Rune Magic Buff and Attack in Same Turn

[Ryan Kent]

How many folks allow characters to cast Rune Magic Buff's such as True Sword and then attack the same round?  I do.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Why wouldn't you allow this?  Rune magic, usually, happens at SR 0.  Effectively, it takes no time at all to cast.

[Bill the barbarian]

SR 1 actually.

 

[Ryan Kent]

 

This means that an adventurer who starts a round physically engaged in melee may either:  

.Attack and defend normally; or  .

1. Defend normally and cast spells.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Ryan Kent

[Ryan Kent]

51 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why wouldn't you allow this?  Rune magic, usually, happens at SR 0.  Effectively, it takes no time at all to cast.

change of RAW.
 

This means that an adventurer who starts a round physically engaged in melee may either:  

1..Attack and defend normally; or  .

2.Defend normally and cast spells.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

How many folks allow characters to cast Rune Magic Buff's such as True Sword and then attack the same round?  I do.

The restriction is that you can't attack with a spell and weapon, in the same round same round, page 195:

Quote

an adventurer cannot, while engaged in combat, attack both physically and magically.

So you can cast a non-attack spell and attack in the same round. Defend normally and cast (offensive) spells.

So casting True Sword at SR1, then attacking with the sword is normal.

(I can clarify over at the Q&A if needed)

[HreshtIronBorne]

We do this all the time in our campaigns. The specific example of Truesword we use all the time. Quite often we will use stuff like Bear's Strength and go for a Grapple the same round, or even just Shield 4 and dive into the melee. Another favorite tactic is Teleporting behind an enemy caster and then cutting them in half that same round. 

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

How many folks allow characters to cast Rune Magic Buff's such as True Sword and then attack the same round?  I do.

There is no reason not to do it. Buffs are not attack spells, that are the only one limited when engaged. And if you are not engaged at the beginning of the round, anything goes: You can cast any spell, become engaged (by your move or someone else's) and then attack.

[Alex]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why wouldn't you allow this?  Rune magic, usually, happens at SR 0.  Effectively, it takes no time at all to cast.

15 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

SR 1 actually.

"Prepared" magic is noted as being a SR 0 thing, though that's on the table of SR modifiers (p193), while RM specifically "always" takes effect at SR 1 (p314). The distinction is fairly moot as there is no SR 0 "impulse", so only comes up if you change your statement of intent and your GM allows this (oops, Harmast's HPs are negative what?, time for a Heal Body!), or if you're having to move, or prep something else first #becausereasons.  So arguably there's a question of whether this happens at (current/as determined by movement, etc) SR +0, or +1.

 

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

The restriction is that you can't attack with a spell and weapon, in the same round same round, page 195:

Right, but Ryan accurately quotes from the very next paragraph which restates this less than entirely accurately/clearly:-

15 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

This means that an adventurer who starts a round physically engaged in melee may either:  

1..Attack and defend normally; or  .

2.Defend normally and cast spells.

To avoid any appearance of contradiction or confusion here, #2 should really read:-

... and cast attack spells.

Or some other such tweak.  So In personally think this indeed Q&A/errata/reprinting textual refinements fodder, your threshold on that may vary.

I assume that this reasoning applies to not just "buffs", but to any magic that doesn't involve a resisting target.

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, Alex said:

"Prepared" magic is noted as being a SR 0 thing, though that's on the table of SR modifiers (p193), while RM specifically "always" takes effect at SR 1 (p314). The distinction is fairly moot as there is no SR 0 "impulse", so only comes up if you change your statement of intent and your GM allows this (oops, Harmast's HPs are negative what?, time for a Heal Body!), or if you're having to move, or prep something else first #becausereasons.  So arguably there's a question of whether this happens at (current/as determined by movement, etc) SR +0, or +1.

 

No, that means that there is a zero SR mod... 

[Lordabdul]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

The restriction is that you can't attack with a spell and weapon, in the same round same round, page 195 [...]

So you can cast a non-attack spell and attack in the same round. Defend normally and cast (offensive) spells.

Ouch. That wasn't clear. Like others in this thread, I went by the (clearer and simpler to me) rule under the "This means that an adventurer..." example, which states that you either attack and defend, or cast spells and defend.

Are "offensive spells" any spell that triggers a POW vs POW? That would mean that spells like Create Fissure (right under your enemies) is OK to cast while attacking the same round.

[Alex]

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

No, that means that there is a zero SR mod... 

Does it?  Why?  That's the section I just cited myself, and it doesn't cover that case.  (And in fact if you read it excessively literally, would preclude any 'SR-modified' use at all.)  But I'd play it that way, at any rate.

 

15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Ouch. That wasn't clear. Like others in this thread, I went by the (clearer and simpler to me) rule under the "This means that an adventurer..." example, which states that you either attack and defend, or cast spells and defend.

That's the hazard with "clarifying examples", that in order to be clearer and simpler, they end up misstating the original rule they're supposed to be elucidating!  I think the rule here (above in bold) is itself pretty clear, albeit less punchy than it could be as it's trying to deal with two cases (unengaged and engaged) in the one breath.

 

15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Are "offensive spells" any spell that triggers a POW vs POW? That would mean that spells like Create Fissure (right under your enemies) is OK to cast while attacking the same round.

Good example!  I couldn't think of any non-opposed "attack" spells off the top.  I'm in two minds about this.  Arguably this is even worse than the "attack spell and melee attack" situation where you're engaged with the target, in a walking-and-chewing-gum/no-look-pass sort of way.  You'd be trying to target one thing with your spell, and another with your melee attack.  Somewhat more feasible-seeming is...

• Self-targeted spells only (including buffing weapons held in hand);
• Or, less restrictively, unresisted Touch spells only.

The latter providing for the ever-popular "heal an ally before they croak at the end of the round" option, and leaving players to argue just how practicable that is in any given tactical situation...

Edited November 9, 2021 by Alex

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

Does it?  Why?  That's the section I just cited myself, and it doesn't cover that case.  (And in fact if you read it excessively literally, would preclude any 'SR-modified' use at all.)  But I'd play it that way, at ant rate.

 

Let’s see... it is in a table called Strike Rank Mods not Strike Ranks... that says it all to me.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

That would mean that spells like Create Fissure (right under your enemies) is OK to cast while attacking the same round.

With my reading, yes. 'Create Fissure' is not an attack spell. The way I understand the rule is that you can only attack once, whether physically or magically.

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Alex said:

"Prepared" magic is noted as being a SR 0 thing, though that's on the table of SR modifiers (p193), while RM specifically "always" takes effect at SR 1 (p314). The distinction is fairly moot as there is no SR 0 "impulse", so only comes up if you change your statement of intent and your GM allows this (oops, Harmast's HPs are negative what?, time for a Heal Body!), or if you're having to move, or prep something else first #becausereasons.  So arguably there's a question of whether this happens at (current/as determined by movement, etc) SR +0, or +1.

Player: SoI - I see the leader in the distance and cast Lightning on them.

GM: Okay so you are prepared thats so your lightning goes off on SR1 + 0SRs as you were prepared.

or 

GM: They burst out of the woods right in front of you, throwing their spears.

Player: SoI - I see the leader and cast Lightning on them.

GM: Okay so you are unprepared thats so your lightning goes off on SR6, that's SR1 + 5SRs as you were unprepared.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

With my reading, yes. 'Create Fissure' is not an attack spell. The way I understand the rule is that you can only attack once, whether physically or magically.

Yes that’s how I see it too. Unless you’re splitting attacks, you have one attack per melee round. The restriction on combining magical attacks with melee attacks is a way of maintaining that offensive balance - one attack per melee round -  that’s  my interpretation. 

[Kloster]

43 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes that’s how I see it too. Unless you’re splitting attacks, you have one attack per melee round. The restriction on combining magical attacks with melee attacks is a way of maintaining that offensive balance - one attack per melee round -  that’s  my interpretation. 

In fact, I will correct my own post: You can attack several times per MR, but only with a missile (bow or sling), and only once with a melee or magical attack.