Magic across editions: some questions about learning limits and casting rolls

[buzz]

Please forgive me if this is an old topic; I'm new to the forums.

In RQ2/3, the amount of Battle/Spirit Magic a PC could learn was limited by INT. In RQG, it's limited by CHA.

In RQ2/3, the amount of Rune Magic a PC could learn was unlimited — as much POW as they chose to sacrifice. In RGQ, it's again limited by CHA.

In RQ2, Battle Magic succeeds unless the player rolls 96-00 (if I'm reading that passage correctly), and Rune Magic always works — Resistance rolls then happen as-needed. RQ3 introduced the POWx5 roll for Spirit Magic, and Divine Magic is 100-ENC. RQG kept the POWx5 for Spirit Magic and added the Rune Affinity roll for Rune Magic.

I was curious as to the rationale for these changes. Personally, I feel like spells just working and then the player dealing with Magic/Rune Point costs and Resistance rolls in enough; I don't see what's added by having them roll just to cast the spell (particularly the "double jeopardy" when they have to roll to cast and then roll again for Resistance). I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions.

Any insight is welcome.

[David Scott]

Have you read the design notes?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/designing-the-new-runequest/

Some of this is covered there.

[Alex]

55 minutes ago, buzz said:

I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions.

Clearly it does, though I'm not sure that was the motivation.  Or not admittedly to be such, at least!  But not necessarily a bad thing, IMO.

Conceptually it makes sense, I think, as dealing with spirits isn't a matter of intellect, as is sorcery, but of presence.  Arguably this is a little loose -- does what impresses a follower or negotiator cut ice with the spell spirit?  But that's in the nature of characteristics for you...

[g33k]

11 hours ago, buzz said:

...

I was curious as to the rationale for these changes. Personally, I feel like spells just working and then the player dealing with Magic/Rune Point costs and Resistance rolls in enough; I don't see what's added by having them roll just to cast the spell (particularly the "double jeopardy" when they have to roll to cast and then roll again for Resistance).

For me, linking Rune-magic to Rune scores on the sheet is a great change.  It makes for a great element of the new RuneQuest!  The new Rune features make the game truly "Rune Quest" for the first time.  It makes for a difference across characters -- some spells need certain Runes, and different characters will be better or worse at it.  That kind of differentiation always looks like a win, to me.

 

 

11 hours ago, buzz said:

... I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions.

I think making CHA more valuable/useful is no bad thing, honestly.

And "spirit magic" never was about "INT" really -- smarter characters were no better at it, etc (as noted, that's Sorcery).  So again:  making them different seems like a win...

[Kloster]

16 hours ago, buzz said:

I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions.

Yes, but not a bad thing, as CHA was frequently the dump stat.

14 hours ago, Alex said:

Conceptually it makes sense, I think, as dealing with spirits isn't a matter of intellect, as is sorcery, but of presence.  Arguably this is a little loose -- does what impresses a follower or negotiator cut ice with the spell spirit?  But that's in the nature of characteristics for you...

Frankly, the fact we rationalize spirit magic capacity with memory (=INT) or capability to negotiate with spirits (=CHA) does not matter. Both work correctly.

4 hours ago, g33k said:

For me, linking Rune-magic to Rune scores on the sheet is a great change.  It makes for a great element of the new RuneQuest!  The new Rune features make the game truly "Rune Quest" for the first time.  It makes for a difference across characters -- some spells need certain Runes, and different characters will be better or worse at it.  That kind of differentiation always looks like a win, to me.

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

And "spirit magic" never was about "INT" really -- smarter characters were no better at it, etc (as noted, that's Sorcery).  So again:  making them different seems like a win...

Yes, same for me.

In fact, what bothers me is not the difference between different releases on the max number of spells or the chance to cast the spell, but the change in the  Magic category modifier. Replacing INT by CHA works perfectly well for spirit magic (with the new rationale of negotiating with spirits) and does not change much for divine magic (the modifier does not count for casting spells, and the skills are a negotiation with the god or the cult, so OK), but feels wrong with sorcery. The free INT mechanism is OK, but using CHA to cast a sorcery spell has a bad feeling for me. I can think of 2 hacks on this: Either adding INT to the magic category modifier, counting as CHA, or adding a specific sorcery category modifier that would replace CHA by INT. My preference goes to the latter.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, but not a bad thing, as CHA was frequently the dump stat.

Frankly, the fact we rationalize spirit magic capacity with memory (=INT) or capability to negotiate with spirits (=CHA) does not matter. Both work correctly.

 

Yes, same for me.

In fact, what bothers me is not the difference between different releases on the max number of spells or the chance to cast the spell, but the change in the  Magic category modifier. Replacing INT by CHA works perfectly well for spirit magic (with the new rationale of negotiating with spirits) and does not change much for divine magic (the modifier does not count for casting spells, and the skills are a negotiation with the god or the cult, so OK), but feels wrong with sorcery. The free INT mechanism is OK, but using CHA to cast a sorcery spell has a bad feeling for me. I can think of 2 hacks on this: Either adding INT to the magic category modifier, counting as CHA, or adding a specific sorcery category modifier that would replace CHA by INT. My preference goes to the latter.

I fully agree

I think (just now, reading your answer) that we may explain the CHA for sorcery as "you must have no doubt facing the full energy, if anything troubles you, your cast may fail." and CHA is a question of doubt, am I enough confident to... order someone, seduce someone, manipulate somerune. but sure if we had APP and not CHA I would not seen any good reason 😛

 

 

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

Frankly, the fact we rationalize spirit magic capacity with memory (=INT) or capability to negotiate with spirits (=CHA) does not matter. Both work correctly.

Let's no start too far down the road of what "doesn't matter", or bang goes the entire hobby!  As I say, CHA seems the better choice, either for "balance" or for "story", so all in the plus column, however minor in magnitude compared to [actually important thing to taste].

 

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

Either adding INT to the magic category modifier, counting as CHA, or adding a specific sorcery category modifier that would replace CHA by INT. My preference goes to the latter.

I concur on both the above conclusions.

I'd offer only the small caveat that for me it seems that to me that we're very much at the stage where all plans between wizards are provisional.  We've had a preliminary sketch of LM sorcery, and we assume sorcery is still a significant thing for the Lunars.  But until such time as we get a deep dive into Mostali and Malkioni sorcerors, it all seems rather like a provisional ball we're smacking down the fairway.

[SDLeary]

21 hours ago, buzz said:

I also find the change from INT to CHA for Spirit Magic limits weird — it weights CHA more heavily than earlier editions

When dealing with spirits, how they perceive you and feel about you matters. As a result, your charm matters a lot; so in RQ terms, your CHA matters a lot! 🙂

SDLeary

[Baron Wulfraed]

21 hours ago, buzz said:

In RQ2/3, the amount of Rune Magic a PC could learn was unlimited — as much POW as they chose to sacrifice. In RGQ, it's again limited by CHA.

In RQ2, unless one was at Rune Level, Rune spells were all single-use spells. If one wanted to carry two uses of spell-X, they had to sacrifice the POW for each use.

RQ:RiG makes most of the spells reusable, usage tied to available rune points. So if one has enough rune points, one can cast spell-X twice, but only needs to "know" the spell once.

[Kloster]

44 minutes ago, Alex said:

Let's no start too far down the road of what "doesn't matter", or bang goes the entire hobby!  As I say, CHA seems the better choice, either for "balance" or for "story", so all in the plus column, however minor in magnitude compared to [actually important thing to taste].

Yes. This is why I wrote 'Replacing INT by CHA works perfectly well for spirit magic (with the new rationale of negotiating with spirits)' and 'Yes, but not a bad thing, as CHA was frequently the dump stat. '.

46 minutes ago, Alex said:

I'd offer only the small caveat that for me it seems that to me that we're very much at the stage where all plans between wizards are provisional.  We've had a preliminary sketch of LM sorcery, and we assume sorcery is still a significant thing for the Lunars.  But until such time as we get a deep dive into Mostali and Malkioni sorcerors, it all seems rather like a provisional ball we're smacking down the fairway.

Don't forget the Aeolian, the trolls and all the stygian churches, but yes, agreed.

16 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

RQ:RiG makes most of the spells reusable, usage tied to available rune points. So if one has enough rune points, one can cast spell-X twice, but only needs to "know" the spell once.

Yes, but your Rune Points are limited by your CHA. You can know an unlimited number of spells (as previously), but are limited in casting capacity (although less than previously in the short term, but more in the long term).

[Alex]

23 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Don't forget the Aeolian, the trolls and all the stygian churches, but yes, agreed.

That's true, but we don't have much on those yet either -- I assume we'll get lots of Esvulari detail in the Heortland book, which is somewhere on the pile/in the pipe, but not yet on any class of boat from China AFAIK.  And any or all of those might still be "off-brand" sorcery, cross-contaminated by too much theistic or animist thinking.  Rather than the pure and unsullied variety, which might on the one hand, introduce a different SorCatMod, or on the other give us a rationale for why the RAW are actually perfectly fine and Logical.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

I assume we'll get lots of Esvulari detail in the Heortland book, which is somewhere on the pile/in the pipe, but not yet on any class of boat from China AFAIK.

The Esvulari/Aeolians are not a majority population, so I'd expect some vs. "lots".  And it's certainly a hybrid culture that has blended to a larger extent with the Heortlings.

[Alex]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Esvulari/Aeolians are not a majority population, so I'd expect some vs. "lots".  And it's certainly a hybrid culture that has blended to a larger extent with the Heortlings.

Sure, but it's one of the major differentials from Generic Theyalan Homeland(TM).  So as we'll (I assume!) already have at least the Sartar Box and the Gods set by that point, unless it's going to be pure gazetteer (and essays on how they don't much like those uppity Esrolians, etc), I'd expect a large chunk of the cultural background to be on these guys.  Unless-unless that's being kicked for touch somewhat further if it also needs to wait for the IG book, who knows.

[buzz]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, but your Rune Points are limited by your CHA. You can know an unlimited number of spells (as previously), but are limited in casting capacity (although less than previously in the short term, but more in the long term).

P. 313-4: "An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell." 

Doesn't that mean there is functionally a limit to the number of Rune spells they can know? They can't get more than CHA in Rune Points, and hey gains access to spells the same time they gain Rune Points, right?

[buzz]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

For me, linking Rune-magic to Rune scores on the sheet is a great change.  It makes for a great element of the new RuneQuest!  The new Rune features make the game truly "Rune Quest" for the first time.  It makes for a difference across characters -- some spells need certain Runes, and different characters will be better or worse at it.  That kind of differentiation always looks like a win, to me.

I think the concept is interesting, but the implementation has felt spotty to me. But we're still early in our RQG campaign, so I'll see how it goes.

[Alex]

31 minutes ago, buzz said:

P. 313-4: "An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell." 

Doesn't that mean there is functionally a limit to the number of Rune spells they can know? They can't get more than CHA in Rune Points, and hey gains access to spells the same time they gain Rune Points, right?

This isn't expressly covered in the rules (or the Q&A AFAICS), but my reading is that the intent is that you're always allowed to sack POW to you god ("never known to refuse!"), whether or not you get both of of the possible benefits of doing so.  So if you're already at your CHA it doesn't affect your rune-point pool, but you get the new magic, just as that's explicitly covered the other way around.  The latter being the more usual case, that Rune Priests will regularly run into - unless their cults have a huge range of magic, or they're notably uncharismatic!

There's a slight possible niggle here if your RPs reach your CHA, then you sacrifice again for another distinct spell (not increasing your RPs) but your CHA later increases.  Personally I think in this case I'd just track the two separately.

[Kloster]

16 hours ago, Alex said:

That's true, but we don't have much on those yet either -- I assume we'll get lots of Esvulari detail in the Heortland book, which is somewhere on the pile/in the pipe, but not yet on any class of boat from China AFAIK.  And any or all of those might still be "off-brand" sorcery, cross-contaminated by too much theistic or animist thinking.  Rather than the pure and unsullied variety, which might on the one hand, introduce a different SorCatMod, or on the other give us a rationale for why the RAW are actually perfectly fine and Logical.

Agreed on most. I spoke specifically of the Aeolians just because the rules to create an Aeolian sorcerer are in the core rulebook.

9 hours ago, buzz said:

P. 313-4: "An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell." 

Doesn't that mean there is functionally a limit to the number of Rune spells they can know? They can't get more than CHA in Rune Points, and hey gains access to spells the same time they gain Rune Points, right?

IIRC, when your RP reach your CHA, you can still sacrifice POW to learn spell, but your RP total does not increase anymore. I can't find the thread but I'm sure it was one of Scotty's clarification.

[Joerg]

20 hours ago, buzz said:

Doesn't that mean there is functionally a limit to the number of Rune spells they can know? They can't get more than CHA in Rune Points, and hey gains access to spells the same time they gain Rune Points, right?

There are ways to lose rune points, which then can be re-sacrificed for, e.g. through one-use spells or through Divine Intervention. As a result, there is no theoretical upper limit for the number of a deity's special rune spells, subcult and allied rune spells a character knows.

A character who has her full CHA in rune points might still sacrifice a point of POW to acquire a new rune spell from that cult. Or she might open a second account with an allied cult or two and learn the allied spells in that account.

[buzz]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Or she might open a second account with an allied cult or two and learn the allied spells in that account.

Yeah, my reading was this is the only way to exceed that CHA limit. Sacrificing more POW for spells but not Rune Points s an interesting take, though.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, buzz said:

I think the concept is interesting, but the implementation has felt spotty to me. But we're still early in our RQG campaign, so I'll see how it goes.

Don't forget -- as you balance the "weakness" of the new "roll to cast, but also possibly face a Resistance roll"  approach -- to include the significant power-bump from reusable Rune Magic, Rune Points fueling your *choice* of Rune Spells (including the entire Common Spells list), etc.

This is a seriously more-potent model.

[Alex]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are ways to lose rune points, which then can be re-sacrificed for, e.g. through one-use spells or through Divine Intervention.

Indeed.  Though DI is a rather drastic way to do it, and IIRC not every cult actually has access to one-users.  But I think this is a a compelling gedankenexperiment as to why this doesn't make sense as a limit to be enforced, even if the PC isn't actually "burning" those RPs.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or she might open a second account with an allied cult or two and learn the allied spells in that account.

Maybe this explains hero cults and certain types of subcult.  "It's a separate deity for tax purposes!"

 

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

IIRC, when your RP reach your CHA, you can still sacrifice POW to learn spell, but your RP total does not increase anymore. I can't find the thread but I'm sure it was one of Scotty's clarification.

I think that's the only logical (if I dare say so in a thread along with Commander Mirror Spock!) interpretation, but I can't find such a clarification or ruling either (not a guaranteed, but I did try a couple of different search methods, and it's not in the relevant WoD Q&A.

[Bren]

On 11/9/2021 at 4:03 AM, Kloster said:

IIRC, when your RP reach your CHA, you can still sacrifice POW to learn spell, but your RP total does not increase anymore. I can't find the thread but I'm sure it was one of Scotty's clarification.

My recollection was the opposite of yours. I thought that the clarification was that the number of rune spells in a single cult that one could learn was limited by CHA, but the number of rune points one could have in a cult had no limit. I'll see if I can find the post.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

My recollection was the opposite of yours. I thought that the clarification was that the number of rune spells in a single cult that one could learn was limited by CHA, but the number of rune points one could have in a cult had no limit. I'll see if I can find the post.

p313 (rqg 2nd printing)

The maximum number of Rune points an adventurer can have with a single cult is equal to their CHA

[Bren]

I like my interpretation* better.

From a practical standpoint, for PCs it will be probably be some time before the issue arises, but from system design and world building standpoints I don't see a good reason to penalize characters who are initiates (or higher) of only one religion while highly rewarding those who join multiple cults. Joining multiple cults already provides a reward by increasing the number of special Rune Spells that a character can select. Doubling the total Rune Points that can be accumulated seems over-the-top.

One world building consequence of restricting Rune Points to CHA per cult is that the most magically powerful theists are not necessarily priests and rune lord. Instead the most powerful will be those who join multiple cults so that they gain multiple Rune Point pools. That's a change from earlier versions of Runequest and its not a change for which I've seen a good explanation or rationale.

This runs counter to some of the oldest published Gloranthan examples of powerful characters. While Argrath seems like he is a good example of gaining power by joining multiple cults, Harrek seems to have adopted the opposite strategy. And Harrek is the Superhero counter in the White Bear, Red Moon / Dragonpass board game while Argrath is "only" a Hero.

 

* My interpretation (or my house rule if you prefer) is to restrict the number of cult Rune Spells one can learn based on CHA rather than restrict the number of Rune Points by cult.

Also, I haven't found the post that I remembered reading. Rereading the RQG rules, it seems clear that my view is not that of the designers which implies I must be misremembering some post I read.

[buzz]

26 minutes ago, Bren said:

Instead the most powerful will be those who join multiple cults so that they gain multiple Rune Point pools.

Is this maybe an issue of something being possible on paper but improbable in actual play? Not only in terms of the in-game requirements for joining multiple cults (and maintaining those relationships), but also the amount of session time needed to reach such a state? In which case that might balance it out, i.e., it's hard to pull off.

Granted, that this was a design oversight would not surprise me, either.