a 10m radius provides lots of room for food supplies <G> (a 66ft diameter would swallow my house). One would likely need an associate to ensure one stays on track

 

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

I don't seem to be able to delete an accidental quote...

[Kloster]

43 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

I somewhat doubt that one could manage that using just Sanctify -- though a 10m radius provides lots of room for food supplies <G> (a 66ft diameter would swallow my house). One would likely need an associate to ensure one stays on track

I don't read 'The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple. ' as 'you can not leave the temple for 1 week.' I read it as ' you can not have any other special activity, but eating, sleeping, drinking, ... and all other normal activities are performed as usual.'

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Page 313, however, states:

Quote

The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple.

I somewhat doubt that one could manage that using just Sanctify -- though a 10m radius provides lots of room for food supplies <G> (a 66ft diameter would swallow my house)

I don't think the entire week needs to be spent entirely within the temple, eating and sleeping there. However it does stretch the definition of "on the road", if you're spending a whole week doing it you probably want to be back in civilisation. This may reverse my previous "I'd allow it" statement.

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

I don't seem to be able to delete an accidental quote...

You can't on a mobile device.

Edited August 9, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Baron Wulfraed]

I somehow doubt that 64-bit Windows 10 Pro, on a quad-core/hyperthreaded  i7-3770, 12 GB of RAM, with 7TB of disk space (over 3 drives, not including the back-up drive which formats out at 5.5TB) constitutes a "mobile device" (oh, and the display is 21.5 x 12.5 inches).

 

44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think the entire week needs to be spent entirely within the temple, eating and sleeping there. However it does stretch the definition of "on the road", if you're spending a whole week doing it you probably want to be back in civilisation. This may reverse my previous "I'd allow it" statement.

Red Book page 7 regarding ritual practice, which /may/ be applicable to this case (mostly it is talking about increasing chance for success in casting or Worship)

Quote

Although the adventurer can eat and sleep during the ritual practices, they can do little else. If they take time away from their ritual practices to do something else  (adventure, get sick, give birth, etc.), deduct that time from the actual time spent in ritual.

 

[Joerg]

Part of the week long ritual (if not most of it) will be ritual purification. Once you reach that stage, you don't really want to leave the sacred precinct and risk losing that hard-won purity.

The food side will quite likely be covered at least in part by your sacrifices.

Using a Sanctify on an impromptu location will in all likelihood start with purification rites of the site, prolonging the rites.

[PhilHibbs]

I'm fairly sure that in the Chaosium house campaign, Jeff's being pretty lax about imposing the week-long meditation part of gaining RP. I think I'll just make it part of the worship ceremony. Maybe learning a spell at the same time takes a bit of preparation in the week leading up to the ceremony.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe learning a spell at the same time takes a bit of preparation in the week leading up to the ceremony.

I think that makes the most sense and is the approach I'd take.