Cost for Rune Spells

[Soccercalle]

I wonder if the "price" in permanent POW for a non-common Rune Spell is 1 or its number of Rune Points (for example 3 for Thunderbolt). I thought it was the later but then I read on page  314 that "At the tribal temple to Orlanth (a major temple) she (Vasana) sacrifices 2 permanent points of characteristic POW to increase her Rune points to 7. She also gets to select two more cult special Rune spells that she can cast. She chooses to gain Earth Shield and Wind Words.". Earth Shield is a 3 point spell but it seems that the POW cost is only 1. I wonder if that is a typo or if the price for all Rune Spells is 1 POW, no matter the no of RP.

And a related question if it is a typo. Is Command Cult Spirit a spell that you buy once (for the price of 1 POW) and stack for medium or large Elementals. Or do you have to pay more POW to be able to cast larger elementals?

[French Desperate WindChild]

For your first question

if you want any spell you have to sacrifice 1pow

of course if your rune pool is not large enough you will not be able to cast the spell 

(Ex: 1 pow to learn / 3RP to cast)

 

for the summon I consider 3 different spells but I m less sure than for my first answer 

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, learning a new rune spell is independent of the number of RP that you have sacrificed for. I would even allow learning a spell without increasin RP pool, otherwise when you've reached your CHA limit you can't learn any more spells without throwing away POW.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

when you've reached your CHA limit

A few of our PCs are nearing the CHA limit.  I guess we are supposed to join another cult.  Pending the release of any Heroquesting rules...

Anybody have other clever or even good ideas?

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would even allow learning a spell without increasin RP pool, otherwise when you've reached your CHA limit you can't learn any more spells without throwing away POW.

I would allow that too, unless someone can think of a downside.

3 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Is Command Cult Spirit a spell that you buy once (for the price of 1 POW) and stack for medium or large Elementals. Or do you have to pay more POW to be able to cast larger elementals?

AFAIK you have to acquire the appropriate elemental size summoning spell (small/medium/large) to summon the elemental of that size (some cults or ranks only have access to small or medium sized elementals). Once the elemental shows up, it does whatever is natural for it unless you command it. To command it, you stack the Command Cult Spirit spell to the summoning spell (unless somehow you want to command it only later), which spends an extra two Rune Points, regardless of the cult spirit type or size. Note that you need to overcome the spirit's POW to order it around. Also note that the Command Cult Spirit spell is a common spell, so almost everyone has it, you don't need to sacrifice POW to get it. It works on all of the cult's spirits, including elementals. The problem is that it's expensive and requires a POW roll.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A few of our PCs are nearing the CHA limit.  I guess we are supposed to join another cult.  Pending the release of any Heroquesting rules...

Anybody have other clever or even good ideas?

Feed POW to your Allied Spirit, which then sacrifices for Rune Points. Since you and your Allied Spirit share both Rune Points and spells, investing in it works much the same as getting personal Rune Points. 

When this is also full, sacrificing POW for enchantments is good.

If you're a Rune Lord, converting POW to other stats using DI is absurdly powerful (and I have indeed house-ruled it away - a middle ground would be to only allow it for the stat that correspond to its element).

Edited June 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

And a related question if it is a typo. Is Command Cult Spirit a spell that you buy once (for the price of 1 POW) and stack for medium or large Elementals. Or do you have to pay more POW to be able to cast larger elementals?

It's Common, so you don't even have to buy it once - it comes for free. ("Beginning adventurers know all common Rune
spells"). It works for all cult spirits.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Is Command Cult Spirit a spell that you buy once (for the price of 1 POW) and stack for medium or large Elementals. Or do you have to pay more POW to be able to cast larger elementals?

Command (Cult Spirit) is just a flat 2 point spell, so I assume you're talking about summoning. No, you just learn the spell like any other. An Ernaldan can sacrifice 1 POW for 1 RP and at the same time learn Summon Earth Elemental, and from then on she can cast it to summon any size as long as she has the RP available.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A few of our PCs are nearing the CHA limit.  I guess we are supposed to join another cult.  Pending the release of any Heroquesting rules...

Anybody have other clever or even good ideas?

Make matrixes. Might even be a good idea to do that before you get that high, as you will start to not regain them all at worship ceremonies, whereas the matrix gets recharged in addition to personal RP. Well, I assume so, it doesn't actually say whether the matrix points count against the die roll. Still, you could get someone else to refill it who doesn't need to get their points back.

[g33k]

Yes, each point of POW-sac to a deity gets you BOTH :

•  +1 point in the Rune Pool for that deity
•  And any *one* special Rune-Spell from that deity (even a spell that needs more than one Rune Point to cast).

You do NOT have to sac POW = casting-cost.

 

For the "Summons" spells, AFAIK you learn "Summon <X>" but can then cast (summon) anything up to "X" in power.

Generally, then, you learn the most-powerful spell your cult teaches, even though you might not always spend the RP to summon the most-powerful spirit you can.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Feed POW to your Allied Spirit,

...


If you're a Rune Lord, converting POW to other stats using DI is absurdly powerful

How do you feed pow to the ally?

RQG rune lord DI doesn't even cost POW and is completely broken.  We have house ruled much of it.

 

 

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A few of our PCs are nearing the CHA limit.  I guess we are supposed to join another cult.  Pending the release of any Heroquesting rules...

Anybody have other clever or even good ideas?

I would improvise, or grab titles from the JC, to actually run some heroquests.
Enlarging the Rune Pool (and number of spells) would be one of the first/earliest/most-common HQ-rewards; that, and a private pathway back from the Underworld/Death.

 

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How do you feed pow to the ally?

You can feed POW to any spirit, I'm fairly confident.

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

RQG rune lord DI doesn't even cost POW and is completely broken.  We have house ruled much of it.

It effectively costs 1 POW, assuming you want to replace that RP.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

I would improvise, or grab titles from the JC, to actually run some heroquests.
Enlarging the Rune Pool (and number of spells) would be one of the first/earliest/most-common HQ-rewards; that, and a private pathway back from the Underworld/Death.

Is the Hero Soul mechanic still a thing? It's like an additional Rune Pool for heroquesters, you can use it to cast special HQ spells as well as your cult's spells. Jeff used the mechanic in the White Bull campaign, but I think I heard a rumour that it's been dropped as a system.

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

You can feed POW to any spirit, I'm fairly confident.

I'm not aware of that. I seem to remember this discussion coming up once before and I wasn't convinced.

You can give your spare POW to a community wyter though!

Edited June 29, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

Is the Hero Soul mechanic still a thing?

I think it's not being used in that form, at least. I kinda liked the idea, though - I'm concerned that shamans will run away with irresistible Spirit Magic, and a Hero Soul "Rune Fetch" seemed like a nice way for Rune Cultists to be able to keep up.

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not aware of that. I seem to remember this discussion coming up once before and I wasn't convinced.

Shamans certainly can, although this doesn't necessarily help here. Even worst case, you could make some kind of switcharound where you feed POW to a shaman's project and the shaman feeds POW to your Allied Spirit.

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shamans certainly can, although this doesn't necessarily help here. Even worst case, you could make some kind of switcharound where you feed POW to a shaman's project and the shaman feeds POW to your Allied Spirit.

They can do that through spirit cult worship, but I don't think an allied spirit of a theistic cult could or would accept shamanic worship.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

They can do that through spirit cult worship, but I don't think an allied spirit of a theistic cult could or would accept shamanic worship.

And with any spirit through Spirit Pacts (p. 358), which certainly sounds as though shamans can give away POW freely (even if you couldn't perhaps formally Spirit Pact an allied spirit).

And by feeding POW to an ancestor, at least for Daka Fal.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Oh I notice that I answer about summon spell not command. For me there is nobly one command spell as other said 🙂 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

43 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

shaman feeds POW to your Allied Spirit.

The Spirit Pact rules you cite (page 358) apply to a shaman encountering a semi-random discorporate spirit on the spirit plane.  Not an interaction with a particular Ally embodied in a weapon or animal.

I agree with @PhilHibbs - this proposed rules chicanery mechanism is completely unconvincing.

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Spirit Pact rules you cite (page 358) apply to a shaman encountering a semi-random discorporate spirit on the spirit plane.  Not an interaction with a particular Ally embodied in a weapon or animal.

I agree with @PhilHibbs - this proposed rules chicanery mechanism is completely unconvincing.

My reasoning is that sine you can feed those spirits POW, and since you can feed Ancestors POW, it means that you can feed spirits generally POW (how could you even give them POW for a Pact if you couldn't give them POW in the first place?). It's a great currency for making (expensive) deals with spirits, too.

And everyone can at the very least feed spirits POW as part of worship, so it makes sense to me that they can also feed spirits POW more generally, although this is less clear cut. (Further, since you can take POW from certain spirits, such as Disease Spirits...)

But anyway, off-topic! If your GM agrees that this works, it's a great sink for POW until your Allied Spirit is full, is all I'm saying.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A few of our PCs are nearing the CHA limit.  I guess we are supposed to join another cult.  Pending the release of any Heroquesting rules...

Anybody have other clever or even good ideas?

Depends on what you mean by CHA limit: current CHa or 21?

You can train CHA.  Look in the training rules.  You can also research it, though guidance from someone who knows how is better than trying to imitate them without guidance. 

Takes a couple of seasons.

How to envision that? You know, wear new clean clothes indstead of your bloodstained torn adventuring outfit; buy a Rolex- I mean a gold bracelet.  Learn manners, don't belch and fart in polite company.  Read How to Make Friends and Influence People.  

Anyway I do have characters in one of my campaigns who worked on improving CHA for Gloranthan years.

Besides that , they can buy or even make spell matrices.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

You can train CHA.

You still cap at 21 unless Yelmalio, though, so it merely delays things a little.

Spell matrices is the most obvious answer, though. It’s very close to having the Rune Points.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

RQG rune lord DI doesn't even cost POW and is completely broken.  We have house ruled much of it.

 

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It effectively costs 1 POW, assuming you want to replace that RP.

I think you guys are mis-reading the DI rules.

You don't 'lose' RPs the same way you 'spend' them on your Rune spells.

You lose them forever as a sacrifice, just as the POW loss is permanent.

So, is going up 1 CHA worth maybe 10 POW/RPs?

 

Edit - Ok, I was completely wrong...

Edited June 30, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Rodney Dangerduck]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You lose them forever as a sacrifice, just as the POW loss is permanent.

No-uh.  Page 273:  (at least how I parse it)

"As with priests, any Rune points spent in divine intervention are regained normally (at the next Holy Day, etc.)"