Help to a poor Master: spoiler inside :)

[Tyrian Telbenj]

Hello my friend I would like to speak with you to make a final decision ...

I have been negotiating for about two weeks with one of my players who is also one of my best friends in spite of myself :).
In the adventure of the snakepipe hollow he earned the mouse in a cage which in my adventure was a little dragon.
The little dragon is not an allied spirit but he has some allied spirit powers such as mindlink and being able to cast spells through him.
Besides these it has other very strong powers such as a paralysis power and is very fast flying. My friend, however,
after some playing time he smelled the scam of an ally like the little dragon that does not improve skills, does not learn other languages,
 does not improve skills etc. reading around I found the rule that disembodied spirits have a 5% chance to improve the power
 (in the end I decided to allow that even the dragon improves the power with a percentage of 5% currently has 19 out of 28 maximum).
 Given that I know well that it is then a decision of the master I would like a comfort or a denial ... 
this fucking dragon must improve like a character or not according to the canonical rules?
 Thank you 🙂

Edited December 14, 2021 by Tyrian Telbenj
Grafical adjustment

[svensson]

I don't recall any rules that require a pet to level like a character.

You've specifically said that the dragon-ling is NOT an Allied Spirit, so those rules are out the window. Furthermore it is fully intelligent, 'awakened' in game terms, and so can choose for itself what it wants or doesn't want to learn. Or teach, for that matter. I don't think that POW gain roll when it's appropriate is too much to ask, but within limitations. The dragonling itself would have to cast the spell and match POW v. POW with the opponent, not the PC using the dragonling's POW.

Now, I personally think you've given this PC something over-powered, but I don't know what the 'power-level' of your campaign is. Were I the referee, I'd be looking for a way to 'remove and reward' the PC for their efforts in Snakepipe.... Perhaps have a dragonewt search party seeks out the adventurer and requires him to free the 'baby dream dragon' and they'll give him a gift in exchange. Maybe some of the gear of a fellow cultist of the PC [a Bag of Winds for an Orlanthi, for example], or an increased chance to receive an actual Allied Spirit if and when the PC becomes a Rune Level.

But no, there isn't anything in canon that says a pet, even an intelligent one, HAS to gain skill like an adventurer. ESPECIALLY a dragon. Dragons operate on an entirely different set of mythical and cosmological set of rules than Humans do.

Edited December 14, 2021 by svensson

[Bill the barbarian]

Two thoughts come to mind. 

1/ it seems like the player is browbeating you to go with his will. Having had players like this just let him know (whilst continuing to negotiate in good faith) that you have to  plan out adventures to entertain and challenge the players and if you have an overpowered being entering the game, the job of GMing has just got harder... Point out that as a GM you are allowed to be in error (though the rumour of possessing human limits are still in question) and it is up to the table to help you to make it right. You’re all friends after all, just out to enjoy a game.

2/ Snakepipe Hollow is incredibly over powered as a dungeon. (see, see! I managed to get both dungeons and dragons into this thread...) Maybe a dream dragon (this is a dream dragon, yes? Please do not tell this is an immature True Dragon (is there such a thing?)) as a reward is not going too far. 

Please accept my greetings to you as a new poster here about (Hello) and also do me a favour and edit that first post and include tags warning of spoilers for SPH as well as putting it into the title as well, maybe. 

Cheers

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

Given that I know well that it is then a decision of the master I would like a comfort or a denial ... this fucking dragon must improve like a character or not according to the canonical rules?

You are the GM, you use whichever rules you want to.

So, if you don't want to let it increase, then don't let it increase.

Maybe binding it into a cage has restricted what it can do.

13 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

My friend, however, after some playing time he smelled the scam of an ally like the little dragon that does not improve skills, does not learn other languages, does not improve skills etc.

Players do that kind of thing, it should be discouraged.

13 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

reading around I found the rule that disembodied spirits have a 5% chance to improve the power (in the end I decided to allow that even the dragon improves the power with a percentage of 5% currently has 19 out of 28 maximum).

That is a pretty good decision, it's main focus is as something to cast spells, so allowing it to potentially increase POW is good.

 

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

Hello my friend I would like to speak with you to make a final decision ...

I have been negotiating for about two weeks with one of my players who is also one of my best friends in spite of myself :).
In the adventure of the snakepipe hollow he earned the mouse in a cage which in my adventure was a little dragon.
The little dragon is not an allied spirit but he has some allied spirit powers such as mindlink and being able to cast spells through him.
Besides these it has other very strong powers such as a paralysis power and is very fast flying. My friend, however,
after some playing time he smelled the scam of an ally like the little dragon that does not improve skills, does not learn other languages,
 does not improve skills etc. reading around I found the rule that disembodied spirits have a 5% chance to improve the power
 (in the end I decided to allow that even the dragon improves the power with a percentage of 5% currently has 19 out of 28 maximum).
 Given that I know well that it is then a decision of the master I would like a comfort or a denial ... 
this fucking dragon must improve like a character or not according to the canonical rules?
 Thank you 🙂

Even allied spirits aren't disembodied spirits - that's the whole point! If it's manifested in the regular world, inside a creature or object, it's embodied and goes by the normal rules.

It should probably work as any other character, although you're completely within your rights as GM to say "hey, it's a dragon - it takes centuries for these guys to improve!" After all, they wouldn't want that centuries-old dream dragon they're about to fight get seasonal experience on its combat skills... 🙂

Edited December 15, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Tyrian Telbenj said:

Hello my friend I would like to speak with you to make a final decision ...

I have been negotiating for about two weeks with one of my players who is also one of my best friends in spite of myself :).
In the adventure of the snakepipe hollow he earned the mouse in a cage which in my adventure was a little dragon.
The little dragon is not an allied spirit but he has some allied spirit powers such as mindlink and being able to cast spells through him.
Besides these it has other very strong powers such as a paralysis power and is very fast flying. My friend, however,
after some playing time he smelled the scam of an ally like the little dragon that does not improve skills, does not learn other languages,
 does not improve skills etc. reading around I found the rule that disembodied spirits have a 5% chance to improve the power
 (in the end I decided to allow that even the dragon improves the power with a percentage of 5% currently has 19 out of 28 maximum).
 Given that I know well that it is then a decision of the master I would like a comfort or a denial ... 
this fucking dragon must improve like a character or not according to the canonical rules?
 Thank you 🙂

So lemme guess, it's a True Dragon that got SIZ tapped by Zzabur?  Or do some dragons just dream small?

In terms of your question, much depends on how intelligent the dragon is imo.  If the critter can talk, then it might improve its skills, but if it has a really long lifespan, it might not improve those skills once per season but once per year, once per decade or once per incarnation, I suppose.  It sounds a bit too much like a D&D pseudo-dragon to me.

[Joerg]

46 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So lemme guess, it's a True Dragon that got SIZ tapped by Zzabur?  Or do some dragons just dream small?

In terms of your question, much depends on how intelligent the dragon is imo.  If the critter can talk, then it might improve its skills, but if it has a really long lifespan, it might not improve those skills once per season but once per year, once per decade or once per incarnation, I suppose.  It sounds a bit too much like a D&D pseudo-dragon to me.

Dragons are variable in their size and mass - that's when they collect the surrounding landscape and fly off, leaving a valley behind. There is no observational data for the low end of the range.

Dream Dragons and (first generation) Wyverns are significantly smaller than the big sized dragon. They have enough self-awareness to be individuals different from their parent, and they don't vanish when the dragon awakens. They may fade away or even vanish if their dreamer dragon is slain.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Any NPC (dragon included) may progress in my table.

is it really a "dragon" ? how a gloranthan could know ? it seems to be... but it could be an exotic beast, adragonewt pet, a EWF experience... who knows ? not your PC for sure, but you, of course. This question may help you one day 😛

The potential issue I see is more if this "dragon"  change the "balance" in your game

balance between your players : if your "dragon" friend is defintly more powerful than all the rest of the group, it may be an issue

balance in the campaign: if your "dragon" is able to solve too easily issues your scenario propose.

At the end of the day, your players may be worried or frustrated, as there is no challenge.

Of course, if your campaign and your other players are in the same move, that's fine.

 

I've got an idea to "eject" the dragon, just in case

 

the pc cross a magical road... a dragonewt road. The "dragon" may be disturbed but nothing else..

but the next morning the dragon gains 1 SIZ, someone would see it (roll scan)

and the next morning ... let the owner roll a d10, on a 1, the dragon gains again 1 SIZ. On a 0 it gains 1 POW.

after one season, the gain is 1D6, etc... your friend will be happy to become more and more powerful.

now the dragon hears some sounds no one can here. It can not explain what are these sounds

 

after two or three seasons, sometimes the dragon seems to suffer, is it the body transformation ? the sound ? or something more inside ?

after a year the pet talks to the group (or the dragon talks to its pets :  the pc): It has something to do for few days and don't want to share it

each season it has to go, if the pc accepts, for few days, during scenario, or not. If the pc refuse, the dragon follows them but is demoralized

and one day... the dragon (now big right ?) comes back... but not alone, with another one... (or if it cannot go, the other one come by itself) . And it introduces "dady" dragon who explains with a graceful jet of flame that it has to take of.. the pc gains a powerful friend, but lose a follower.

Note that could be something different than a dragon, a wyvern, or anything, not important, some dragon kin. Something human cannot understand.

[Tyrian Telbenj]

Thanks for support.
 In the end the conscious player realized that my goal was to balance the campaign and avoid having to invent a non-relevant nonsense
 to take away the dragon or let him die :). I am a very democratic master and for me the main goal is to share a path with the players
 (who are my childhood friends ...). Plus, since I don't know the rules well enough and I don't have enough experience as a master,
 I try to stay as relevant to the rules as possible. We concluded by giving a simple 5% improvement of Pow when necessary and to evaluate
 from time to time but in a restrictive manner at most any other improvement of the dragon and any other png.
 Thanks again everyone.

[g33k]

1.  I agree with the others who've stated:
 - this is your creature you invented, at your table.  You are 100% allowed to declare the mechanics work however you want.

2.  I also agree with the sentiment that a "dragon" pet seems distinctly overpowered (see point #4 below).

3.  Games-mechanically, the presumption is usually that all the rules apply equally to PC's and NPC's (the famous RQ quote is, "Monsters are people too!").  So, skills-checks and experience rolls "should be" the expected default (unless you have reasons otherwise); this means that recurring foes should be skilling-up at largely the same rate the PCs do!

4.  In Glorantha, "Dragons" -- True Dragons -- are deity-level beings.  They are, in general, a match for anything else in the setting.  "Dream Dragons" are fairly-dangerous dragonlike monsters that are created by true Dragons' dreams.  Other draconic creatures exist, of varying degrees of power and danger; your mini-dragon is likely such a creature.  Young dragons are actually Dragonewts, who reincarnate through various stages of life, being reborn from their egg, in their original nest, each time they are slain.  The hope is that they will gradually ascend to full dragonhood, but many do not... some side-track, or even devolve, becoming magisaurs & other such creatures.