Worship in Malkioni lands part 2

[metcalph]

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

Nobles leading Earth cults, in particular, especially if they make too many claims about their ancestral connections to the Earth giving them priestly authority, is particularly historically problematic, and will have the Ecclesiarch sending his Watchers around in no time. 

Ecclesiarch?  Who's that?  And why are Nobles leading Earth cults "historically problematic"?  

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

 because if the Talars should discover the War Societies should be doing something so irresponsible as worshipping pagan gods in return for good combat magic, they might have to put a stop to it, and that would irresponsibility compromise their military assets. 

What's a pagan god?  As I've pointed out before, the word isn't used at all in the Guide except for a single legacy text.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

why are Nobles leading Earth cults "historically problematic"?  

Because that was the basis of the Serpent Kings dynasty. And the sort of thing that lead to the need to purge their influence. 
Sure, they aren’t really the same (the Serpent Kings didn’t just lead Earth worship, but also cross-bred with them etc). But being like the Serpent Kings is something that Good Rokari most definitely aren’t. Keep doing That Sort of Thing and before you know it you have the court hobnobbing with nymphs and satyrs and giant snakes. All very well for peasants to sneak off and do that sort of thing, if it’s necessary to keep the crops growing, but it leads to trouble if the nobility do. 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Ecclesiarch?  Who's that? 

It’s an archaic title also held by the Watcher Supreme. 

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Because that was the basis of the Serpent Kings dynasty. And the sort of thing that lead to the need to purge their influence. 

Think you have read the history wrong.  The Serpent Kings died out and one of their successors was Annilla who was sacrificing people in secret.  That lead to the sealing of the temple by the True Hrestol Way.  But that's one historical event and far from Nobles abandoned the worship of Seshna Likita ever afterwards.  The Seshnelan Kings list itself describes the event as the worship of Seshna was "constrained to repress its more savage portions".  Saval himself was crowned using the rituals of the Serpent Kings and the temple itself was open in Second Age Seshnela (Guide p412)

So I really do not see why Nobles leading the Earth cults should be so "historically problematic". If you didn't like the idea, then note I just said it was my thinking, not a statement of truth, and move on.  There's no need to waste time with appeals to authority of a fan publication.

 

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Sure, they aren’t really the same (the Serpent Kings didn’t just lead Earth worship, but also cross-bred with them etc). But being like the Serpent Kings is something that Good Rokari most definitely aren’t.

So why does King Guilmarn wear the Serpent Crown (Guide p412-413) then if the Serpent Kings were so bad? And it's pretty hard to look at the Frieze in

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/seshnela-art-direction/

and reconcile it with your apparent thinking that the Talars worship the Invisible God and nobody else.

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

It’s an archaic title also held by the Watcher Supreme. 

It's not a title that exists anymore in Glorantha.  

[JRE]

The main difference of the Malkioni use of deities and spirits compared to theists is that it is utilitary. They use the local spirits and grain goddesses, but they do not use them as role models, source of inspiration or guides in how to live their life, as they already have a perfect valid and proven system.

That is what makes them more "modern", as they do not have a personal relationship with the spirits or gods, they are a resource to control and if possible exploit And that is a general attitude also among the Farmers, not only the Wizards. It is like building a windmill or using a river to transport lumber.

That allows them to adapt more easily to new territories, or even displace long settled residents, because their magic allows them to adapt, when a spiritual or theist culture would need to integrate and appease the local spirits, they just dominate the weak and bargain with the strong.

They get less out of them, but they also do not suffer mythic requirements in the same way, and the sorcery makes up any shortfall in other magics.

That has always been part of the make up of the Malkioni and taken to the extreme by the God Learners. 

What theists took as Arkat's pragmatism and opportunism is actually part of the Malkioni attitude to treat the other side as a resource to understand and then exploit. Artkat was a conservationist while the God Learners used more of a slash and burn approach...

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

(Pointing here to @Nick Brookes History of Malkionism and it’s lovely depictions of both the outrages of the pagan excesses of the decadent hippy Serpent Kings and the rightful sealing of those dreadful serpent demigods into underground ‘dungeon’ complexes).

Credit where due: the "depictions" are Katrin Dirim's, and those "pagan excesses" and "dungeon complexes" are mostly confined to the bonus content, for sanity's sake.

(If you bought A History of Malkionism and haven't yet downloaded the 40 pages of bonus content, you're really missing out! If you got it in print format only, just forward your DriveThru receipt to me (address below) and I'll email you the files you're missing. Same holds true for any of my Jonstown Compendium books, in case you were wondering)

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

The main difference of the Malkioni use of deities and spirits compared to theists is that it is utilitary. They use the local spirits and grain goddesses, but they do not use them as role models, source of inspiration or guides in how to live their life, as they already have a perfect valid and proven system.

I like and think it as a very important point

the true faith is the faith in the invisible god,

but a bargain activity (don't say worship !) is efficient with what the barbarians call "gods". So why not having trade (sacrifice as payment) with them ?

Of course few people would have a real faith in these entities, but then they are not good malkioni any more (rightness 0 ?) and are now considered as pagans, heretics or anything, and must be reeducated by the zzaburi, keepers of the good morale order

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

and reconcile it with your apparent thinking that the Talars worship the Invisible God and nobody else.

Worshipping other deities, for non-wizards, never breaks caste restrictions in itself. Only actions, not beliefs, can break caste restrictions. The relevant things that do are:

- non-wizards following the priest occupation.

- wizards teaching anyone magic inappropriate for their caste role.

The linked picture shows what are clearly Zzaburi wizard-priests; they have the Law Rune, not an Earth Rune. They are handing the King an enchanted magical object, the regalia of the kingdom. Likely that crown has inscribed spells of some form of incarnate/summon ancestor. Those are entirely appropriate spells for Zzaburi to supply to a Talar.

The King may then use that ancestor magic the Right way, casting _Command Soldier_ or _Detect Loyalty_. Or they could commit a caste violation and cast _Bless Crops_. Few actually-existing Rokari would openly say that such a caste violation reflected badly on the wizard-priests who crowned him. 

But some would quietly think it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

22 hours ago, radmonger said:

Worshipping other deities, for non-wizards, never breaks caste restrictions in itself. Only actions, not beliefs, can break caste restrictions. The relevant things that do are:

- non-wizards following the priest occupation.

I myself that a complicated position - some Seshnegi priesthoods are compatible with Rightness and others aren't.  The two most important ones that aren't are Daka Fal (known IMO to the Seshnegi as Old Man Malkion) and Humakt.

Old Man Malkion's priests are Shamans and Shamanic Gifts and Geases would clash with Rightness and Caste Magic.  The Priests of Old Man Malkion are aware of this, claim to be Righteous nevertheless and blame the incompatibility on Zzabur being vindictive.  Their gifts and geases have a significantly Malkioni air to give their claims some plausibility despite clear wizard proof.  They are loved by the non-Wizards for despite their Noble status, they willingly go out to minister to both the rich and the poor.  They are generally unmolested by the Wizards because they are of noble rank - a Wizard will probably not lose Rightness for attacking a Shaman of Old Man Malkion but he will face the wrath of the Nobles for daring to attack one of them and also the commoners for attacking a popular religious figure.  Commoner shamans of Old Man Malkion only have the support of the commoners and are considered criminals by the authorities.

Humakti have gifts and geases and also sever themselves from society before rejoining.  IMO a Seshnegi that joins Humakt has no Rightness and is considered legally dead.  They participate in Seshnegi society by swearing allegiance to a Noble.  Maybe if that Noble dies, they are supposed to die alongside him.  A humakti that has no Noble master or one that has sworn himself to a non-Noble master is considered a criminal.  Such Humakti are not killed on sight  (other warriors generally have better things to do unless they are much better) but there is stil a huge sense of social unease around them.  Again, the gifts and geases of Seshnegi Humakti might have a Malkioni air.

Ehilm (Yelmalio) also has gifts and geases.  Are his worshippers non-Righteous?  I think instead of having gifts and geases, Seshnegi worshippers would have a bonus on their Rightness and Caste Magic.  But the penalties for breaking Rightness is much harder for them than for other Malkioni.

 

 

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

I myself that a complicated position - some Seshnegi priesthoods are compatible with Rightness and others aren't. 

'Compatible with Rightness' can mean many  things.

Maybe it means that there exist wizards who fully know and understand that god's nature and position in the cosmos. So they can act as sorceror-priests of that god[1], rather than Rune Priests. They don't lose Rightness, and the magic they teach is Caste Magic.

Maybe it means there is a level of indirection going on; the wizards fully understand the summoning and binding spells they use, and the terms of the pacts they are making. They in effect are sorceror-shamans[2]. What the ancestor or spirit does once summoned is not the moral responsibility of the wizard.

Maybe it means that doctrinally one of the above is true, but some or all of the wizards involved are mistaken or lying. They actually do lose Rightness, but take it is a personal failing (or, as suggested, blame it on Zzabur) rather than a systematic issue.

Maybe it just means that the loss of Rightness is written off as acceptable, especially if the cult is secretive or restrictive in entry. It seems clear that no mortal society can have everyone being Right; someone has to take one for the team.

I like both of your examples for how a vaguely priest-shaped hole in society can be filled by non-zzaburi who are nether sorcerors nor priests. Noble shamans healing the ills of the poor, Humakti Rune Lords supplying muscle to the lords.

What I wouldn't expect to see is Rokari sorcerors indulging in any spiritually-risky activities they don't have to. They see themselves as the last best hope of the future. Going round teaching people what they are told is caste magic, but isn't, will be an unbounded source of caste transgressions.  So I can't see that they are going to be publicly leading official Rune Cults.

[1] This is an old joke that captures what I see as the difference between a Rune Priest and a Sorceror-Priest (aka  wizard):

Quote

 

A novice was trying to fix a broken PC by turning the power off and on.

The master, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.”

The master turned the machine off and on.

The machine worked.

 

When a wizard invokes a god, they are far more likely to use a title or descriptive phrase than a name (Old Man Mortal, or Lord Death). The stories they tell of the gods are more noted for having a point than being interesting.

 

[2] This is not that different to the Daka Fal cult, which uses reusable and teachable Rune Magic to kickstart the process of becoming a shaman. Non-cult shamans presumably come to that path as a result of a unique and  likely dangerous spiritual experience[3].

[3] Which, as Monty Python once pointed out, is not a viable basic for a system of government.

Edited October 29, 2022 by radmonger

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Humakti have gifts and geases and also sever themselves from society before rejoining.  IMO a Seshnegi that joins Humakt has no Rightness and is considered legally dead. 

What if the Humakti stays away from THOSE gifts and geases. Severing before rejoining is a form of Baptism. I would say, in the extreme case, their Rightness is set to 0 or 100 and start his life from there.

[Frp]

Do Malkioni need to worship on sanctified ground? 

If so, who sanctifies it?  

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Frp said:

Do Malkioni need to worship on sanctified ground? 

If so, who sanctifies it?  

Presumably the Zzaburi can do something similar with sorcery. We do know it's magically the same as other forms of worship, in that it crosses to the other side. I'd guess that's necessary for the chain of veneration to pass MP to other Zzaburi.

[Frp]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:56 PM, Richard S. said:

Presumably the Zzaburi can do something similar with sorcery. We do know it's magically the same as other forms of worship, in that it crosses to the other side. I'd guess that's necessary for the chain of veneration to pass MP to other Zzaburi.

I'm thinking something more like the worship leader speaks the words, or draws the forms, and the congregants chant or sing to start the ceremony, and augment the leader's worship roll. Not something permanent, like sanctified ground, but closer to an axis mundi. 

I like the idea that just having the worship Invisible God skill you can worship, regardless of sect, caste, or status, by yourself, wherever too.