Disruption vs Skeletons

[Dragon]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In whose Glorantha would a Humakti waste Turn Undead on a Skeleton?

Maybe a giant skeleton wielding a tree trunk, that makes sense, but not against a skeleton with fragile bones that smash easily.

I recall a certain skeletal dragon from a certain RQ2 adventure...Turn Undead before it breathes on you would save the day. Of course, those bones had more than one HP.

In all truth, I GMed a party who encountered that one. One party member swung a pole axe, critical success (02 iirc), then rolled the Head location (19 iirc) on the very first round! All rolls out in the open. Fastest final boss encounter ever. Turn Undead may have been quicker, as it would be SR1.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

Another spell exists which specifically includes a Resistance Roll against something with 0 MP.

Except Disrupt does not single out Skeletons and Turn Undead does, which makes it an exception and not the rule.

Having sadi that, I can easialy see that they carried over Turn Undead from the prior edition and did not realize that skeletons no longer have magic points.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, ffilz said:

I would say no gain if you have a 95% chance of success, or maybe have a mathematical 100% or better chance (which pegs at 95%).

IIRC, this is already the official rule, at least since RQ3.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Dragon said:

With that interpretation, the corollary is a character cannot cast Disrupt on a living body who went unconscious due to spirit combat. They also have no magic points - currently.

Correct, but they have POW, and the default roll is POW vs POW, so possible.

[ffilz]

6 hours ago, Alex said:

Y(RQ edition)WV, but RQG covers this explicitly.  "Spells that have a 95% chance of success against an enemy do not provide sufficient stress to allow a POW gain roll."

Well there you go... (Note I still play RQ1...)

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, Godlearner said:

YGWV, but RAW it does not work.

😶 (sorry, I can't find a better "confused" icon...)

 

I see absolutely nothing in RAW for you to be able to make that claim!

There's an inference one could possibly make... But that's all.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, simonh said:

This came up in our games back in the 80s and 90s with respect to disrupting a door. IIRC we decided the spell must target something with Magic Points, because otherwise how does it go through armour without interacting with it? Clearly it's not a physical blast, or it would be obstructed by armour.

If you see Disrupt as a bolt of something that screams past armour, yes, that would make some sense (but also further suggest it could damage objects).

But this consideration would also suggest you couldn't target someone (or someone's body part) if they were hiding behind someone else, as the person in front should take the hit (the same way you suggest armour should(n't).

[Alex]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:01 PM, Anunnaki said:

It seems reasonable to me to give Skeletons 1D6 MPs in RQG, to reflect their creator bolstering their magic defenses. Of course, you could just have "magically weak" skeletons with just 1 MP, or some that have been bolstered to have more than 1D6 MPs (important skellies).

I'm inclined to use a similar rationale, but to use 0 MP as the resistance, which is also vaguely compatible with the "treat null as zero" approach.  While MPs have gone into the creation, that doesn't mean they remain in any form "accessible by" or useful to the skelly.  Or regard as "0 MP to the nearest integer", as distinct from wholly inanimate entities with no MPs (or POW) whatsoever.

From a rules-drafting point of view, there's a degree of ambiguity about the word "target" which generally presupposes an animate such, and in particular here is implied to have hit locations.  But it's also occasionally used in connection with spells that allow inanimate victimisation -- of the Core Book spirit magic spells, only Ignite seems to qualify.  Ideally there'd be distinct wording for these classes of cases, but it's understandable there's not when one sense seems to predominate.

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I see absolutely nothing in RAW for you to be able to make that claim!

It says specifically that you need a resistance roll to overcome. If there is no POW (or magic points) there is no roll. You can not cast it at a table or a door, therefore in RQG, you cannot sact it on a skeleton.

[Richard S.]

Since disruption is called out as damaging the target's body, I don't see any reason why it can't affect inanimate objects or objects without POW/MP. It just doesn't need to overcome any resistance in that case.

[Godlearner]

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I don't see any reason why it can't affect inanimate objects or objects without POW/MP

It would make it OP, at least in my opinion. I can easialy see characters use it to target oponents weapons and armor.

[Godlearner]

12 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

It would make it OP, at least in my opinion. I can easialy see characters use it to target oponents weapons and armor.

Add a point or two of Multispell and ...... blah

[Richard S.]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

It would make it OP, at least in my opinion. I can easialy see characters use it to target oponents weapons and armor.

Even the weakest weapon would take at least two disruptions to break, and while armor doesn't have HP I'd give it comparable durability. It'd take several rounds for a caster to significantly tear through an enemy's gear, in which time they'll have had ample opportunity to close in and stop further casting.

[Godlearner]

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

It'd take several round

Multispell

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Multispell

Sure, you could multispell to shatter a single piece of armor or a weapon or what have you, but it's still just a single piece, and now you're one rune point poorer and not a single point of actual damage richer, and your target and his buddies are probably making a beeline straight for you. If it really bothers you, you could rule "targeting equipment still has to overcome the POW/MP of whoever's holding it" or something like that, but I don't see any real reason why a spell designed to cause minor physical damage should only be allowed to target living things. It's not like RQG is some perfectly balanced masterpiece anyways coughswordtrancecough.

Edit: Hell, you'd probably have to spend 4+ RP to reliably shatter anything more durable than a dagger.

Edit Edit: Also if the owner of your target knows repair, or one of their buddies does, then it's basically a total waste.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Richard S.

[Godlearner]

7 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

now you're one rune point poorer and not a single point of actual damage richer

Yeah, except you can continue casting Disrupt every round and take out every weapon your opponent has, while you friends prevent them from getting to you.  Try that against the Players and see how they like it.

[Alex]

32 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

It would make it OP, at least in my opinion. I can easialy see characters use it to target oponents weapons and armor.

Don't know I'd allow that particular application.  Skeletons are large, discreet, and at least conceptually (as far as the caster is concerned) similar to typical animate targets.  If I'm stuck in a room and want to zap the lock, I can target it by touch, concentration, etc.  But how am I going to isolate a weapon or a particular piece of armour, especially given that I can't target an individual hit location?  Doesn't pass Osi Umenyiora's smell test for me -- and I'm not brave enough to argue with Osi!

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, except you can continue casting Disrupt every round and take out every weapon your opponent has, while you friends prevent them from getting to you.  Try that against the Players and see how they like it.

If you're up against less people than your party, sure that could maybe work, but if just one can slip past the strategy falls apart. That's also a lot of rounds, in which time the other players will probably have taken the poor fellow down to 0 already, defeating the point. It'd make much more sense to just target the opponent directly, since even with magical resistance factored in it'd probably be a comparable number of disruptions.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Richard S.

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

Don't know I'd allow that particular application.  Skeletons are large, discreet, and at least conceptually (as far as the caster is concerned) similar to typical animate targets.  If I'm stuck in a room and want to zap the lock, I can target it by touch, concentration, etc.  But how am I going to isolate a weapon or a particular piece of armour, especially given that I can't target an individual hit location?  Doesn't pass Osi Umenyiora's smell test for me -- and I'm not brave enough to argue with Osi!

That's also a pretty good point. Targeting individual armor pieces or weapons in combat might just be too difficult unless you maybe grab the thing directly. Too much confusion and moving around.

[soltakss]

Quote

Disruption: This spell damages the target’s body. If the target’s POW (or magic points for corporeal entities lacking POW) are overcome, the target takes 1D3 damage to a random hit location. This damage is not absorbed by armor.

The Red Book of Magic says:

Quote

Disruption: This spell damages the target’s body. If the caster overcomes the target’s POW, the target takes 1D3 damage to a random hit location. Physical and magical armor do not protect against this damage.

In both cases, the target must have Hit Locations, which sort-of precludes casting it at an inanimate object, as they do not have Hit Locations.

It ignores armour, so cannot be targeted against armour, also armour does not have Hit Locations.

The Red Book of Magic says:

Quote

Resistance Rolls: Some spells require a successful resistance roll to take effect, overcoming the target’s POW with the caster’s POW on the resistance table (RuneQuest, page 147). If either party lacks characteristic POW, use that party’s current magic point total instead. A target lacking POW or magic points cannot resist a spell being cast upon them unless the spell specifies otherwise.

The Disrupt spell specifically says that POW or Magic Points have to be overcome to cause damage. So, damage it not automatic for things without POW or Magic Points.

Skeletons don't have MPs, but, as I said before, I would still force Adventurers to roll a POW vs POW (0) to overcome, mainly because it is funny when they fail.

[Alex]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In both cases, the target must have Hit Locations, which sort-of precludes casting it at an inanimate object, as they do not have Hit Locations.

In both cases it gives a procedure for what happens with hit locations, but it's not exactly worded as a precondition.  You could make the judgement that's the intent (much as GL suggests with the POW/MP wording), though personally to me it reads more like a reminder of the standard resistance requirement, rather than an initial one.

Then again, it's not like I'm deeply attached to the old-school "agitate them molecules!" interpretation, so if a more detailed gloss happens along that stipulates that it must target a magical entity, rather than a physical one, I'd be happy to go with that.

[Richard S.]

Alright, I've made an interpretation that I'll probably use for my games:

Since it's spirit magic, it's basically just commanding a tiny little dumb spirit to go and rip up the target a little. In combat or similarly chaotic situations all you can really do is throw the spirit at someone and leave the rest to it, there's no time to give it more detailed instructions and it can only really see things with an echo in the spirit world.

Outside of combat, I'd say if you spend a couple minutes and an extra point or two of MP you can be more flexible, targeting inanimate objects or specific locations. The extra time spent is used to direct the spirit more carefully, and the extra MP is used to "highlight" the target for a few seconds in the spirit world so Disruption can see it more clearly. That last part is taking the idea Jeff talked about a while ago that you can sacrifice POW/MP to anyone and expanding it to anything, though things without any magic of their own won't be able to hold onto the power for more than a few seconds.

And of course this is just My Glorantha. YGMV as always.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

...You can not cast it at a table or a door, therefore in RQG, you cannot cast it on a skeleton.

I disagree, I have no problems with treating animated skeletons differently to pieces of equipment. Whether or not they have POW or MPs in this version of the rules doesn't matter to me. Gloranthans have always been able to cast spells on skeletons, so interpreting the rules so as to allow that is the right approach to me.

Edited January 15, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

A target lacking POW or magic points cannot resist a spell being cast upon them unless the spell specifies otherwise.

A chair doesn't have POW or MPs, thus cannot resist, thus automatically takes 1D3 damage... Pretty clear to me... 

[Dragon]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I disagree, I have no problems with treating animated skeletons differently to pieces of equipment. Whether or not they have POW or MPs in this version of the rules doesn't matter to me. Gloranthans have always been able to cast spells on skeletons, so interpreting the rules so as to allow that is the right approach to me.

I agree that we should be able to cast Disrupt on undead skeletons. Another question is whether we can cast Disrupt on a skeleton - as in the unanimated, nonmagical bones that remain after a vertebrate dies. They do have hit locations.

ex: Party sees forty skeletons lying on the floor on the other side of a large room.  Expecting a trap, the Humakti casts Disrupt on one of the skeletons. If it reacts differently than an undead animate skeleton, the Disrupt works a bit like a Detect Undead spell, except it also does damage.

Hence, I am of the mind that it reacts exactly the same: One random bone snaps.