Disruption vs Skeletons

[Mechashef]

As animated creatures instead of true undead, skeletons don't even have MP.

What happens if someone casts disruption against a skeleton.

My thought is that it simply has no effect because I don't allow disruption to affect a chair or a door or a goblet.

An alternative would be that if the roll to cast the spell succeeds, it automatically takes effect doing at least 1 point of damage and thus destroying the location.  But this would then imply it can be used to damage objects.

 

My apologies if this has already been asked and answered.

 

[Scotty]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:13 AM, Mechashef said:

As animated creatures instead of true undead, skeletons don't even have MP.

What happens if someone casts disruption against a skeleton.

My thought is that it simply has no effect because I don't allow disruption to affect a chair or a door or a goblet.

On 1/13/2022 at 6:13 AM, Mechashef said:

An alternative would be that if the roll to cast the spell succeeds, it automatically takes effect doing at least 1 point of damage and thus destroying the location.  But this would then imply it can be used to damage objects.

This is an at your table call, I would:

• Ignore the POW vs POW and roll for location and damage (life is too short to mess around with small stuff).
• Alternatively imagine the POW of the animator, pick a number or roll something like 14+1D6 POW and use that for all of them.
• or as you said, no effect.

[ffilz]

I had this same question a couple months ago... It surprised me that it had never been answered in over 40 years...

[Dragon]

Disrupt has a 'target', not a 'living target'. If Disrupt works on spirits and manifest elementals, I would think it works on skeletons. Zombies are listed with 1d6 MP, with no POW. Skeletons probably should have an MP stat in the Bestiary. Besides Turn Undead certainly works on them, and requires a resistance roll against their MP.

[Godlearner]

Quote

Disruption
1 Point 
Ranged, Instant 
This spell damages the target’s body. If the target’s POW 
(or magic points for corporeal entities lacking POW) are
overcome, the target takes 1D3 damage to a random hit 
location. This damage is not absorbed by armor. 

No POW or magic points = no damage

This discussion brings to mind the old D&D joke about Magic Missiling the dark.😨

[Rodney Dangerduck]

40 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

No POW or magic points = no damage

Huh?  RQG, page 145,

"% success = 50% + (active × 5%) minus (passive × 5%)"

0 is a perfectly legal value for that equation, and it can be "overcome".  If the caster's POW is very low, like Biturian Varosh's Allied Spirit, it may even be a challenge.

[Godlearner]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

0 is a perfectly legal value for that equation, and it can be "overcome".

But its not a 0 it is NULL which is not the same. 

[Anunnaki]

For version comparison purposes:

Skeletons in RQ2 have a POW of 1.

Skeletons in RQ3 have MPs put into them by the creator (used to resist spells).

Skeletons in RQG don't have either option, per the Bestiary (as noted in an earlier post). Nor does the Red Book of Magic have any guidance in the Create Skeleton spell description.

As also mentioned earlier, Zombies have 1D6 MPs in RQG. In RQ3, they get these as part of their creation ritual. In RQ2, they have POW 1.

It seems reasonable to me to give Skeletons 1D6 MPs in RQG, to reflect their creator bolstering their magic defenses. Of course, you could just have "magically weak" skeletons with just 1 MP, or some that have been bolstered to have more than 1D6 MPs (important skellies).

Edited January 13, 2022 by Anunnaki

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

But its not a 0 it is NULL which is not the same. 

Only to a Mostali.  🙂

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Only to a Mostali.  🙂

Or to a Godlearner. 😘

But, if you do not institute this rule then Disrupt can be sued to target anything a chair, a belt, a rope, a sword, etc. A one point spell should not be this powerful.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Or to a Godlearner. 😘

But, if you do not institute this rule then Disrupt can be sued to target anything a chair, a belt, a rope, a sword, etc. A one point spell should not be this powerful.

I'd allow using it on inanimate objects... But swords, ropes, chairs, and even belts aren't going to be broken by just 1D3 points of damage... 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd allow using it on inanimate objects

YGWV, but RAW it does not work.

[GMKen]

I think the real question is what is the nature of the damage inflicted by the spell?  While more recent editions of Runequest merely note that the spell does damage, RQ 2nd edition notes that it is “[a] spell designed to speed up random molecular motion in the target’s body”.  In a POWvPOW damage is inflicted, but that could be considered as life force trying to overcome life force.  Such life force is absent in the case of a skeleton, a magical construct merely given animation, not animus.  So I would rule there is no POWvPOW contest to be made.

The question then becomes what is the nature of the damage inflicted by sped up random molecular motion in a skeleton, or more specifically a bone?  Would it cause crumbling in an old bone?  Ehhh, probably?  At worse I’d consider that the damage would heat up the bone, causing it to lose its integrity.  So I’d allow the direct 1d3 roll on the location from the spell without a POWvPOW.  Then again, magic missiling off an arm or leg of a skeleton doesn’t necessarily cause it to stop.  You need a hit to the head for that...

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by GMKen

[Kloster]

For me, no POW nor MP means no disruption possible, because you have no target. The problem, as Anunnaki described, is that skeleton and zombies had and have not anymore.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd allow using it on inanimate objects.

Skeletons are not inanimate objects.

For me, it is a case of MGF. 

As a Player, I want to be able to blast skeletons with Disrupts, as they are excellent bone-breaking spells.

As a GM, I don't mind Adventurers spending Magic Points to break skeletons.

As for having 0 MPs, that is new and I am not sure I like it. I'd give them 1D6 MPs as a minimum.

In any case, having to roll to overcome 0 MPs is great, as it means Adventurers could fail and be ridiculed for years to come.

In any case, overcoming 0 MPs should not give you a check for a POW Gain Roll.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd allow using it on inanimate objects... But swords, ropes, chairs, and even belts aren't going to be broken by just 1D3 points of damage... 

so do I. I did not notice before this post that there was a restriction. And I m not convinced I would apply it (and disrupting an object is not something I see a lot).

 

[Shiningbrow]

44 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Skeletons are not inanimate objects.

 

That wasn't the intention in my post... but, yes, definitely. (or, did I miss a pun in there??)

I think the question really is - what gets disrupted? A bit of body connected to a spirit? If so, then I get the arguments above. But, if that's not the case, then I don't see how any Pow v anything is relevant.

[Kloster]

54 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think the question really is - what gets disrupted?

In the case of a skeleton, bones, obviously.

54 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, if that's not the case, then I don't see how any Pow v anything is relevant.

This is exactly my point when I said 'No POW, No MP, so no target'.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In any case, having to roll to overcome 0 MPs is great, as it means Adventurers could fail and be ridiculed for years to come.

I like this solution: They are animated, so are a valid target, because they don't have no MP but 0MP: Attack with POW vs 0MP on the resistance table and no possible POW check. I will use it.

[simonh]

This came up in our games back in the 80s and 90s with respect to disrupting a door. IIRC we decided the spell must target something with Magic Points, because otherwise how does it go through armour without interacting with it? Clearly it's not a physical blast, or it would be obstructed by armour.

Arguably you might be able to mentally target the spell at an object, even if it's partially covered by something else, but I think targeting MPs/POW makes more sense.

[ffilz]

I've never considered when to not allow POW gain roll, but rather than saying 0 MP/POW means no gain, I would say no gain if you have a 95% chance of success, or maybe have a mathematical 100% or better chance (which pegs at 95%). Someone with a single digit POW deserves all the opportunities they can get to improve.

[Alex]

8 minutes ago, ffilz said:

I've never considered when to not allow POW gain roll, but rather than saying 0 MP/POW means no gain, I would say no gain if you have a 95% chance of success, or maybe have a mathematical 100% or better chance (which pegs at 95%). Someone with a single digit POW deserves all the opportunities they can get to improve.

Y(RQ edition)WV, but RQG covers this explicitly.  "Spells that have a 95% chance of success against an enemy do not provide sufficient stress to allow a POW gain roll."

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, simonh said:

This came up in our games back in the 80s and 90s with respect to disrupting a door. IIRC we decided the spell must target something with Magic Points, because otherwise how does it go through armour without interacting with it? Clearly it's not a physical blast, or it would be obstructed by armour.

Arguably you might be able to mentally target the spell at an object, even if it's partially covered by something else, but I think targeting MPs/POW makes more sense.

With that interpretation, the corollary is a character cannot cast Disrupt on a living body who went unconscious due to spirit combat. They also have no magic points - currently.

That includes the tactic of tossing a ghost at a Gorp until it stops moving, especially one with the Chaos Feature of Reflects spells up to 4 magic points back at caster without harm to itself. Then the party can cast backed up Disrupts with extra magic points until the darn thing actually dies. Wouldn't want to leave it for the next Orlanthi tribemember to battle.

And Turn Undead as previously stated could not be cast on Skeletons. Skeletons immune to Turn Undead??? In whose Glorantha would that make sense.

I am going to have to go with the overcome the Skeleton as though it has 0 or 1 MP.

[Godlearner]

18 minutes ago, Dragon said:

And Turn Undead as previously stated could not be cast on Skeletons.

Except that Turn Undead says specifically that it can be used on Skeletons.

[soltakss]

24 minutes ago, Dragon said:

And Turn Undead as previously stated could not be cast on Skeletons. Skeletons immune to Turn Undead??? In whose Glorantha would that make sense.

In whose Glorantha would a Humakti waste Turn Undead on a Skeleton?

Maybe a giant skeleton wielding a tree trunk, that makes sense, but not against a skeleton with fragile bones that smash easily.

[Dragon]

Just now, Godlearner said:

Except that Turn Undead says specifically that it can be used on Skeletons.

That was my point. Another spell exists which specifically includes a Resistance Roll against something with 0 MP. Which also specifically has rules for a special and critical success on said Resistance Roll. Hence a Disrupt cast on something with 0 MP also goes on the same Resistance Roll chart with similar rules. 

I was following the quoted logic to all corollaries and showing the absurdity in certain situations.