Passions, doing the math

[Lordabdul]

On the topic of low percentage Passions, there is indeed somewhat of a blurry line between "I did a mission for this Issaries merchant and now he's one of my contacts in Jonstown" and "I've got a 60% Loyalty Passion with that Issaries merchant".  I explored various avenues for starting Passions at, say, 20% and raising them slowly over time, and figuring what good (mechanically speaking) these are with such low scores (although I'll remind people that you probably roll on skills that are below 60% on a regular basis... but anyway).

I eventually abandoned the idea, figuring that you take a Passion when you make a conscious decision about your character -- taking a vow, making a commitment with a Temple, pleading allegiance to a King, swearing yourself into service of a patron, etc. It doesn't even have to be something that happens in-game, it could just be a meta thing to represent how the player wants the story to progress. But I figured playing it as RAW seems simpler anyway.

By the way, we raised that question in the aforementioned God Learners episode, so that's a good reason to listen to it 🙂 

Edited November 18, 2021 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I disagree.  Sure, you won't use a passion of less than 50% to Augment anything.  But as an "ask for a favor" mechanism, it's just fine.

Sure, you could do that, but that's very much house-ruling in a new mechanic. Sounds like a good one though.

I'm going on the premise that the rules say that new passions start at 60%, which to me says "these things are only intended for augments, therefore they are pointless at 50 or less".

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

On the topic of low percentage Passions, there is indeed somewhat of a blurry line between "I did a mission for this Issaries merchant and now he's one of my contacts in Jonstown" and "I've got a 60% Loyalty Passion with that Issaries merchant".  I explored various avenues for starting Passions at, say, 20% and raising them slowly over time, and figuring what good (mechanically speaking) these are with such low scores (although I'll remind people that you probably roll on skills that are below 60% on a regular basis... but anyway).

The problem with this is that Passions are most typically used to augment, and at just a little below 50%, you lose more than you gain from this (as opposed to skills, where 20% just means 20% chance of success and you might as well try.) A Passion at 30% might be good as a roleplaying guide, but is unlikely to come into play ruleswise, at least as long as the player is looking to actually succeed.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The problem with this is that Passions are most typically used to augment

Passions like Loyalty can also often be used to appeal to someone. And that's exactly what you would do with a low Passion: you don't have a strong enough connection to that patron or boyfriend or whatever to *really* motivate you so you don't augment with it, but you definitely ask them  favours. The low score would therefore work as intended, more or less. Anyway, like I said, I explored all this already, including house rules to mitigate the chances of success in some situations. I can share more in a PM if you're interested.

Edited November 19, 2021 by lordabdul

[Baron Wulfraed]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, you could do that, but that's very much house-ruling in a new mechanic. Sounds like a good one though.

I'm going on the premise that the rules say that new passions start at 60%, which to me says "these things are only intended for augments, therefore they are pointless at 50 or less".

If a passion drops to 50%, I'd say it would be removed from the character sheet.

If a passion drops below 50%, I'd consider it an anti-passion... Change, say, "Love" to "Hate" and give it the complement value (Love 46% => Hate 54%)

 

[Ian Absentia]

1 minute ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops to 50%, I'd say it would be removed from the character sheet.

Yea, verily.

2 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops below 50%, I'd consider it an anti-passion... Change, say, "Love" to "Hate" and give it the complement value (Love 46% => Hate 54%)

How about an Apathy?  The player has to begin rolling to see if their character can do anything.  But seriously, see above -- just strike it from the sheet, and the character remembers that they used to care deeply about something.

!i!

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops to 50%, I'd say it would be removed from the character sheet.

That's a valid way to do it.

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops below 50%, I'd consider it an anti-passion... Change, say, "Love" to "Hate" and give it the complement value (Love 46% => Hate 54%)

That is NOT a valid way to do it. IMHO the complement of a Passion is not the opposite of that Passion. The complement of a Passion is indifference, or another unrelated Passion stepping in. If you have Love at 80%, it doesn't mean you actually Hate that person 20% of the time. Leika Blackspear doesn't have bodyguards with Loyalty 80% just so that they can stab her in the back 20% of the time. It respectively means that 20% of the time, Love or Loyalty just don't factor much in how a character behaves -- they behave a certain way for other reasons than Love or Loyalty.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:59 PM, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops below 50%, I'd consider it an anti-passion... Change, say, "Love" to "Hate" and give it the complement value (Love 46% => Hate 54%)

personaly, I would say that if  a passion drops below 50%, it is just a feeling

 

I love (> 50) I like (<50) when I like, there is no reason to improve / motivate or submerge(if I fail the roll)

the feeling is here but is "just a feeling"

that s why I consider the best way is to remove the passion, that's a good (or not) memory but nothing more.

 

of course if betrayed by someone who love / be loyal / etc..., you may remove the passion and create another one called "hate", but that is not just because your passion-story is ending

Edited November 24, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild
typo

[StephenMcG]

13 hours ago, lordabdul said:

 If you have Love at 80%, it doesn't mean you actually Hate that person 20% of the time. Leika Blackspear doesn't have bodyguards with Loyalty 80% just so that they can stab her in the back 20% of the time. It respectively means that 20% of the time, Love or Loyalty just don't factor much in how a character behaves -- they behave a certain way for other reasons than Love or Loyalty.

Going to listen to the podcast on my bike ride this morning.

Not run RQG much so far but I have disliked the passions etc, not as a concept but on how they work at the table.  They add so much rolling for sometimes odd outcomes.

I am inclined to change the mechanic so that you invoke a passion, get a bonus based on the percentage and get a tick in EITHER the skill or the passion, if the passion inspired skill is successful. 

Narrative aims are covered off here and dice rolls are avoided.  The bodyguard always loves leika but some are more inspired by that than others....

[Joerg]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:59 PM, Baron Wulfraed said:

If a passion drops to 50%, I'd say it would be removed from the character sheet.

If a passion drops below 50%, I'd consider it an anti-passion... Change, say, "Love" to "Hate" and give it the complement value (Love 46% => Hate 54%)

At those values, I wouldn't bother to introduce something as strong as hate. "Annoyed by" or "loathe" would be my in-betweens.

I would rather change the verb in the passion when at higher percentages, as the target still invokes feelings, but those can be mixed. Hate would only result from (perceived) betrayal, more likely there would be "annoyed by" or other such secondary flavors which may creep in for the same object of a passion.

Does this need another passion to track?

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

At those values, I wouldn't bother to introduce something as strong as hate. "Annoyed by" or "loathe" would be my in-betweens.

The Yelm of GRoY sounds like he has "Peeved by Chaos, 15%" or so.  But then he's peeved about a lot of things, so I guess that diffuses his efforts!

[Ian Absentia]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

At those values, I wouldn't bother to introduce something as strong as hate. "Annoyed by" or "loathe" would be my in-betweens.

Which, in my opinion, is an element of roleplaying, and doesn't merit a mechanic.  Of course, people have made similar arguments against characteristic stats, and how they're largely just reference values after one has calculated derived attributes like HPs and damage bonuses.  But if we do away with all of that, what are we left to play?

(cough-QuestWorlds-cough)

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does this need another passion to track?

That's a hard "no".

!i!

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ian Absentia
And I mean "QuestWorlds" in the best possible way.

[Ludo Bagman]

Just adding my 2 clacks to the discussion:

There are Rune spells like Arouse Passion and Inspire Love that affect passions and may temporarily create new passions. The target may gain an experience check in that passion that will most likely succeed at the end of the season, so they will start the new passion with a few percentile points (which is probably just a very light feeling).

So it seems that passions with very low ratings are intended in the rules. Or the new passion may start with a higher rating (say 20% instead of 1D6%).

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ludo Bagman

[Alex]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:36 AM, StephenMcG said:

Not run RQG much so far but I have disliked the passions etc, not as a concept but on how they work at the table.  They add so much rolling for sometimes odd outcomes.

This is something of a recurrent thing in a whole lots of games, for a whole lot things.  Typically we get two-to-three different degrees of randomness ("none", "one-off roll", "chained rolls"), and often the rules simply assume a particular one of those for a particular subsystem and situation.  So if you find yourself in a "this seems like it could go wrong in theory, but is much less likely to than the baseline case", it can be a bit awks.  Likely to continue to be an issue, unless and until someone adds a lots more maths to such things, and in a way that doesn't make people pitch a fit.

On 11/19/2021 at 7:08 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

that s why I consider the best way is to remove the pasison, that's a good (or not) memory but nothing more.

I disagree.  Not all passions are the stuff of epic greatness.  Yes, "feeling" is the more generically accurate description, but having two or four categories and as many sets of "verbs" is just extra [body part]ache to very little purpose, IMO.

But just because they're -- quite literally! -- un-Inspiring doesn't mean they're redundant.  Non-Inspiration uses may be much rarer, but they do exist.  Plus of course, a Passion might be low but growing, or just fluctuating and great deal.

If a Passion seems to be in a permanent flat spin, or if it's agree it's now narratively redundant, of course it should be removed.  Or if it's a more marginal-seeming case, where the spiral isn't necessarily so clearly inevitably downwards, perhaps giving the player the option to reduce it by 10% (or 5%, or 20%...) per season to reflect a decision on their part to be studiedly indifferent during their downtime.  Cue kin pleading with the hard-hearted PC to mend their ways!  (Maybe.)

On 11/18/2021 at 10:22 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, you could do that, but that's very much house-ruling in a new mechanic. Sounds like a good one though.

I'd say it's more of a house-extrapolation of an existing rule.  See p407:-

Quote

If someone other than the captive is paying the ransom, the captive must succeed with a Loyalty or Love roll with the relevant community.

  Definitely a special case on exactly these lines.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

I disagree.  Not all passions are the stuff of epic greatness.  Yes, "feeling" is the more generically accurate description, but having two or four categories and as many sets of "verbs" is just extra [body part]ache to very little purpose, IMO.

Of course it is a question of taste, time, and interest.

My position is maybe based on my business and how I challenge my consumers (I modelize process) and every thing depends on the situation. the questions are "Why ?" and "For what ?".

In pure modelization, I agree with you, going probably further.

Spoiler

1) a passion should be between 0 and a max (100 in rqg)

I say 0 and not -100 because, for me the opposite of love is not hate, it may be hate, it may be fear, it may be disgust, etc... and sometimes you fear AND you love, etc...

2) a passion should at least propose two stats :

the intensity how strong is your passion

the "management"  (I have no word for that): how you can use your passion efficiently.

For exemple my love passion (irl) allows me to create poetry (clearly not an artist, but sometimes a few success) but the same passion submerges me when I am facing the "target". That is not a fumble, when it occurs 80% of the time, that is another stat.

 

somewhere that could imply 3 stats: how strong is my passion, how efficient it is when i am alone, how efficient it is when I am facing it. but it could be even more (what when it is to gain the target attention, when it is to protect the target's life, etc...)

so  a lot of thing to manage...too much, too complex, too boring and always objectionable

 

there is no one answer, there is an (several ?) answer by situation.

If the gm is an algorithm and all the rolls are made by a computer, yes why not keep all the stats. When I tried decades ago to develop such kind of game, that was the direction I wanted to follow for one reason,  you can roll (or determinate) what you want, it is few micro seconds for the gamer

 

but when we are on paper, when each roll or each stat change is a human action, so time consuming, my taste is to say for what is this action, and in our case, for what is this passion score ?

If background is important for you (and it is for me), you probably write something about this passion, it may a paragraph, a simple note, a full text, what you want, but it is.

but the score ? passion 28% you can do nothing during the play.

during a play session, you may raise or reduce it by 0-6 and still have a passion you cannot use.

(I exclude the standard use case : you get a new passion at 60 or add +10 to your existing passion, because here it is the rules and it is impacting)

during the "season" session, you will raise or reduce by  5, 10 or 20 (and I agree with you, time should affect passion) and still have a passion you cannot use.

 

so how much time, 2 minutes, 20 minutes for all these "feelings", per person ? for me too much for too few impact in the play.

In this case I prefer that a player tells the gm "hey you remember john doe ? we had a flirt during the last scenario The three next seasons, my character met him again, I think I can start a new passion. (love 60%)"

or

"you know, that's now 2 years I am far from XXX, and my character think about what is important for him, after his last heroquest, I m not sure he has still a loyalty to XXX (60%). Of course he likes them, but fight for their "honor" ? naaa there are other priorities. I propose to remove it"

 

no need, for me, to put love john doe love 12% because he just kissed our character after the fest, and to discuss each season time if you add or reduce the % for john doe or the XXX loyalty

of course some tables may have different taste, priority, some would be happy to spend time on a lot of statistics, I just say there are other ways to manage the same event (a flirt, a distance, etc...)

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Alex]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but the score ? passion 28% you can do nothing during the play.

I just pointed out why that's not the case, with direct quote from the rules, in the very post you're replying to.  (Though admittedly specific to Love and Loyalty, in that example.  Hate, Fear, etc may not.)

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so how much time, 2 minutes, 20 minutes for all these "feelings", per person ? for me too much for too few impact in the play.

I'm all in favour of people streamlining the game when the faff is too much for their tastes.  But then I, as with many of us old farts that haven't gone hardcore "OSR", am pretty sympathetic to a lot of the "indie" way of doing things.  But some people like every last little bit of detail, and would dislike stuff being handwaved or fiated too much.  ("I might need that later!"  *hoards every last game-mechanical scrap*)  The rules are there to make these assumptions explicit, so my main bias is making exceptions to them explicit, and as systematic as possible.