Why is Open Seas a sorcery in RQ:G?

[Ladygolem]

I've probably missed something but why is Open Seas a sorcery in RQ:G? Every reference I find to it implies it should be a Rune Spell of the Dormal cult. There's overlap between the two magic systems of course, but Open Seas isn't present in the Red Book of Magic either afaict. Presumably the sorcery is how Malkioni ships leave harbor (or not? the recent threads on Malkionism imply that perhaps sailors would still use theist magic anyway). Come to think of it, there's an awful lot of ship related sorcery in the book. What's the context for this?

I ask because a Lhankor Mhy sage in the campaign I'm running selected it as one of the free Sorceries they get from being a philosopher. It's possible they shouldn't have been allowed to take it, whether because of lore reasons or because I misread the rules. If so, I'll consider this a "YGMV" moment just so I'm not taking my player's toys away after allowing them.

[Richard S.]

I think Jeff elaborated somewhere on facebook, but basically Open Seas is a "package" sorcery spell exclusively taught by the Dormal cult to their initiates. I call it a package spell because Dormal apparently figured out how to encode all the necessary Runes and Techniques into the spell itself, so non-sorcerers can learn and cast it without knowing either. It also can't be manipulated for that same reason.

And yeah, it is technically a Dormal cult secret so an LM knowing it is a little curious. Maybe they helped save a ship at one point and were taught it as a gift? Or maybe they are or at one point were an initiate of Dormal themselves?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

I've probably missed something but why is Open Seas a sorcery in RQ:G?

It's knowledge rather than a divine sending or spirit.  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Every reference I find to it implies it should be a Rune Spell of the Dormal cult.

There's been lots of discussion about it in Men of the Sea.  However that was bound up with a lot of Three Worlds silliness which was less than ideal.  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Presumably the sorcery is how Malkioni ships leave harbor (or not? the recent threads on Malkionism imply that perhaps sailors would still use theist magic anyway).

All ships use Open Seas to leave the harbour.  Most sailors use spirit and rune magics but to Open the Seas, they have to have one person on board who knows the spell, regardless of their attitude to sorcery.

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Come to think of it, there's an awful lot of ship related sorcery in the book. What's the context for this?

Ship related sorcery is prominent because the rulebook describes the common sorcery known in the Holy Country (as well as Dragon Pass and the Wastelands).  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

I ask because a Lhankor Mhy sage in the campaign I'm running selected it as one of the free Sorceries they get from being a philosopher.

A Lhankor Mhy Sage knowing something that is next to useless pretty much embodies the cult's mission statement.

 

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Ladygolem said:

Presumably the sorcery is how Malkioni ships leave harbor (or not? the recent threads on Malkionism imply that perhaps sailors would still use theist magic anyway).

It is less about leaving harbor (though that is certainly when the ritual is performed) and more about heading a given distance from the shore when the curse effect begins.  Open Seas exists because of 'The Closing of the Seas', which was a spell cast by Zzabur that causes all blue water sailing vessels to come under continuous attack from sea monsters and natural disasters.  While the exact nature of Open Seas isn't known, it appears to be a 'hack' that allows the bypassing of The Closing via comparatively low level magic ritual.  Of course, with so many ships being destroyed and the art of seafaring essentially lost for hundreds of years, people had stopped experimenting until Dormal came along and figured it out.  This ultimately caused the Boat Planet to reappear in the Sky.

[Baron Wulfraed]

10 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

I ask because a Lhankor Mhy sage in the campaign I'm running selected it as one of the free Sorceries they get from being a philosopher. It's possible they shouldn't have been allowed to take it, whether because of lore reasons or because I misread the rules. If so, I'll consider this a "YGMV" moment just so I'm not taking my player's toys away after allowing them.

It may not matter too much in any event, depending upon the time period of your game... From the Guide to Glorantha vol 2 page 649 (describing some events in 1624)

Quote

In the heavens, the blue Boat Planet returns to traverse the Sky Dome. With that, the Closing of the Seas ends and Dormal’s rites are no longer necessary to travel across the open waters, although it is some time before that is discovered.

No indication of what "some time" entails. Months, years, decades?

Though if the party should attempt deep water travel, I suppose it could be somewhat humorous to have the LM attempt the ritual and not know if they succeeded or failed...

Edited January 8, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed
Added last sentence

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

It may not matter too much in any event, depending upon the time period of your game... From the Guide to Glorantha vol 2 page 649 (describing some events in 1624)

No indication of what "some time" entails. Months, years, decades?

Though if the party should attempt deep water travel, I suppose it could be somewhat humorous to have the LM attempt the ritual and not know if they succeeded or failed...

Are you really going to trust your survival and your cargo to the appearance of a blue planet in the sky. If you think that's the case, you really have never gone sailing on the blue seas!

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Every reference I find to it implies it should be a Rune Spell of the Dormal cult.

It is written up as a Sorcery spell, nut there is no reason at all why it couldn't be a Dormal Rune Spell. In fact, if I ran a Gloranthan RQ Campaign, I would make it a 1 point Dormal Rune Spell.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It is written up as a Sorcery spell, nut there is no reason at all why it couldn't be a Dormal Rune Spell. In fact, if I ran a Gloranthan RQ Campaign, I would make it a 1 point Dormal Rune Spell.

Well of course there are plenty of reasons why it is not a Rune spell. First and foremost is that it has been learned by people who don't necessarily even worship Dormal. 

[davecake]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:11 AM, Jeff said:

Well of course there are plenty of reasons why it is not a Rune spell. First and foremost is that it has been learned by people who don't necessarily even worship Dormal. 

Like the Vadeli, most obviously. 

[Darius West]

This topic has been discussed before on the forum:  Dormal's Loophole

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just coming from my fool brain 

 

it cannot be a divine magic as gods are freezed by the great compromise and the seas were closed after. No god (Well maybe chaotic ?) were able to create a specific spell for that. You may use dispell magic however if you have hundreds ? runepool

Same for spirit.

seems to me dormal does not teach to counter the closure but how to open the door planned by the closure creator