Worship in Malkioni lands part 2

[Godlearner]

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery. The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

 

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery. The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

 

This is really my speculation rather than anything hard and fast.

The Seshnegi nobility could ask a sorcerer to teach them and the latter would be screwed if he refuses.  In practice because sorcery is so difficult and at odds with the noble's lifestyle, few nobles actually bother.  If they wanted quick power, they would worship a demonic ancestor (like Kraljiid Guide p417) and the only people able to stop them are the other nobles.

The Loskalmi Guardians are trained in sorcery.  Their sorcery tends to be limited in scope and most of their magic would come from an Ascended Master.  The Men-of-All are quite good in the sorcery they know but still rely on Ascended Masters and stuff they picked up from the heroquests.  Their wizards are quite skilled after many years of practice but their nobles tend to be the same as the Men-of-All.

Based on the published material, the Black Arkati reserve sorcery for the Illuminates among them.  I think that other colleges might permit sorcery training much earlier but as a general aid to becoming illuminated among other school goals.

As for the cost, Weapons and Equipment has costs for teaching on p118

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery.

The two most populous sects of Malkionism, the Rokari and the Loskalmi New Idealist Hrestoli, have Zzabur castes composed entirely of sorcerers who have mastered techniques and runes. Both these sects are "meritocratic" in that the caste adopts candidates who can learn sorcery from outside of the caste. The Rokari test boys from all castes for aptitude and put the most promising into what looks like monastic academies or possibly individual apprenticehoods with practicing wizards. The Loskalmi observe their pool of Men-of-All and candidates for aptitude, officially without regard for parental caste, and give them preferred schooling in the prerequisite skills and (once henosis was achieved) in spells, runes and techniques.

However, there is a third group of Malkioni who are neither Rokari nor New Idealist Hrestoli. Most of these are members of other forms and offshoots of Hrestolism, including all Arkatism, the Galvosti of northern Safelster, the Makanist Seshnegi of the Castle Coast, Pithdaros and hidden elsewhere in the Quinpolic League and Safelster, and in Fronela outside of Loskalm and Junora. These older forms of Hrestolism recognize a hereditary zzabur caste, where the ability to master techniques and runes is not guaranteed by the RQG rules (unless there is a cheat or caste blessing going on that people born into this caste have a minimal INT of 13). Or alternatively something similar to shamanic taboos to acquire that intellectual capacity, or through gifts and geases masked as Caste Magic.

Roughly half of the offspring of hereditary Zzabur caste members will be female. Declaring those as Menena caste is a convenient cop-out where such a thing is the official reading.

There are sorceresses. The New Idealist Hrestoli have a portion of female men-of-all who can advance to the wizard caste. There may be the "hidden female" Rokari zzaburi boys, but that is a trope that has been done ad nauseum already for Roman Catholic clergy.

There might be a Menena Caste cotery of sorceresses, a secret society with ancient hidden knowledge as gnostic as the Arkati. Whether that would be authentical pre-Dawn Brithos stuff or "re-discovered" in the Malkioni exile needn't be detailed. And it may have different sects. These might have correspondences to major Malkioni philosophical texts opening these for the Menena sorcery, guides how to interprete the Abiding Book or its predecessors for Menenan sorcery. There might be a "woman-of-Menena" status?

 

One major filter for sorcerers is the literacy requirement. In Malkioni society, there is literacy outside of the Zzabur caste. The Talar caste administrators rely on written records, and while there could be a model where all scribes are counted as Zzabur caste members regardless whether they know techniques or not, one of the criteria for achieving Man-of-All status is basic literacy.

 

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

Loskalm has a broad range of people learning basic sorcery while training for Man-of-All status, whether with the intention to reach wizard stage or just for becoming the adventuring questing troubleshooter.

There are Man-of-All sorcerers on the Castle Coast and in non-Loskalmi Hrestoli sects, too.

Caste Magic (however that will turn out) might be applied knowledge rather than inherited rune or battle magic in cases where "sorcery is something you know" applies.

 

The Dormal cult teaches Open Seas both as a spell for sorcerers knowing the relevant runes (and technique) and as a stand-alone sorcery spell that doesn't require either henosis with the Invisible God or having sorcerously mastered any runes or techniques. There still is no officially published information how the Dormal cult does this...

Open Seas for non-wizards could be a precedent for hedge sorcery - knowledge of a specific sorcery spell that cannot be manipulated, that is cast as the spell skill rather than as a rune ratig or POW times five.

Pavic masonry is a dwarf-taught application of knowledge, hence sorcery.

The Vadeli sell sorcery to whoever pays their outrageous fees and is willing to live with the inevitable corruption their magic may bring. Most of their customers may be talar caste or men-of-all, the latter possibly with basic understanding of techniques and runes, the former rarely.

The alchemists' potions might be another such case, with the casting of the sorcery hidden in the alchemy skill. The alchemists "master" alchemical recipes, though, making that alchemy skill something like a catch-all combination of runes and techniques applicable to procucing potions. This might have been learned from the Mostali, whether through Openhandist teaching or clandestine copying of their methods.

Crafting guilds have knowledge-based secrets that may appear fairly mundane to us. Architects, irrigation planners and surveyors have methods to measure angles, elevations and areas, and astronomers calculate planetary paths and their interactions with the constellations behind them.

 

[JRE]

In game terms, as this is the Runequest forum, I would propose that in Malkioni society you may have a non-wizard learning some basic forms and runes. However that learning will be limited and under wizard supervision. As sorcerous efficacy requires the maximum free INT, that makes those that learn sorcery less likely to use spirit magic. That would allow learning and using material manipulation spells for artisans, detection spells for traders or sorcerous combat boosting spells for wizard assistants among the warriors. Command is a likely first technique, as it allows access to all techniques, at a higher cost, and is less socially awkward than Tap (probably the first technique for Brithini and Vadeli, however). Then either an element or a power. In static Malkioni that should be all, but Hrestoli may keep learning. That would mean non-wizards may be very skilled in a few spells, but may well have to pay a lot of MPs. 

Among the Hrestoli (both Old and New) that shows an interest in traversing Hrestol's path, and it will be much easier than among less mobile sects. I can imagine using the wrong sorcery spell may be grounds for excommunication among the Rokari. Which means that it will happen anyway, as once you begin with sorcery, it gets easier. 

That would make Malkioni society quite flexible, as they would have a wide toolkit of magic to tackle a problem. However anyone with access to sorcery will be watched by the wizards. In Safelster secret societies surely teach also specialized magics, and it is the source of rumours and accusations among neighbours. Guilds (Farmer caste on paper) may well have their own secret magics, to supplement their arcane knowledge such as angle transposition or concrete formula. 

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, JRE said:

In game terms, as this is the Runequest forum, I would propose that in Malkioni society you may have a non-wizard learning some basic forms and runes. However that learning will be limited and under wizard supervision.

If we are talking about the Seshnegi, I doubt they would teach sorcery to anybody of a lower caste than himself.  The wizard would lose Rightness for breaking Caste or enabling its breach.  A Hrestoli or an Arkati (in seshnela) would know of sorcery and be willing to teach it to others but this is secret society type hijinks.  

 

17 minutes ago, JRE said:

As sorcerous efficacy requires the maximum free INT, that makes those that learn sorcery less likely to use spirit magic. That would allow learning and using material manipulation spells for artisans, detection spells for traders or sorcerous combat boosting spells for wizard assistants among the warriors.

Okay, here's where I have a problem.  Sorcery is simply not a parallel source of magical power in the way that Spirit and Rune Magic are.  One has to devote time and effort in it to be anywhere good at it.  A non-caste Zzaburi learning a sorcery spell has a magic that has a low chance of success and is limited by literacy.    For the effort anybody puts into sorcery, the person choosing more conventional magics is going to come out ahead.   For example a warrior with boost damage is going to be at a disadvantage when he's up against somebody with True Sword or FirebBlade.  Likewise if a warrior is going to depend on sorcerous healing, he's going to end up like Monty Python's Black Knight before he gets anywhere good with it.

So is sorcery completely useless to non-Zzaburi?  No.  What you should be looking at is the what magic would be useful to them that cannot be easily duplicated with spirit or rune magic.  For the Loskalmi, there's contact with the Invisible God.  

 

 

[JRE]

If you take the Jack of all trades adventurer types, sorcery certainly does not do much for the effort required. But what if you have a sorcerous support, one in each ten warriors, for instance, but at a ratio much higher than the wizards assigned to the military. Add Sorcerous long duration bonus to your short duration spirit and rune magic, and you have a big benefit, just at the cost of having 10% less frontline combatants (though maybe effective second line ones). I am thinking of magics such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armor or Ward against weapons, which can have significant effects with long durations. In our game, even quarrels are ensorcelled to +2D6 Dmg (Boon of Kargan Tor 8), Neutralize  Armor 10, which goes much higher for main weapons before a big fight. Because that is the big difference. In most cases a Bladesharp or a True sword spell will be cast by the user, except in some special cases with large extensions. In the case of sorcery it is almost sure the caster will not be the one using the ensorceled weapon, and the fighter will add, if possible, their own Bladesharp (mainly for the hit bonus) and other magics. 

Similarly, the flexibility of Sorcery would fit with forming materials and construction or long term support. Although we have no official version of the old Form / Set spells, the flexibility of spells like Dominate would indicate you could affect many materials from a base spell, probably based on element. As well magic such as Preserve Item feels more a Farmer caste magic than a wizard one, and another example of a multi-use spell, as you can preserve almost anything.

A special case is all the Ship related and ship combat sorcery magic. Most ships will benefit from having one or several sorcerers onboard, while I doubt many wizards will enjoy being ship sorcerers. As the rulebook stands (and even with the RBoM adding some power to Rune and Spirit Magic), the sea must be dominated by sorcerous cultures, as indeed it seems to be the case, with the open question of Kralori magics. We suppose the Quinpolic league were closet Hrestoli, so they would be open to teach sorcery to others, and that means they may be in high demand in all ports East of Seshnela.

[French Desperate WindChild]

in my poor opinion, sorcery is an elitist option.

You should have proof of your ability to be teached : could be int minimum, and / or your cast if you have one, and / or your sex, and / or your god (not only the religion aka malkionism, do dormali, lunar and lankhoring worship the invisible god to be able to learn sorcery ? )

Then you should join your “school” depending on its criteria. But once you joined it, you must learn, and learn and learn, because it is not like a spirit or rune spell. You need more than one week to be efficient. You need years and years.

So, for me, if you (regular people, not pc) don’t want to become a sorcerer, don’t want to dedicate your life in research and training, you don’t try to learn sorcery, because it is not profitable. Of course there are exception, this one who is able to do a minor effect after two or three or five tries.

 

So let the farmers spend their time to feed the others

Let the warriors spend their time to improve their weapons skills when they are not in battle

Let the nobles (those who manage) lead the societies. But yes some of their kin (those who have time to “lost” because they have no responsibility but the parents wealth) may learn it as a “hobby”

Let the merchants do their business to obtain needed components to others activity and make money for their community (and themselves)

 

Of course some of this “efficiency logic” is in some communities a law (I don’t know which one so I don’t use any example) but that is not only a question of religion:

 is a LM allowed to teach sorcery to anyone who is a reader (aka a LM lay member at least) ? probably

will they do it ? why ? what waste of time ? Teaching a [smart] warrior to see them able to improve their skills 10% of the time and lost them the initiative 90% of their fight because they failed ? It is more efficient to be paid to cast a spell every week/season/ … than to teach them

 

Now what about a pc, or any exception ? Yes they can pay / seduce / join a secret society / ... do what is needed to learn sorcery. And then they will be efficient or not, but they are the exception (good one if they succeed to cast; wrong one if they waste their time for few % and not in cult secret to gain heroic power)

[Jeff]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:04 PM, Godlearner said:

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery. The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

 

Yes. Depending on the local sect. Some sects think that sorcerous techniques ought to be widely taught (such as New Hrestolism). Others think that deep knowledge of sorcerous techniques should be restricted to specialists (such as Rokarism). 

[Godlearner]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Others think that deep knowledge of sorcerous techniques should be restricted to specialists (such as Rokarism). 

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

Depends on the needs of your game and what that lower caste sorcerer has done.  

[Godlearner]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Depends on the needs of your game and what that lower caste sorcerer has done.

I see, so we can use this as guide for local conditions as it seems to run the gamut. Interesting. Thank you.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

Here we really get into legal philosophy.  The Rokari Wizard has an obligation to uphold Caste.  If he doesn't, he loses Rightness and becomes magically weaker.

Not acting contrary to caste is simple enough.

Encouraging others to break caste (ie by teaching them sorcery) is reasonable but the lines in the sand start to become less defined.

Doing nothing while somebody else visibly breaks caste?  If he's a weak peasant, then the answer is clear.  But what if he's a powerful noble?

Having a vague clue that someone or somewhere is possible breaking caste.  A few excitable wizards might think action is necessary but others might want more evidence before they are moved to act.

And of course, following your caste so harshly that it oppresses others and causes them to break caste.  Nothing "wrong" here.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, JRE said:

If you take the Jack of all trades adventurer types, sorcery certainly does not do much for the effort required. But what if you have a sorcerous support, one in each ten warriors, for instance, but at a ratio much higher than the wizards assigned to the military.

The trouble that post could also be filled by a magical specialist in either rune or spirit magic, who are much more common on ground and more effective than your sorcery specialist fighter.  You mention that a sorcery fighter is more likely to cast their magics on other people but that also applies to the magical support specialists of other kinds - HeroQuest RPG even had an Ernaldan subcult for combat support.  

6 hours ago, JRE said:

Add Sorcerous long duration bonus to your short duration spirit and rune magic, and you have a big benefit, just at the cost of having 10% less frontline combatants (though maybe effective second line ones). I am thinking of magics such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armor or Ward against weapons, which can have significant effects with long durations

To get RAW for 50% chance for the above spells requires 50% writing, three spell skills, two Runic Knowledges (Death and Stasis) and two Techniques (Summon and Dispel).  The Runes and Techniques alone is four seasons, the spells another three.  All this is becoming significantly costly timewise for a warrior who studies in sorcery, so much so that he'd be better off not getting involved in combat at all.  As for the magic, he's going to boost nine other warriors.  Let's say that he has 30 magic points.  That's lot for somebody in the Colymar.  That's about 3 magic points of spells each which is barely better than the other warriors' own magics (bladesharp 3 etc).

The numbers aren't stacking up.  To be effective, the sorcerer has to be in the role full-time, which proves the Malkioni reasoning about Caste.  If you want the Malkioni warriors to have sorcerous combat effects then the appropriate mechanism is, I think, Caste Magic and Rightness (My own thinking: treat the Rightness Score as a Free INT and assign sorcery spells to taste).   Or you could give them a Hrestoli Runespell that gives them the temporary runic knowledge of a specific rune and +10% to spell skills per magic point expended in the Runespell.  Which has the added advantage of getting up the nose of the nearest Wizard.

 

 

[Godlearner]

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

To get RAW for 50% chance for the above spells requires 50% writing, three spell skills, two Runic Knowledges (Death and Stasis) and two Techniques (Summon and Dispel).  The Runes and Techniques alone is four seasons, the spells another three.  All this is becoming significantly costly timewise for a warrior who studies in sorcery, so much so that he'd be better off not getting involved in combat at all.  As for the magic, he's going to boost nine other warriors.  Let's say that he has 30 magic points.  That's lot for somebody in the Colymar.  That's about 3 magic points of spells each which is barely better than the other warriors' own magics (bladesharp 3 etc).

The numbers aren't stacking up.  To be effective, the sorcerer has to be in the role full-time, which proves the Malkioni reasoning about Caste.  If you want the Malkioni warriors to have sorcerous combat effects then the appropriate mechanism is, I think, Caste Magic and Rightness (My own thinking: treat the Rightness Score as a Free INT and assign sorcery spells to taste).   Or you could give them a Hrestoli Runespell that gives them the temporary runic knowledge of a specific rune and +10% to spell skills per magic point expended in the Runespell.  Which has the added advantage of getting up the nose of the nearest Wizard.

Right, but you are assuming a warrior picking up sorcery. If you start the other way, an apprentice going bad for example and then becoming a warrior things are work out much better. A warband with a "pet" sorcerer is a much tougher nut to deal with.

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Right, but you are assuming a warrior picking up sorcery. If you start the other way, an apprentice going bad for example and then becoming a warrior things are work out much better. A warband with a "pet" sorcerer is a much tougher nut to deal with.

I'm assuming a warrior picking up sorcery because the topic was teaching sorcery to the non-Zzaburi.  A Zzaburi that starts prancing about in armour is likely breaking caste and becoming magically weaker. 

[Godlearner]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'm assuming a warrior picking up sorcery because the topic was teaching sorcery to the non-Zzaburi.  A Zzaburi that starts prancing about in armour is likely breaking caste and becoming magically weaker. 

But not all Malkioni are caste static and we have discussed learning sorcery outside Zzaburi caste.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

But not all Malkioni are caste static and we have discussed learning sorcery outside Zzaburi caste.

You really have to use examples.  The Loskalmi do not trust Wizards in general and reserve the position for Men-of-All they trust.   The Seshnegi are caste-static.  The Safelstrans do not have caste but their sorcerers tends to be involved with Arkati Secret Societies.  In all cases, the Sorcerors composes less than 1 in 100 of the population and a sorcerer that quits to become a fighter is an unusual story rather than sometime that routinely happens in Malkioni society.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Right, but you are assuming a warrior picking up sorcery. If you start the other way, an apprentice going bad for example and then becoming a warrior things are work out much better. A warband with a "pet" sorcerer is a much tougher nut to deal with.

Not much tougher than an Orlanthi warband with a sword sage tagging along. Someone not focusing full time on sorcery is going to be barely more effective than a rune or spirit magician, and only if they have a lot of time to prepare before each fight. Plus, it's unlikely that the aforementioned rogue wizard will have learned spells that are actually useful to fighters, and the chances of them learning more are slim at best. In Malkioni lands, it's much more practical for the fighters to get their sorcerous aid from actual Zzaburi who specialize in combat support, while their own magic will be regular runes and spirits.

As an aside, I imagine the Brithini can get away with their warriors not having spells because they make up for it with sheer talent and the backing of phenomenally powerful Zzaburi. Their Horali won't be slinging any spirits your way, but they'll probably be lit up like a christmas tree with enchantments and have more skill in their pinky than your whole band combined.

[metcalph]

30 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

As an aside, I imagine the Brithini can get away with their warriors not having spells because they make up for it with sheer talent and the backing of phenomenally powerful Zzaburi. Their Horali won't be slinging any spirits your way, but they'll probably be lit up like a christmas tree with enchantments and have more skill in their pinky than your whole band combined.

The Brithini Horals will have Caste Magic.  In Greg's unfinished Arkat novel, the leading Horals in the Brithini army had various magical abilities.

[Richard S.]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Brithini Horals will have Caste Magic.  In Greg's unfinished Arkat novel, the leading Horals in the Brithini army had various magical abilities.

Ah, whoops, forgot that. Have you read the novel? What sort of abilities did they have? We know that Zzaburi can store MP on the spirit plane, and Talar have some sort of ability to command the lower castes.

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Ah, whoops, forgot that. Have you read the novel? What sort of abilities did they have? We know that Zzaburi can store MP on the spirit plane, and Talar have some sort of ability to command the lower castes.

It's kinda vague in there and the particular ability described in detail was kinda heroquesty.  But I imagine their Horals (as well as the Red Vadeli) can use weapon-related sorcery for their caste magic with spells such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armour and Ward Against Weapons.  Their mortal counterparts have some of these abilities (Boon of Kargan Tor is avoided because better spirit and rune magics are available).

[Richard S.]

37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's kinda vague in there and the particular ability described in detail was kinda heroquesty.  But I imagine their Horals (as well as the Red Vadeli) can use weapon-related sorcery for their caste magic with spells such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armour and Ward Against Weapons.  Their mortal counterparts have some of these abilities (Boon of Kargan Tor is avoided because better spirit and rune magics are available).

From the stuff we've heard about how Rightness works, it doesn't seem like caste magic is sorcery anymore, it's just special abilities you get for being a good Malkioni. Though maybe they could have "condensed" spells like how Open Seas works? With new emphasis on sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, it'd be odd to me if the Brithini, the most fundamental Malkioni of all, let the other castes touch it.

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

From the stuff we've heard about how Rightness works, it doesn't seem like caste magic is sorcery anymore, it's just special abilities you get for being a good Malkioni. Though maybe they could have "condensed" spells like how Open Seas works? With new emphasis on sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, it'd be odd to me if the Brithini, the most fundamental Malkioni of all, let the other castes touch it.

That's quite an inference to draw from only two listed examples.  Since the Malkioni invented sorcery and organized their society by it, I do feel it would be unlikely that they would have a parallel system of magic that isn't sorcery.  As for sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, all that's necessary is that Caste Magic be a limited version of Sorcery and incapable of innovation.

[radmonger]

Shamanism is largely a magic system where you get spirits to cast magic _for you_. I expect caste magic is something similar.

As a sorceror, you require a very specific set of skills, spells, statistics and power sources to cast a specific spell of a long enough duration you never need to recast it.

As a guard, you need to sacrifice some amount of POW, and make a donation of time or money,  to get a permanent or one-shot ability.

If the guard is the player in your group, you don't want to have to work out the skills, spells and available time of whatever sorcerer was on duty that week when they got the magic. So as GM, you use a different magic rule system for what is fundamentally the same type of magic.

So in rules terms, Caste Magic is either Rune Magic, or a slight variant therof. The main difference is that Caste Spells tend to be either 1-use or lifetime-duration, and commonly require maintenance of Rightness to avoid premature expiry. Reusable caste magic would require learning a  'worship name of sorceror' skill. This is generally considered heresy or paganism, even by those that do it.

 

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Shamanism is largely a magic system where you get spirits to cast magic _for you_. I expect caste magic is something similar.

Not how it's shown in the rules.  There spirit magics are something you have and are cast by you.  The colour that the spells are really spirits acting on your behalf  is not mechanistically present in the RQ rules.  So I don't see why Caste Magic should be mechanistically *not* be magic cast by the Malkioni.  

As far as I am concerned, Caste Magic is a mental interaction with the Gods that founded the Castes: Dronar, Talar, Horal and Zzabur.  This neoplatonic awareness is achieved Rightness and gives a variety of magics (Caste specific sorcery) and gifts (like those of the shamans, Yelmalio and Humakt).  The sorcery that is present in the rules is achieved through mental interaction with Malkion the One Mind, a superior being to and Creator of the Four Caste Founders as well as every other God in Glorantha (okay, probably not Vith.  And probably not Dragons etc).  The magic Sorcerers has a freedom untrammelled by the limits of caste - they accept Zzabur's assistance because they are standing on the shoulders of giants. 

Secondly, following the Sorcery is "something that you know".  It seems to me to  contrary to Malkioni philosophy to have Caste Magic be Rune Magic - it should have the look and feel of Sorcery even though it will never be as strong or as versatile as sorcery in the RQG rules.