Passions, doing the math

[Pentallion]

I've noticed plenty of examples in the adventures released where if someone fails a passion roll, they lose 1D6 (or some appropriate amount based on the situation). However, to go up in a Passion requires a successful experience gain roll. This is mathematically problematical.

Say I have 60% Loves Banana Pie.

I'm on a diet.  I'm trying to avoid Pie. Over the course of ten gaming sessions, I roll ten times on my Loves Banana Pie. On average, I succeed 6 times and fail 4 times. Six times I ate Banana Pie. I get six experience rolls. I will go up in Loves Banana Pie 40% of those rolls or 2.4 times. At 3.5 average increase per 1D6, I on average go up 8.4% in Loves Banana Pie. But what about the four rolls I failed? Stuck to my diet. Went down 4D6 for an average of 14%. Net LOSS of the passion of 5.6%.

That means a starting passion at 60% is going to go down on average @0.56% each time you roll against that passion.

And it will start steamrolling downhill once it passes the 50% barrier.

Automatic passion loss for a failed passion roll is perhaps a bad idea? Perhaps have an Inverse Experience roll where they must roll higher than their passion for it to go down? If you're passionate about something, even if you stray now and then, you're unlikely to lose your passion for it.

I'll always Love Banana Pie.

[Ryan Kent]

Don’t go on a diet if you love banana pie.

[Ludo Bagman]

Use the official rules for inspiration and reduce the passion only on fumbled rolls (losing 1D10 %).

[Martin Dick]

But you only reduce your passion on a Fumble, a failure doesn't reduce the level of your passion, so with a passion of 60% it only happens that you lose 1D10% from your passion on a roll of 99-00

[Runeblogger]

I'd say passions can also augment or decrease due to narrative reasons. For example, if the Varmandi burned your family's stead to the ground, the GM can tell you to increase your Hate Varmandi 60% passion by f.ex. +20% or 10+2D10%.

[Alex]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:13 AM, Ryan Kent said:

Don’t go on a diet if you love banana pie.

This is exactly how you start a Hate [Diet] passion.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I'd say passions can also augment or decrease due to narrative reasons. For example, if the Varmandi burned your family's stead to the ground, the GM can tell you to increase your Hate Varmandi 60% passion by f.ex. +20% or 10+2D10%.

Not disagreeing in the effect desired.  But this really should be the player asking the GM, gee, can I increase my Hate Varmandi?

Having the GM burn down the stead and then forcibly assign an increase in a Passion removes a lot of player agency.

[Alex]

7 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not disagreeing in the effect desired.  But this really should be the player asking the GM, gee, can I increase my Hate Varmandi?

Having the GM burn down the stead and then forcibly assign an increase in a Passion removes a lot of player agency.

Removes a lot of stead too, mind you.

But yes, I'd treat this as the silent partner of the "Gaining a Passion" section, p236.  Either may "suggest", both should "agree".  And if we reason by analogy with the way Passions are treated in chargen, if it's as big and significant as a "gain a new Passion at 60% or greater" event, then +20% would be the analogous increment.

For very high Passion levels, or for less slam-dunk "gee, can I increase/maybe you should increase" things, a smaller increment or just a tick might be better.

[Darius West]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:07 PM, Pentallion said:

Over the course of ten gaming sessions, I roll ten times on my Loves Banana Pie. On average, I succeed 6 times and fail 4 times. Six times I ate Banana Pie. I get six experience rolls. I will go up in Loves Banana Pie 40% of those rolls or 2.4 times. At 3.5 average increase per 1D6, I on average go up 8.4% in Loves Banana Pie. But what about the four rolls I failed? Stuck to my diet. Went down 4D6 for an average of 14%. Net LOSS of the passion of 5.6%.

That isn't how the rules for passions work.  You don't lose any passion on a failed roll, only on a fumble (-1d10% removed from Passion).  The reduction in skill for a failed passion is a very temporary -10% on skills.  It helps to actually read the rules before criticizing them imo. They're pretty good rules for the most part.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not disagreeing in the effect desired.  But this really should be the player asking the GM, gee, can I increase my Hate Varmandi?

Having the GM burn down the stead and then forcibly assign an increase in a Passion removes a lot of player agency.

could be both side but also a choice between two options, not all options:

 

if you see something "too hard" you must get a passion.

if you see something "just hard", you may get a passion

 

you see the Varmandi plundering your clan, do you want to get (or raise) hate or fear varmandi or nothing?

you see the Varmandi killing your so powerful and loved father , choose what you want to get (or raise) between hate or fear varmandi

[Alex]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you see the Varmandi plundering your clan, do you want to get (or raise) hate or fear varmandi or nothing?

you see the Varmandi killing your so powerful and loved father , choose what you want to get (or raise) between hate or fear varmandi

That's definitely going beyond the RAW, and you get definitely get pushback from some players who're especially resistant to the "mind-controlling ma character!!" worry.  RQG doesn't have the same range of passions, traits, and such as other games with those concepts, so you don't have the option of "hrm, that's very Forgiving of you -- increase that instead, then!", or such like, unless it's something that happens to map onto a Runic personality trope.  Or a religious Passion, or one directed against the individuals involved...

 

13 hours ago, Alex said:

then +20% would be the analogous increment.

Actually just noticed that RQG p29 says +10%, and looking though the examples the general pattern is start at 60%::+10%, but start at 70%::+20%.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 1:07 AM, Pentallion said:

I've noticed plenty of examples in the adventures released where if someone fails a passion roll, they lose 1D6 (or some appropriate amount based on the situation). 

Not familiar with the cases you allude to, but perhaps these are supposed to be particular crunch "use it or lose it" sitches, as opposed to "standard" passions rolls, as when you attempt Inspiration with them?  Heaven forfend it might be scenario writers not familiar with the base rules... 🙂

[Pentallion]

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

That isn't how the rules for passions work.  You don't lose any passion on a failed roll, only on a fumble (-1d10% removed from Passion).  The reduction in skill for a failed passion is a very temporary -10% on skills.  It helps to actually read the rules before criticizing them imo. They're pretty good rules for the most part.

I specifically started my thread by saying "I've noticed plenty of examples in the adventures released where if someone fails a passion roll, they lose 1D6 (or some appropriate amount based on the situation). " I'm not trying to call out specific adventures so I'm not giving examples, plenty can be found. I'm only saying it's probably not a good precedent to set to have passions reduced on failed rolls based upon the mathematics I explained above.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

that's definitely going beyond the RAW,

that is exactly what the creation rules say, or I misundertand something 🙂

[Martin Dick]

6 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I specifically started my thread by saying "I've noticed plenty of examples in the adventures released where if someone fails a passion roll, they lose 1D6 (or some appropriate amount based on the situation). " I'm not trying to call out specific adventures so I'm not giving examples, plenty can be found. I'm only saying it's probably not a good precedent to set to have passions reduced on failed rolls based upon the mathematics I explained above.

I've just been through Pegasus Plateau, Smoking Ruins and GM Screen Adventure Book and can only find 2 occasions where a penalty is imposed on a passion, one is for having made a success on your Honor and then ignoring it and doing the dishonourable thing, pretty much as per the rules. The other is a penalty to an appropriate passion (Honor, Loyalty) for oathbreaking and there is no Passion roll involved at all. But maybe I've missed the examples you are talking about?

Are you talking about Jonstown Compendium publications? But I agree that reducing a passion because you failed, is probably not a good idea in general

[Alex]

16 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is exactly what the creation rules say, or I misundertand something 🙂

No, as I said, p236 expressly says "should agree" and "should agree", which doesn't seem consistent to me with a "you must have one thing or another" approach.  Are you referring here to Passions obtained in character creation?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Alex

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

No, as I said, p236 expressly says "should agree" and "should agree", which doesn't seem consistent to me with a "you must have one thing or another" approach.  Are you referring here to Passions obtained in character creation?

before everything, note that I m not saying anyone must follow what I say, and those who don't are bad people, that's my poor vision

I was talking about the character creation for the reference : a big event gives a passion. but m answer was also during the play.

I think the best way, for me, is :

-if the event is not too hard, GM or player may propose a passion gain, and at the end of the day, the player decides if there is a gain or not and what type (hate, fear, loyalty, lust... etc.. I m not restricted by the list proposed by the rulles, by the way)

-if the event is really hard, I consider the personality must be altered, because passions describe the personality. then as a player, I take a passion, as a GM I strongly encourage to do it. At the end of the day, the player choose. Of course a player may explain that does not impact the character because [a good reason] and then it is not an issue for me.

but if i see players using passion only for bonus and not following the story, "their story"... "our story" we are creating, I would be... disappointed

[Alex]

On 11/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

before everything, note that I m not saying anyone must follow what I say, and those who don't are bad people, that's my poor vision

Naturally, understood, same goes for my thought of the topic.  Should go without saying, but rarely hurts to say it!

On 11/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I was talking about the character creation for the reference : a big event gives a passion. but m answer was also during the play.

OK, noted.  As written the rules do seem to differ between the two cases;  I'm not sure if that's a very self-conscious design decision, or just an incidental.  It might be the case that in chargen, the player always implicitly has the "I don't want to play this character, this feature is a deal-breaker" option, whereas for "mandatory" raises in play, there's arguably more of a "pot committed" angle to the player's investment in the character.  Personally I think I'd be inclined to not treat either as strictly compulsory, but indeed I'd want an "ifnotwhynot" rationale (or perhaps alternative) in either case.

On 11/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

-if the event is not too hard, GM or player may propose a passion gain, and at the end of the day, the player decides if there is a gain or not and what type (hate, fear, loyalty, lust... etc.. I m not restricted by the list proposed by the rulles, by the way)

I agree, if you go a little off-piste in which Passions you allow this is easier to do.  "OK, you're not Hate-filled, you're not Fearful...  [your emotion go here]."

On 11/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

-if the event is really hard, I consider the personality must be altered, because passions describe the personality. then as a player, I take a passion, as a GM I strongly encourage to do it. At the end of the day, the player choose. Of course a player may explain that does not impact the character because [a good reason] and then it is not an issue for me.

Ultimately of course what happens at your table is key, and down to you (and your table).  Certainly no harm in giving a player some pushback and there being back-and-forth -- indeed that's kinda implied by the whole "discuss" part.

On 11/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

but if i see players using passion only for bonus and not following the story, "their story"... "our story" we are creating, I would be... disappointed

I think the most obvious line of passion-abuse is to take all the increments going, but then just not to trouble to RP any of them.  If someone's eschewing the potential bonus in the first place, I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless it clearly abusive, or just too whimsical to stand.

I may be being unduly pedantic about this -- pedanticker than usual, even! -- but I am just a bit wary of some players being somewhat touchy on this sort of thing with Passions.  Groups should obviously play it the way they feel it -- of course! -- but ideally it's the sort of "house rule" I'd think would be worth flagging up in advance, lest it get even more pushback from coming up in play than it might otherwise.

[soltakss]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:07 AM, Pentallion said:

That means a starting passion at 60% is going to go down on average @0.56% each time you roll against that passion.

And it will start steamrolling downhill once it passes the 50% barrier.

Automatic passion loss for a failed passion roll is perhaps a bad idea? Perhaps have an Inverse Experience roll where they must roll higher than their passion for it to go down? If you're passionate about something, even if you stray now and then, you're unlikely to lose your passion for it.

Yeah, that sounds like a bad idea and I wouldn't do it in a game.

[Bren]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:35 PM, Pentallion said:

I specifically started my thread by saying "I've noticed plenty of examples in the adventures released where if someone fails a passion roll, they lose 1D6 (or some appropriate amount based on the situation). " I'm not trying to call out specific adventures so I'm not giving examples, plenty can be found. I'm only saying it's probably not a good precedent to set to have passions reduced on failed rolls based upon the mathematics I explained above.

Something like this happening in a one-shot, convention adventure wouldn't bother me (either as a player or as a GM). In fact, it seems pretty appropriate as a way of denoting significant things that occurred during play.

In an ongoing campaign, I'd be extremely leery of doing this for two reasons. First, as you pointed out, doing it routinely (or even frequently) is mathematically broken. Second, as Alex pointed out, doing it even infrequently is going to get strong push back from some (maybe most) players.

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Bren said:

In an ongoing campaign, I'd be extremely leery of doing this for two reasons. First, as you pointed out, doing it routinely (or even frequently) is mathematically broken.

That entirely depends how frequently, and whether directed decreases and being balanced out by frequent experience ticks, or indeed by (semi-)directed or "agreed" increases, as the rules do provide some (admittedly indirect) support for doing.

But I think the trouble is we're discussing this without any clarity for what "this" actually is, and if it even relates to the published rules for rolling against them for deliberate attempts to gain Inspiration.  Just that "plenty of examples" exist, but none of them are to be "called out".  D'oh!  For the avoidance of continuing to fail to nail jello to the wall, let's actually say what the potentially problematic cases are.

 

1 minute ago, Bren said:

Second, as Alex pointed out, doing it even infrequently is going to get strong push back from some (maybe most) players.

To be clear, I was talking about something else there: the idea of "mandatory" Passion increases, over the player's protests they don't want them.  Players will not infrequently be somewhat unhappy with "you took away my stuff!" types of development, but that's par for the course in RQ-style games.  What some may be a good deal less happy still with is having something added to their character, especially if it's a "telling me how I'm allowed to play my character" one.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I understand there are two ways to lose passion:

1) when you use your passion to gain something according to your passion (augment, etc...) ==> you lose passion points only on fumble, when you have a chance to raise it (xp check) when you succeed ( the probabilities are more on gain than loss)

 

2) when you decide to go against your passion. It seems normal, from my perspective, that the probability to lose passion is important. If you love / are loyal / .. to someone and act against his/her interest, that would mean your love /loyalty is not so important that you believe, so you doubt, so your passion decreases.

If you hate esrolians, but welcome them to the fest, your hate is not so important, maybe you will even discover that some esrolians may be pleasant, so your hate decreases.

if you kill unarmed people, you're probably not so honorable that you believe, so your honor decreases

 

and that's for me an interesting role play, when two of your passions are in opposition, or when the success needs to go against your feelings

murder the prisonners who offended your clan two days ago, or be honorable and let them alive  ? (honor versus loyalty)

 

no pain, no gain !

Edited November 16, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

To be clear, I was talking about something else there: the idea of "mandatory" Passion increases, over the player's protests they don't want them. 

The rules seem clear that players don't need to roll checks.  So, it's fair for the GM to award a check, perhaps at the player's urging.  At the end of the Season (or whenever you do check resolution), it is the player's choice whether to roll.

page 425, emphasis added:   "At the end of each season, each player can make an experience roll for each check on the adventurer sheet."

If my GM forced Passion increases, I'd probably just ignore that passion whenever he forced a mandatory >80% roll, and drop back down to 80%.

[Alex]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The rules seem clear that players don't need to roll checks.  So, it's fair for the GM to award a check, perhaps at the player's urging.  At the end of the Season (or whenever you do check resolution), it is the player's choice whether to roll.

Fair point and good spot, but again somewhat different from the original context, which is whether "gaining a passion" per RQG p236, and by extrapolation increasing one, should ever be without the "agreement" of the player.

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If my GM forced Passion increases, I'd probably just ignore that passion whenever he forced a mandatory >80% roll, and drop back down to 80%.

"This feels like a case where you need to have some sort of new or increased Passion!"
"What about Hate GM at 60%?"

[PhilHibbs]

Players should have a high degree of agency in their passions. If a character has a bunch of passions all at 60% then I'd encourage them to drop some of them, clearly the character isn't all that motivated about those issues. I'd certainly not risk rolling an augment on a 60% passion! The skill has to be really low for risking that to be worthwhile, and surely there's a better passion you could use.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I understand there are two ways to lose passion:

There is another way - you can transmute a passion once you have a reason to change the verb. Hate can become Fear, and vice versa, or could even swing to Respect. Love can turn into Hate or Loathe, and given a strong enough in game-moment, possibly vice versa, too.

Or you could broaden or pinpoint the object of the passion. Esrolians could become Esrolian Grandmothers, or a specific House or Alliance.