BRP Western

[NickMiddleton]

Doug Anderson's Northern Crown is a rather flat commercial publication of the MUCH more interesting "Septentrionalis" setting he posted on line a few years back - a sort of "Mythic" new world in the 17th century, with its historical features intact, but the folktales and myths of both the European settlers AND the Native Americans ACTUALLY being true. The Northern Crown version rather over played the fantasy elements, tying it in to Atlas' previous Nymabe setting and it's d20, so a bit pooh really.

But something like the original "Septentrionalis" but set in say the 1840's or 1850's - grounded in the real history and events of the time but that plays High Plains Drifter / Pale Rider type ambiguities with the reality of both the European settlers superstitions and the Native American's beliefs, that could be really compelling and could have a broad appeal.

Actually, both historical and "mythic" Old West would be good projects for monograph submissions (combined or separate).

Cheers,

Nick

[Aycorn]

This is exactly what I would not buy. I would be interested in either a realistic western setting, or in a version that allows to represent one of the categories of western movies (spaghetti, gritty, classical,...), but not a supernatural western. Perhaps I'm too old for the mainstream tastes.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Unfortunately, I think that's part of the problem. Older gamers may still have grown up at a time when cowboys were the big heroes (that was still going on when I was a kid - late 60's/early 70's - but it was the tail end of it), so I think the interest in a straight western setting is very limited.

Of course, the beauty of a western setting is it could go in any number of directions - straight, supernatural, steampunk ("The Wild Wild West" anyone?).

[Atgxtg]

Guns of the Wild West era were fairly inaccurate. I remember seeing a cowboy series (film?) where there was a gunfight and everyone grabbed the womenfolk and kids and pulled them off the street because the fight was full of wild shots that smashed nearby windows.

So, I'd give handguns an Accuracy score/Penalty. You could even have a special gun that was less inaccurate than normal guns of that model.

That's not really a failing of the handguns, but the effects of combat on the shooters. Between the fear/adrenaline dump, and the desire to get the shot off fast, accruracy goes right down the drain.

Even today, with out modern firearms, and most gunfights taking place at a range of less 20 feet, only about 20% of shots hit.

So I don't think you really need an accuracy penalty. If you wanted to, you could factor in for stuff like adrenaline dump.

[Simlasa]

My first thought was a 'Wild Wild West' type setting... less supernatural, more steampunk... Deadlands kind of does that but like someone said, it's even more cartoony.

But then I remembered a long ago game I played in that was kind of spaghetti western grit and grunge... with a hint of Voodoo. The Voodoo never came into the spotlight enough to be clearly 'real' and may have been purely superstition but it added a bit of mystery to certain parts of town.

These days I'd probably jump at a game with a 'Deadwood' sort of sensibility... that crazy gangland lawlessness... with lots of moral ambiguity.

That and I've always wanted to try writing up a background based on 'Gangs Of New York'... the book, more than the movie... not Western exactly but in the same period. With wild characters like Lizzie the Dove and the Dead Rabbits... not historically accurate but not supernatural either.

[drohem]

That and I've always wanted to try writing up a background based on 'Gangs Of New York'... the book, more than the movie... not Western exactly but in the same period. With wild characters like Lizzie the Dove and the Dead Rabbits... not historically accurate but not supernatural either.

Bill the Butcher is one of my favorite movie 'bad guys.'

[Kloster]

Unfortunately, I think that's part of the problem. Older gamers may still have grown up at a time when cowboys were the big heroes (that was still going on when I was a kid - late 60's/early 70's - but it was the tail end of it), so I think the interest in a straight western setting is very limited.

...

My first answer was that I'm perhaps too old for the mainstream tastes. Having re-read the introduction thread, I now think a lot of us are, even if western made a comeback in the theaters in the 90's that allowed our younger BRPers to know something about this once flamboyant movie genre.

...

Of course, the beauty of a western setting is it could go in any number of directions - straight, supernatural, steampunk ("The Wild Wild West" anyone?).

True, even if I count wild wild west (the real one, without Will Smith) as almost straight classical, although a bit deranged, not as steampunk. I've tried it (with Western Parade, a swiss amateur production), and it took 2 games to transform a game envisionned somewhere between the magnificent seven and the good, the bad and the ugly in something ... weird.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

My first answer was that I'm perhaps too old for the mainstream tastes. Having re-read the introduction thread, I now think a lot of us are, even if western made a comeback in the theaters in the 90's that allowed our younger BRPers to know something about this once flamboyant movie genre.[/quite]

A lot of truth there. I'm not a big fan of many of the "old time" western programs, as they tended to stampt that old "goodie-goodie early-mid cultural values" onto the west, much like everything else from that era.

I like spaghetti westerns though, and some other interpretations.

I'd run Wild Wild West as a spy campaign set in the 19th century. That's about all it was. James Bond/Man from Uncle only 100 years early. Do a few tweaks for the era and equipment ans it would run fine. Personally, I'd probably use the James Bond game for WWW rather than BRP. But certainly easy enough to do.

[Kloster]

...

A lot of truth there. I'm not a big fan of many of the "old time" western programs, as they tended to stampt that old "goodie-goodie early-mid cultural values" onto the west, much like everything else from that era.

I like spaghetti westerns though, and some other interpretations.

...

Same for me. But some old Peckinpah, or Stagecoach, Winetou (no, not Winetou), the magnificent sven, erh seven.

Runequetement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Same for me. But some old Peckinpah, or Stagecoach, Winetou (no, not Winetou), the magnificent sven, erh seven.

Runequetement votre,

Kloster

Yeah. Although Magnificent Seven was yet another converted samurai film (Kurosawa's Seven Samurai). Being a Kurosawa fan, some of my favorite "westerns" are actually Samurai pics. I guess I'm not alone either. Kursawa said that he made more money off of A Fistfull of Dollars than he did off of Yojimbo.

Hell, I didn't like John Wayne until The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

[Kloster]

Yeah. Although Magnificent Seven was yet another converted samurai film (Kurosawa's Seven Samurai). Being a Kurosawa fan, some of my favorite "westerns" are actually Samurai pics. I guess I'm not alone either. Kursawa said that he made more money off of A Fistfull of Dollars than he did off of Yojimbo.

Same for me. My favorite is Kagemusha.

The money he received for the fistful of dollar was not gently given by Leone, though, contrary to the money payed by Yul Brinner. And Lucas never payed for the Hidden Fortress.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Same for me. My favorite is Kagemusha.

The money he received for the fistful of dollar was not gently given by Leone, though, contrary to the money payed by Yul Brinner. And Lucas never payed for the Hidden Fortress.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Yup. AFFoD was sort of funny. Since it was a low budget film that wasn't expected to go anywhere, they never paid for the rights to use Yojumbo. When the film became an international hit (how many Italian moves make it to screens in the US?), the producers suddenly realized what kind of trouble they were in.

As for Lucas and the Hiddren Fortress, there are enough differences from the Film version to let it squeak by. Lucas' early drafts with a 50 year old Luke Starkiller escorting a teenage princess and fighting redeeming his old friend Darth Vader, would probably have had to pay Kurosawa something.

I did notice that Lucas did seem to backtrack on his original statement that the story was told through the eyes of the droids. R2 and CPO aren't in the middle of things in the prequel the way they were in SW. I wonder if that was to distance SW more from HF?

But at least Lucas has spent some money towards preserving Kurosawa's films and even helped finance RAN.

[Kloster]

Yup. AFFoD was sort of funny. Since it was a low budget film that wasn't expected to go anywhere, they never paid for the rights to use Yojumbo. When the film became an international hit (how many Italian moves make it to screens in the US?), the producers suddenly realized what kind of trouble they were in.

As for Lucas and the Hiddren Fortress, there are enough differences from the Film version to let it squeak by. Lucas' early drafts with a 50 year old Luke Starkiller escorting a teenage princess and fighting redeeming his old friend Darth Vader, would probably have had to pay Kurosawa something.

I did notice that Lucas did seem to backtrack on his original statement that the story was told through the eyes of the droids. R2 and CPO aren't in the middle of things in the prequel the way they were in SW. I wonder if that was to distance SW more from HF?

But at least Lucas has spent some money towards preserving Kurosawa's films and even helped finance RAN.

True. Now, :focus:, the mighty western (and BRP of course).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Well, I could stat up more western weaponry. I could even give it dual weapon damages, once that matches with CoC, and another that I think would be more realistic (slightly lower pistols, slightly higher rifles).

With Fast Draw rules adapted from Iaijustu in LotN, is there anything that we need, rules wise?

[Zane]

I'd say one of the main benefits of a setting book is the background material. You can probably put it together yourself pretty easily, but it's much better to have all the information in a neat, RPG-oriented package. So, that includes maps, sample locations (typical small towns, farms, etc.), cultural and historical notes, technology (beyond weapons - transport, communication, medicine). There should certainly be enough for a decent-sized RPG book.

As I've stated I could wing this easily, so this is why I'd buy such a book. Maps would be a real selling point for me.

Zane

[Simlasa]

I wouldn't have much need of maps myself...

Maybe some equipment lists and prices... some career/skill sets...

[Trifletraxor]

Well, I could stat up more western weaponry. I could even give it dual weapon damages, once that matches with CoC, and another that I think would be more realistic (slightly lower pistols, slightly higher rifles).

With Fast Draw rules adapted from Iaijustu in LotN, is there anything that we need, rules wise?

Sounds like a very good start at least.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Sounds like a very good start at least.

SGL.

Weapons are easy. I could get some price lists from some other western RPGs. Could Probably uses professions to get some background skill packages.

It will be another project for the burner.

[Aycorn]

Weapons are easy. I could get some price lists from some other western RPGs. Could Probably uses professions to get some background skill packages.

It will be another project for the burner.

This leads to the interesting possibility that people on the list could collaborate on projects, for official or unofficial use.

[Atgxtg]

This leads to the interesting possibility that people on the list could collaborate on projects, for official or unofficial use.

I know other RPG sites that have done/are doing that. It is especially useful for orphan RPGs.

For my part, I'm fairly good at doing up game stats and conversions. Started it years ago when I started playing RPGs other than D&D, got better at it when writing up more weapons for the Bond RPG, and eventually bought 3G3, VCORPS VDS, and Stuff! and let GReg Porter do all the hard work.

I've got a bunch of Firearm reference books, including one dedicated to the weapons of the Old West, so a table or two of weapon stats would be easy. For the most part it is just cut & paste and covert the damage values.

I'm not to pleased with the CoC firearm damages though. It tends to exaggerate the .45 at the expense of the rifles. I'm thinking of doing two damage values, one in line with CoC and another tweaked a little.

But, if we were doing a western RPG, I would strongly recommend using one of the new Luck rule options to reduce lethality. People could and did get hit multiple times and survive. That would be hard to do in CoC with the fat adds that some firearms get.

[Atgxtg]

Okay, I've started some work on BRP Old West.

I was thinking of the following for handling Fast Draws.

OPTION #1

Fast Draw 10% (Manipulation/Combat Skill)

Success: Can attack at Full DEX, (ignore penalty for reading weapon)

Special Success: Can attack at DEX+5

Critical Success: Can attack at 2xDEX.

Failure: Attack at 1/2DEX (for readying weapon)

Fumble: Fumble.

Does that look good? People can get a little lucky, but it doesn't completely override DEX.

OPTION #2

Fast Draw DEXx2% (Manipulation/Attack Skill)

Successful Fast Draws go off before the DEX rank procedure. Failures act as normal during the turn, including the 1/2 DEX penalty for reading a weapon.

Best success level wins. If success level the same then lowest roll wins.

Preferences?

[Aycorn]

But, if we were doing a western RPG, I would strongly recommend using one of the new Luck rule options to reduce lethality. People could and did get hit multiple times and survive. That would be hard to do in CoC with the fat adds that some firearms get.

This conjures up visions of the old Gahan Wilson cartoon of the gunfight - there's just been a gunfight, and one cowboy is lying dead, while the other, a huge hulk of a man, is lumbering off, riddled with bleeding bullet holes. Two old-timers stand by, commenting: "the trouble with ol' Claude is - don't matter if ya do draw first!"

[Rurik]

Just a thoughts for the western genre and the classic gun duel:

1) Perhaps some kind of Intimidation skill could be used, and give an advantage to the draw - many a western portrays the duel as being psychological as much as pure speed.

2) Maybe some kind of bidding mechanic would be cool for the draw. Each (hidden) bid point adds 1 to your Dex but gives -5% to the shot or something, also fits in with the flavor of the setting. There's probably a better bidding mechanic than the one I just described, but I think bidding would be cool for duels - again cajones counting as well as raw speed.

[Atgxtg]

This conjures up visions of the old Gahan Wilson cartoon of the gunfight - there's just been a gunfight, and one cowboy is lying dead, while the other, a huge hulk of a man, is lumbering off, riddled with bleeding bullet holes. Two old-timers stand by, commenting: "the trouble with ol' Claude is - don't matter if ya do draw first!"

It sort of works that way in combat. We've been conditioned by films, TVs, RPGs to think that if you get shot one or twice, you fall down dead. Truth is, over 95% of wounds don't kill you outright, but kill you over time.

Some of us have talked about using some sort of wounding/delayed fatality mechanic for BRP, but others don't like the idea.

But realistically, it is more the "Oh my God, I've been Shot!" feeling that goes through people when the realize that they've been shot that takes the fight out of them rather than the injury.

The blood lost, damage to organs, and infection generally get you after the shootout.

[Aycorn]

It sort of works that way in combat. We've been conditioned by films, TVs, RPGs to think that if you get shot one or twice, you fall down dead. Truth is, over 95% of wounds don't kill you outright, but kill you over time.

Some of us have talked about using some sort of wounding/delayed fatality mechanic for BRP, but others don't like the idea.

But realistically, it is more the "Oh my God, I've been Shot!" feeling that goes through people when the realize that they've been shot that takes the fight out of them rather than the injury.

The blood lost, damage to organs, and infection generally get you after the shootout.

Yes, but I think most RPG's are more like movies or TV than real life. And I suspect most players would rather have their heroic character die on the battlefield than waste away in a bed somewhere. But I could be wrong.

[Simlasa]

I like the idea of wounding/delayed fatality... it seems really fitting to the period, where relatively minor wounds could be problematic even with medical care. I'd think it would lead to characters avoiding open confrontations and seeking out more advantage... bushwacking, assasination, murder...

From what I've read there weren't really any/many 'showdowns' like seen in movies, but a certain segment of the populace was definitely concerned with carrying weapons they could get into action quickly.

I'm picturing lots of drunken anger that crosses over into sloppy gunplay (which seems to be the story behind most of the gunfights in my (small Western) town's history).

I'm less interested in the wider cinematic tropes... but I'd like to play out something that felt like Deadwood or The Long Riders.