Worship in Malkioni lands part 2

[JRE]

I fully agree that caste magic is still a personal magic, linked to your position in society and how "Right" you fit in it. We still have no indication how it will be implemented, but it should be something the person can do, mediated by their particular caste, sect and righteousness, a consequence of knowing their place in the Universe. Even if mechanically it appears as a spell, it is a characteristic of the person, not something learnt or infused from outside. 

They still can get magic from outside spirits, if done in the right way, and that can be Right for their caste, but that would be separate, just using spirit entities in the way you would use a river to drive a mill, using the natural laws to get a benefit for you and society.

Following up Joerg's musings on the status of women, they could also be a source of sorcery outside the wizards, in those sects that have a separate women caste. It still has a strong dependence on literacy, but we already know western societies are the most literate in Glorantha. Male wizards will not understand, and probably will not want to, what magic and caste benefits are due to the Menena caste. Other sects are egalitarian, although I would expect only the New Hrestoli take that to the logical limits.

That could mean a pool of single women (whether cloistered or living among men) that could do things outside the basic four castes, as from what we have seen at least the Rokari associate a woman's caste to her husband. Once married, the women could still keep up whatever strange magics they knew. And one technique is enough to handle all techniques, if you are willing to pay the extra MP cost. That could mean spinters and widows get reputations as witches among the Rokari, and maybe other sects as well. 

Something I would like to see (as folk magic, or debased sorcery) would be the possibility to use your actual runic affinities to cast sorcery, with no need to actually get a sorcerous runic affinity. So if you fertility is high, even without formal training in the Fertility rune, you could cast fertility sorceries. And if you are strong in Storm, you could cast Call wind even without any formal training except Command. Initially at very low %, but practice makes perfect.

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Not how it's shown in the rules.  There spirit magics are something you have and are cast by you. 

Agreed; that is why I said shamanism, not spirit magic. Being a member of a shamanistic society or cult involves persuading a shaman to bargain or compell a spirit to teach you magic. By the rules, the spirit is not further involved (unless the nature of the spell implies it, for example summonings). Shamans themselves also get specific magical powers, skills and abiltities.

Buimg a member of a Rune Cuit involves persuading a priest (to request a temple wyter?) to teach you magic. Priests themselves also get specific magical powers, skills and abiltities.

Perhaps confusingly, both of the above methods can get you a spirit or rune magic spell. Mechanically, spirit magic is directly cast and infinitely reusable, rune magic is more powerful, but  has to be paid for in advance, not at the point of casting. But a bladesharp is a bladesharp whether learnt from a god or a spirit, and so is a Cloud Call.

If proper Caste Magic[1] does turn out to be something other than the results of sorcery cast by Zzaburi on other castes, there would either need to be yet another magic system that did describe what does happen when they do, or a justification for why they never would.

1[] there is definitely room for a gradation between different groups of Malkioni in what counts as legitimate caste magic. Do you need to get the magic from a rightful ZZaburi directly, or is it ok to have someone summon a Zzaburio ancestor who knows it? This spectrum ends up with those who consider full by-the-rules Rune Priests of Orlanth to be rightful Zzaburi, Rune Lords of Humakt to be rightful Horali, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

If proper Caste Magic[1] does turn out to be something other than the results of sorcery cast by Zzaburi on other castes, there would either need to be yet another magic system that did describe what does happen when they do, or a justification for why they never would.

why ?

is it usefull to have another system ?

What we know is

- the non zabburi worship entities (i don't say gods 😛 ) and the invisible god

- the non zabburi use caste magic

 

why not considering that caste magic is just the spells (spirit or runic *) that are allowed for their caste

then a horali worshipping humakt(or his local name) is allowed to use any humakt spell when a dromali smith worshipping humakt may know the secret of iron but not severe spirit, for example.

i would prefer to not add new magic system, it would create complexity (and maybe more unbalance and complain), when now we have

 

- a simple system based on POW, for any spell, because it is your "power"

- a simple system based on rune score associated with the desired spell, because it is "some runic one" else magic

- a maybe simple system based on rune score associated with the desired heroic power, because it is your own runic power

- a complex (but for me exactly what should be sorcery for sorcerer = research, study and analysis for both player and character ) system because it is your "science"

 

and as the malkioni have less spells than their theistic/shamanist peers, the rightness score may give some bonus (maybe like the lunar magic*, another sub system, something like the ability to "manipulate" their spirit spells)

 

*game design, not background explanation

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

If proper Caste Magic[1] does turn out to be something other than the results of sorcery cast by Zzaburi on other castes, there would either need to be yet another magic system that did describe what does happen when they do, or a justification for why they never would.

Since we are in the RuneQuest topic area, I am going to stick with what is in the current rule set, and until we see the actual rules for Malkioni zabburi  use sorcery, the other casts use Rune and Spirit Magic and all references to Caste Magic => 😨🤡👺

[radmonger]

15 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Since we are in the RuneQuest topic area, I am going to stick with what is in the current rule set, and until we see the actual rules for Malkioni zabburi  use sorcery, the other casts use Rune and Spirit Magic and all references to Caste Magic => 😨🤡👺

In case my phrasing was a bit indirect, that is my plan too.

A bladesharp is a bladesharp whether learnt from a god, spirit or wizard-priest. The same for any pre-paid (aka Rune) spell .

There are at least 5 currently-unwritten Caste Cults for the West, for Zzabur, Talar et al. No doubt they do have distinctive spells, the same way as any other major cult does. But such Caste Cults would only bend, not break, the Rune Cult writeup format.

Maybe one day there will be an extension to the sprcery rules that does provide mechanical details as to  exactly what restrictions apply when a PC sorceror wants to grant magic to their followers. But there are no RQ rules for Orlanth doing whatever he does to enable an initiate to fly, and no stat block for Humakt that covers why his initiates can't. And that certainly doesn't hinder the playing f Oralnthi or Humakti.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

 

Here's the current rules:

INITIATE MEMBERSHIP

Initiation into the Invisible God cult is a prerequisite for full membership in Malkioni society. Initiation follows several years of caste education and training. Each caste has their own set of rituals, restrictions, special abilities, and associated cults, all unique to that caste. 

Once a person initiates into a given caste, they cannot join a different caste – except by means of the Hrestol cult. 

CASTE RIGHTNESS

Each caste has duties and restrictions which must be maintained to remain a member of the caste.  This is represented by the RIGHTNESS characteristic for Malkioni initiates. Initiates start with a RIGHTNESS of one. RIGHTNESS may have a score greater than one, representing the initiate’s reserve of righteousness. If a character’s RIGHTNESS is less than zero, that character may no longer use any caste magic or special abilities and risks being thrown out of their caste and exiled from Malkioni society.

RIGHTNESS may be increased by adherence to caste duties and restrictions in adversity in ways that create difficulties for the character and make the game more entertaining. Examples include a talar refusing to perform menial labor even though their survival might depend on it, or a dronar refusing to touch a weapon even in self-defense. The gamemaster should not award RIGHTNESS for good dice rolling, simple puzzle solving, ordinary combat successes or any other of the minor accomplishments that might occur during the course of a session.

RIGHTNESS should be reduced by the gamemaster for transgressions against any caste duties and restrictions. 

For each circumstance, the gamemaster should warn the player that a given action will result in an increase or decrease in RIGHTNESS. If the player insists, then RIGHTNESS should be adjusted accordingly.

Initiation into the cult of Hrestol can mitigate this, as a Hrestoli initiate does not lose RIGHTNESS for any action that upholds the Hrestoli code. However, if they violate their caste restrictions in a way that does not uphold the Hrestoli code, they still lose RIGHTNESS.

EXPULSION FROM CASTE

A character with a zero RIGHTNESS characteristic is no longer in good standing with their caste and cannot use any caste special abilities (such as a talar’s Forced Command ability or a zzaburi’s ability to store magic points in the Spirit World) until their RIGHTNESS is positive.

A character with a negative RIGHTNESS may be expelled from their caste by their elders. If this happens they are no longer accepted as members of Malkioni society. If they can get their RIGHTNESS back to positive, they  can submit themselves to caste elders to be brought back (this is often called “Return to Rightness”). The elders may impose penances, fines, and other punishments as a condition for return. Until then they are viewed as outlaws, barbarians, or even krjalki (monsters) by other Malkioni. 

Some sects do not permit a character to return to their caste once expelled. For the Brithini, expulsion is permanent and always results in death.

CASTE RESTRICTIONS AND SPECIAL ABILITIES

Each caste has restrictions which must be followed to maintain their RIGHTNESS. Some castes have special abilities – magical abilities of the caste members. If they are expelled from the caste for any reason, they lose all special abilities of that caste. 

RUNE SPELLS AND DIVINE INTERVENTION

Unlike other cults, the Invisible God does not provide Rune spells, Divine Intervention, or allied spirits. 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Here's the current rules:

Thank you Jeff, that is very usefull. Are special abilities/magical adilities determined by the person's level of RIGHTNESS within thier caste?

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

For the Brithini, expulsion is permanent and always results in death.

In the sense that they lose their immortality, or in the sense that they immediately keel over and die?

[davecake]

My own working assumptions - 

For the Rokari, the Zzaburi must be sorcerers. The other castes may learn sorcery, but seldom do, especially as Horals and Dronars may not be literate. Talars sometimes learn sorcery, but it is rare, and rarer still that they are skilled at it. A farmer Dronar knowing any sorcery is unheard of, but some of the secrets of the crafter sub-caste/guilds are sorcerous, including enchanting, and/or alchemical. The Horali are usually focussed magically on the beast societies, many of which have inner secrets that are downright pagan. The Talari often are quite de facto mostly pagan, with the justification that the god in question is an ancestor - though they are careful to observe caste strictures and maintain Rightness, of course, as their privileges rely on it. 
Cynically, it is easy to see the Rokari as a society that maintains an outward appearance of pious Malkionism, while hypocritically almost everyone (except the zzaburi) flirts with pagan magic regularly and it is required for society to function. But the zzaburi are also necessary for society to function. And they maintain that they are returning to Brithini caste laws, but of course very much of what they consider the law is God-Learner era innovation or Serpent Kings era henotheist holdovers (despite official purging of both those things). 
 

Various Malkioni societies acknowledge that spirit magic is useful, but ‘bad’ for you - mentally unhealthy, reducing Free INT but also clear thought. The ‘right’ way to use spirit magic is using sorcery to bind spirits. Almost all Zzaburi use this (the spirits are both a valuable source of magic points for sorcery spells, and provide the ability to cast convenient and fast spirit magic), but they may not rely on collaboration with specialists rather than learning the spells to do so themselves.  Binding into objects that can be passed on to colleagues is regarded as better form than into animals (‘familars’) among organised schools of the Rokari. 
 

The Brithini do rigidly maintain caste laws, and only Zzaburi learn sorcery. But they rely on many sorcerously produced items, alchemical creations, and they often have what we might consider heroquest powers through centuries of effort and caste rituals (that we would often consider heroquests, of a very uncreative nature). 
 

The Vadeli specialise in creative loopholes in caste law, though mostly maintaining its strict letter to remain immortal. They are all sorcerers, but caste law restricts them to certain sorceries. Brown Vadeli are prevented from casting sorcery that is directly used for war, but have many creative ways around it - for example, animal husbandry is within their caste function, so commanding hordes of monsters to devour their enemies is fine. Much of their sorcery involves having Elemental or Form Runes, though they also are masters of Movement rune magic through their connection to the ancient Viymorni. Red Vadeli, on the other, specialise in magic that directly attacks others and empower their weapons, usually using the Death rune.
They compensate for the issues that having no Talar caste causes in their society either by getting outsiders (most notoriously, Hrestol) to judge disputes, or by adopting Waertagi naval law (hilariously reminiscent of the sovereign Citizen movement), which is why their leaders are always called admirals. 
 

The New Hrestoli Men-of-All all must show some official demonstration of suitability for the Zzabur caste to become a Man-of-All, but I suspect this is pretty minimal, like demonstrating literacy and some study of philosophy. Many ambitious families will start preparing their children early for this. 
All that are capable are encouraged to learn some sorcery in their spare time, but it is only after they become Men-of-All that they are encouraged to study to master runes, and access to the various schools of sorcery is fully opened to them. Most Hrestoli sorcerers are less capable than their Rokari counterparts. 
 

[Eff]

13 hours ago, davecake said:

But the zzaburi are also necessary for society to function.

I think the crux of Rokari and New Hrestol Idealist societies is the question "Why are zzaburi necessary for society to function?" That is, if we have a social order which contains within itself an entire "theistic" or "animistic" society in waiting, why would that fail to function if the zzaburi were removed? And if it would continue to function, why do zzaburi continue to exist? It's easy to see ways that New Hrestol Idealism, with its vision of caste mobility, would be able to preserve zzaburi as long as its social order exists, but for Rokarism, where it's explicit that zzaburi focus exclusively on an abstract religious practice that is not just irrelevant to the lives of the majority of the populace but explicitly hostile to them, it raises the question of why this order has been stable for the past few centuries. 

One answer might be that zzaburi are functionally irrelevant- they have no social cost to their existence, and they offer no social benefit. But that's hardly satisfying, of course. So I think the likely answers probably exist in the space between "zzaburi are beneficiently fundamental to the social structure in an inarticulate way" and "zzaburi are malevolently fundamental to the social structure because the Rokari social structure exists to exploit the other castes, so it's stable in the same way that warrior aristocracies are stable." But maybe I'm missing something, of course. 

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, Eff said:

I think the crux of Rokari and New Hrestol Idealist societies is the question "Why are zzaburi necessary for society to function?" That is, if we have a social order which contains within itself an entire "theistic" or "animistic" society in waiting, why would that fail to function if the zzaburi were removed? And if it would continue to function, why do zzaburi continue to exist? It's easy to see ways that New Hrestol Idealism, with its vision of caste mobility, would be able to preserve zzaburi as long as its social order exists, but for Rokarism, where it's explicit that zzaburi focus exclusively on an abstract religious practice that is not just irrelevant to the lives of the majority of the populace but explicitly hostile to them, it raises the question of why this order has been stable for the past few centuries. 

One answer might be that zzaburi are functionally irrelevant- they have no social cost to their existence, and they offer no social benefit. But that's hardly satisfying, of course. So I think the likely answers probably exist in the space between "zzaburi are beneficiently fundamental to the social structure in an inarticulate way" and "zzaburi are malevolently fundamental to the social structure because the Rokari social structure exists to exploit the other castes, so it's stable in the same way that warrior aristocracies are stable." But maybe I'm missing something, of course. 

All Malkioni would agree that ALL human societies are divided into four castes - the leaders, the magicians, the fighters, and the workers. According to Malkion that is how mortal society functions. And specialists are better than non-specialists. So magic should be handled by specialist magicians, leadership should be handled by specialist leaders, etc. The only real question is how does one get slotted to a specific specialisation. The Idealists say that anyone should be capable of doing whatever they are capable of doing. The Realists say that is a tremendously inefficient approach that always results in disaster. The Idealists say that the Realists are unjust and wasteful of talent. And so on.

[Joerg]

Brithini and by extension also Malkioni society is designed to provide ideal support to the sorcerers, who in return provide magic to protect and enhance society.

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

specialists are better than non-specialists.

Generalists on the other hand are easier to support with limited resources, or otherwise you risk that you don't have the specialist a challenge requires.

This is actually an argument in favor of sorcerers versus theist priests, as sorcerers can research spells for more context than theists limited to their gods' feats. (Theists practicing creative heroquesting are able to find or develop feats that are relevant for a challenge, though.)

[Eff]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Brithini and by extension also Malkioni society is designed to provide ideal support to the sorcerers, who in return provide magic to protect and enhance society.

Well, to unpack this argument a little bit more, Malkioni societies are not massively more successful than other forms of social organization. There has never been a time when God Forgot had an empire dominating all of Kethaela. Umathela hasn't expanded wildly out of the initial settlements, and so on, and so forth. Indeed, examples like Hrestol, the Serpent Kings, and the God Learners suggest that it is stepping outside of the assumptions of the default social order which is necessary to achieve an enduring advantage over other societies (temporarily). What you might even call "heroism". 

So the "protect and enhance society" part would seem to have close to nil effect, because Malkioni society also practices the same kind of theistic and spiritistic magic that their competitors do, but have minimal advantage over them. Which would suggest zzaburi are, in practical terms, parasitic- they take and give nothing of value back. (And I mean, they can't even give philosophy back, because the Rokari philosophy would only be relevant to the congenital elect of the zzaburi. If Malkioni had a stronger belief in reincarnation, that would at least be understandable, but that's not quite evident in the existing sources.) 

Another alternative might be that Malkioni theism and spiritism are simply less effective and sorcery makes up the gap. That when they perform their ceremonies and rituals, they get worse results than members of other societies do. Almost as if their worship was, in some fashion, misapplied... 

EDIT: As far as Brithini go, well, Brithini are consistently depicted as inhuman monsters, and it's entirely believable that inhuman monstrous entities that pretend to be vaguely humanish would be socially strange and implausible. And if for some sick, demented reason you thought the Brithini ought to be basically human, the Brithini caste system is one that ensures kinship between members of the castes and so softens the hierarchical nature of it- there are reciprocal bonds there which weaken hegemonic power. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Eff
Brithini

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Eff said:

So the "protect and enhance society" part would seem to have close to nil effect, because Malkioni society also practices the same kind of theistic and spiritistic magic that their competitors do, but have minimal advantage over them. Which would suggest zzaburi are, in practical terms, parasitic- they take and give nothing of value back. (And I mean, they can't even give philosophy back, because the Rokari philosophy would only be relevant to the congenital elect of the zzaburi. If Malkioni had a stronger belief in reincarnation, that would at least be understandable, but that's not quite evident in the existing sources.) 

Malkioni society doesn't have to be better than Theyalan theism, but the fact that it is still around unlike e.g. the Serpent Brotherhood or the Pendali/Enjoreli speaks for the usefulness of the sorcerers.

Using the Rokari aberration against the Hrestoli who believe in reincarnation isn't quite fair.

The parasitic character of the elites is debatable, but it is a feature of the "Bronze Age" and Ancient societies that Glorantha seeks to mirror that there are ostentatious elites for magical benefits. Zzaburi "ostentation" is different from Talar ostentation (which is similar to theist elites and their ostentation).

[Richard S.]

There's a large "pagan" element in Malkioni society, but I don't think it's really comparable to what you find over in Peloria and the Holy Country. There's no priest-kings or living gods, nationally supported cults, or specifically favored pantheon. The lower castes have their personal magic but the really big kingdom-wide stuff, planting and harvest and sacred time and all that jazz, probably have Zzaburi stepping in to give it some real oomph. Sorts of things that aren't really described in the rules. And of course you can probably ask the local wizard to cast out spirits or give you a blessing or ward or whatever, same as you could a priest or shaman.

[JRE]

In the case of the Kingdom of Seshnela, as presented, the wizards support the Nobles authority and make the armies one of the strongest in Genertela. They also keep the Farmers well fed and tractable. So I consider they are criitical to the society. They also run an inquisition that upholds the status quo. And despite what weird things the God Learners did in the "colonies", the Jrusteli MIddle Seas Empire was clearly Malkioni till the end, and despite what they say, it is the inspiration of the Rokari, with most of the freedoms removed., as those Hrestoli freedoms are blamed for the excesses in the periphery and the Fall.

If we take Arkat's Peace Empire and the MIddle Seas Empire, I would say that no theist culture has come close to worldwide control as the Malkioni, which for me indicates it is magically superior, at least as strong if not stronger than any other. 

The problem with sorcery structured societies is that they need a fairly complex social structure to support the learning and practice of sorcery, and it flourishes with high population, so it is not suitable for wastes or marginal areas, or for small populations.But once you have enough population density and pass the sustainability threshold, the returns from sorcery become huge. At least that is how history has run so far.

[metcalph]

On 10/26/2022 at 4:12 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

why not considering that caste magic is just the spells (spirit or runic *) that are allowed for their caste

Because the Brithini who also use caste magic don't use spirit magic or rune spells.

On 10/26/2022 at 4:12 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

and as the malkioni have less spells than their theistic/shamanist peers, the rightness score may give some bonus (maybe like the lunar magic*, another sub system, something like the ability to "manipulate" their spirit spells)

The sorcerors of Dragon Pass have less spells than their theistic/shamanic peers.  The Malkioni have loads more spells.

 

[metcalph]

There is any number of ways in which Rightness could be used.

1) Rightness as Rune Points to cast caste sorcery.  This has been used in the past for Godunya in AH Gods of Glorantha (and Greg has said at one of the conventions that he thought the Black Arkati would cast sorcery this way).

2) Rightness as a Free INT for caste sorcery.  

3) Rightness as a Logical Fetch.  Non-sorcery spells must overcome a Malkioni's POW + Rightness to succeed.

4)  Rightness as the equivalent of the Vessel in Sandy's sorcery rules.

As for acquiring caste magic, I'm thinking it's really enchantments made by the Zzaburi using the Malkioni's own POW.  Some provide knowledge of a spell, others a magical gift or ability and still others knowledge of a Logical Form (for example a smith might know how to create Logical Swords)

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Because the Brithini who also use caste magic don't use spirit magic or rune spells.

If you assume Zzaburi are the source, or at least gatekeepers, of Caste Magic, then that makes sense. Castes persist mostly because the Zzaburi providing the Caste Magic are required to maintain Rightness in whom they provide that magic to. The words 'cast' and 'caste' very likely are as similar in the relevant Gloranthan languages as they are in English.

Only the Brithini (and possibly Vadeli?) have enough skilled sorcerors to provide all castes with all the magic they might rightfully need. Only they have the magically-productive farmers who can suport the number of required magical specialists, and so on. Though the Hrestoli can perhaps envision getting there in a generation or two, so long as there are no disasterous wars.

Some Malkioni are more 'so the peasants are poor; how is that my problem?'. They do without the full range of Caste Magic, accepting thet the peasants are going to do whatever is necessary to survive, Right or not.

Other Malkioni societies either cheat, or legitimise cheating. If _these_ Rune Priests are totally righteous Zzaburi, then _this_ Rune Spell is totally Caste Magic. This all works so long as the Zzaburi maintain Rightness, and never get confused about whether a particular Orlanthi is Dronal, Talar or Horal.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by radmonger

[Eff]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Malkioni society doesn't have to be better than Theyalan theism, but the fact that it is still around unlike e.g. the Serpent Brotherhood or the Pendali/Enjoreli speaks for the usefulness of the sorcerers.

Using the Rokari aberration against the Hrestoli who believe in reincarnation isn't quite fair.

The parasitic character of the elites is debatable, but it is a feature of the "Bronze Age" and Ancient societies that Glorantha seeks to mirror that there are ostentatious elites for magical benefits. Zzaburi "ostentation" is different from Talar ostentation (which is similar to theist elites and their ostentation).

Well, that's the thing, right? Malkioni societies are roughly on par with non-sorcerous societies in terms of agrarians pushing non-agrarians to the fringe, while supposedly fully containing an entire non-sorcerous society within themselves and ostensibly gaining benefit from their sorcerers by concentrating resources on them. So if XsubMalkioni is approximately equal to XsubOrlanthi, and XsubOrlanthi is (Theism+Animism) and XsubMalkioni is (Theism+Animism + Zzaburi), either their Theism+Animism has to be worse or their Zzaburi ineffectual. 

Which is what I mean by parasitism- Zzaburi suck in resources but, unlike a warrior aristocracy or temple hierarchy, would give approximately nothing back. Which is also a consequence of how Malkioni societies post-bathwater incident have become increasingly less "Malkioni"- the laws of Malkion no longer applying to the peon drones and horals, etc. Because if you had some kind of social order where every class was integrated into it, you could at least envision the worthlessness of the zzaburi being difficult to grasp for people within the system. 

But post-bathwater incident, talars and zzaburi sit atop a mass of conquered subjects who have had "dronar" and "horal" applied to them after the fact, and this is used to describe Malkioni societies right down to the Gloranthan contemporary. There is no social integration, supposedly, and the Malkioni would seem to most closely resemble European colonialism in Africa in their social order. 

I think that's not good, as awful as we agree the Rokari to be. 

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Which is what I mean by parasitism- Zzaburi suck in resources but, unlike a warrior aristocracy or temple hierarchy, would give approximately nothing back.

That's quite claim which I don't think is true.

[Eff]

Just now, metcalph said:

That's quite claim which I don't think is true.

It's nice that you don't think it's true. But the dilemma here is simply that we are told that Rokari society, like all Malkioni societies, has an entire non-sorcerous society within itself, on top of which is layered zzaburi sorcerers. But the Rokari are not massively stronger or wealthier than non-Malkioni societies. 

So either Malkioni spiritism and theism are ineffectual compared to the spiritism and theism of other peoples, or zzaburi sorcery is an ineffectual, marginal addition onto their spiritism and theism. And if we assume the zzaburi take significant resources- that there is a meaningful upward flow in Rokari society from drones and horals and talars to zzaburs- then they would be parasitic. And the first term there is broadly accepted. 

And of course, behind the scenes, all of this is derived from the Malkioni developing as a "purely sorcerous" society in a system where that was an equally capable worldview and magical methodology to theism and animism/spiritism for forming social structures upon and then having sorcery be redefined to the inherent province of a tiny elite. And then systematically closing off various attempts to syncretize old system and nascent new system by emphasizing that Malkioni worship the exact same gods and brutalize very similar spirits to what Sartarites do. 

So if we want the Rokari wizards to be anything other than an instrument for proto-Marxist propaganda, we kind of have to solve this dilemma and answer just what it is that they do, what social function they have, without falling back on "they cast sorceries on the peasants for the benefit of all", which is now absurd when peasants have their own, entirely independent source of beneficial magic, which is just as good as the Sartarite kind. It makes them look ineffectual. 

[metcalph]

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

It's nice that you don't think it's true. But the dilemma here is simply that we are told that Rokari society, like all Malkioni societies, has an entire non-sorcerous society within itself, on top of which is layered zzaburi sorcerers.

I disagree that we have been told that the Rokari society (edit: other than the Zzaburi) is entirely non-sorcerous and I disagree that the Zzaburi are layered on top of it.  There are other ways to construe the statements made in the Guide and elsewhere about the Rokari that do not require us to assume the absolute worst about them.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

But the Rokari are not massively stronger or wealthier than non-Malkioni societies. 

Again that's a claim with which I disagree.  They are one of the centres of civilization and they once managed to conquer the whole world.  

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

So either Malkioni spiritism and theism are ineffectual compared to the spiritism and theism of other peoples, or zzaburi sorcery is an ineffectual, marginal addition onto their spiritism and theism.

A much better way of phrasing this might be, whereas in other societies, magical power resides in the temples, Seshnelan magical power resides in the wizards.  That way, one doesn't have to tie oneself in knots by having to claim that the average seshnegi sucks at spirit or rune magics if their wizards are powerful.  Because that's really confusing two different things.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

And if we assume the zzaburi take significant resources- that there is a meaningful upward flow in Rokari society from drones and horals and talars to zzaburs- then they would be parasitic. And the first term there is broadly accepted. 

Parasitic means they give absolutely nothing in return, which is not supported by the sources.  You can make the same claim about Esrolia in that magical power flows into the Temples (and Esrolia is a high unequal society).  But it does not follow that the temples provide nothing in return and so it should not follow that the Wizards provide nothing in returm,.

 

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

So if we want the Rokari wizards to be anything other than an instrument for proto-Marxist propaganda, we kind of have to solve this dilemma and answer just what it is that they do, what social function they have, without falling back on "they cast sorceries on the peasants for the benefit of all", which is now absurd when peasants have their own, entirely independent source of beneficial magic, which is just as good as the Sartarite kind. It makes them look ineffectual. 

The peasants do not have their own entirely independent source of beneficial magic.  They worship the gods at the direction of the nobility - Seshna Likita for example is an ancestor of the Kings of Seshnela and so her priestesshoods would be restricted to women of noble rank for example.  Both the peasants and the nobles also receive Caste Magic through the guidance of the Wizards and so on, thereby creating an interlocking society.  Yes, the situation is unequal in the favour of the Nobles and Wizards but pretty much every civilized society in glorantha is similarly unequal.  As for solving the dilemma, I think the first step would have been to avoid making cartoonishly sweeping statements about Seshnegi society.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by metcalph

[radmonger]

It seems consistent to me, so long as you don't make additional unstated assumptions.

> peasants have their own, entirely independent source of beneficial magic, which is just as good as the Sartarite kind. 

For it to be _as good_, it would require full time Rune Priests, with ornate temples funded by the rich. 

A full-time Rune Priest of a fertily/farming god would be zzaburi by occupation but dronali by magic. This would not be Right; such an individual could not receive any caste magic. If no Talar breaks caste taboos by financially supporting them, then by the rules, they top out at God Talker.

For Zzabur to maintain Rightness, they can only give Caste  Magic to those following caste restrictions. It would not be Right for a Zzaburi to crown a Talar who had been funding fertility temples. Just as it would not be Right for a non-Talar to own or manage land or other resources that could be used for that purpose.

The core Rokari theme is Return to Rightness. They think they can get back to the stable state of all castes relying on only Caste magic. Their chosen plan for doing seems to be Zzaburi-first. Educate a sufficient quantity of skiiled Zzaburi, with high Rightness. If even a few can get to the point of being immortal, then the resource crunch facing the next generation becomes far easier. 

This means giving up on all the pragmatic relaxations to caste rules that make things work in the short term.

Edited October 27, 2022 by radmonger

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I disagree that we have been told that the Rokari society (edit: other than the Zzaburi) is entirely non-sorcerous and I disagree that the Zzaburi are layered on top of it.  There are other ways to construe the statements made in the Guide and elsewhere about the Rokari that do not require us to assume the absolute worst about them.

Again that's a claim with which I disagree.  They are one of the centres of civilization and they once managed to conquer the whole world.  

A much better way of phrasing this might be, whereas in other societies, magical power resides in the temples, Seshnelan magical power resides in the wizards.  That way, one doesn't have to tie oneself in knots by having to claim that the average seshnegi sucks at spirit or rune magics if their wizards are powerful.  Because that's really confusing two different things.

Parasitic means they give absolutely nothing in return, which is not supported by the sources.  You can make the same claim about Esrolia in that magical power flows into the Temples (and Esrolia is a high unequal society).  But it does not follow that the temples provide nothing in return and so it should not follow that the Wizards provide nothing in returm,.

 

The peasants do not have their own entirely independent source of beneficial magic.  They worship the gods at the direction of the nobility - Seshna Likita for example is an ancestor of the Kings of Seshnela and so her priestesshoods would be restricted to women of noble rank for example.  Both the peasants and the nobles also receive Caste Magic through the guidance of the Wizards and so on, thereby creating an interlocking society.  Yes, the situation is unequal in the favour of the Nobles and Wizards but pretty much every civilized society in glorantha is similarly unequal.  As for solving the dilemma, I think the first step would have been to avoid making cartoonishly sweeping statements about Seshnegi society.

 

Well, let me respond to the section that's at least a coherent reply rather than an absurd line-by-line which ignores that sentences build upon each other.

"The peasants do not have their own entirely independent source of beneficial magic". "Both the peasants and the nobles also receive Caste Magic through the guidance of the Wizards (sic) and so on, thereby creating an interlocking society."

Both of those things are false, or rather, not evident at all in what we are being told about Rokari society by Chaosium. Peasant worship of earth goddesses for agriculture is led by clerical figures from the dronar caste, just like horal worship of totemic spirits for combat is led by horali. Talar ancestor worship is led by either dronar shamans or talars themselves. Zzaburi seem to have no role. The dronars and talars and horals receive caste magic through adherence to the strictures of the Invisible God cult, not via zzaburi intervention. We are indeed repeatedly told by Chaosium that zzaburi dedicate themselves to sorcery and nothing else, that they need all of a human lifetime to become accomplished at it. So in terms of reading the public-facing sources, the sources simply do not support that these proposals you have made are part of the Chaosium understanding of the setting.

But reading them as additions to the setting, what they're doing is moving the zzaburi more towards being brahmins, in that they oversee all areas of religious activity and the most important aspects of it are their exclusive province. They are responsible for holding the collective memory of civilization by maintaining the religious code, with the Abiding Book and whatever other scriptures you want to retain or invent serving for the Vedas and so on. That's certainly a workable editing of the setting! It makes Rokari and Malkioni society make more sense. I have my qualms about it personally, just because I think there are some really unfortunate resonances between Teshnos, the extent to which Malkioni castes are modeled on the varnas, and the extent to which Seshnelans continue to be depicted and read as white. But it's a perfectly good Glorantha. It's just not the one that is being provided to us by Chaosium at the moment.

What's also kind of funny is that the problem isn't that the society is unequal, it's that the inequality would be exceptionally visible to every member of it and the masses would be alienated from the ideology of rule! It's not about moral condemnation of the Malkioni or Rokari, it's about whether their society is plausible. Now, the Chaosium answer seems to be that Malkioni are not really human and don't behave like humans do, but I'm currently striking that as an obvious error mentally.

Anyways, the point of my posts has been to try and develop Rokari and by extension Malkioni society under the Chaosium model by pushing and pulling it. "Cartoonishly sweeping statements about Seshnegi society" is just baffling- Seshnela isn't real, there's no Tanisorians who would be deeply offended by my reductive interpretation of the culture. Seshnela isn't real, so we can talk about it without having to pretend that it is real and that there must be inarticulated depths to it when we want to articulate some of those depths.