Allied spirits with a physical form...

[Shiningbrow]

So, according to the relevant books, allied spirits are cult spirits (no surprise there), but are (typically) restricted to only POW & CHA.

However, there's nothing to stop a hero-type of getting a more powerful - and different - allied spirit, such as an intelligent elemental, or even a guardian spirit (or even a naiad, given that river cults can summon them as cult spirits).

So, if such a spirit is 'bound' as an allied spirit, can it come out of its binding at will, and take on its normal form? (this presumes that it doesn't stay in its normal form generally)

[Scotty]

21 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, there's nothing to stop a hero-type of getting a more powerful - and different - allied spirit, such as an intelligent elemental, or even a guardian spirit (or even a naiad, given that river cults can summon them as cult spirits).

Note that applied spirits aren't summoned, they are sent. 

21 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, if such a spirit is 'bound' as an allied spirit, can it come out of its binding at will, and take on its normal form? (this presumes that it doesn't stay in its normal form generally)

Note they aren't bound, they are persuaded.

Allied Spirits inhabit animals or sacred cult objects (RQG page 227) and are not bound. An allied spirit is a spirit up until it enters its new home, then they are corporate.

Rune level adventurers could certainly quest for more exotic animals / creatures for their spirit to occupy. The spirit stats then replace the previous occupants (remember that Rune Lord and Priest AS have different stats). If the creature is an embodied spirit, then it can naturally discorporate. Otherwise would need to use the Rune spell. Currently the only allied spirits that can do this are Waha riding beasts, as they can learn Discorporate.

While nymphs like naiads would seem useful, they loose 1 mp per 10m away from their river. So unless your Engizi priest is involved in Local river adventures only, they will have to leave them behind. 

You may find the Q&A on allied spirits helpful.

[Shiningbrow]

39 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Note that applied spirits aren't summoned, they are sent.

yes, but they're the same spirits - aren't they?

 

What happens to the animal when the spirit discorporates?

 

43 minutes ago, Scotty said:

While nymphs like naiads would seem useful, they loose 1 mp per 10m away from their river. So unless your Engizi priest is involved in Local river adventures only, they will have to leave them behind.

This is something that's been discussed, but I don't think there's been an official position taken on it. It's been said that for bound spirits, the new binding enchantment takes over from the locale "binding", but that's just here in the forums. Would it not be possible for something similar to happen to an AS? There's obviously some sort of mystical thing happening such that an AS has some sort of connection to its new body... While not a 'binding' per se, it doesn't appear too different (other than the spirit has the ability to leave it of its own volition).

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

yes, but they're the same spirits - aren't they?

That they are spirits, yes. That they are the same no. Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity, and limited in number. Cult spirits are common within the cult

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What happens to the animal when the spirit discorporates?

Same as when a human discorporates. 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is something that's been discussed, but I don't think there's been an official position taken on it. It's been said that for bound spirits, the new binding enchantment takes over from the locale "binding", but that's just here in the forums.

It's not a prepared enchantment, there no POW spent, there's no command or control spell, only a persuasion test. So as they are not magically bound, no.

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would it not be possible for something similar to happen to an AS? There's obviously some sort of mystical thing happening such that an AS has some sort of connection to its new body... While not a 'binding' per se, it doesn't appear too different (other than the spirit has the ability to leave it of its own volition).

As always, GMs can decide otherwise in their games. Rune levels with allied spirits are already powerful, if you want to make them more so, you can give them more powerful allied spirits and abilities.

[Agentorange]

What happens to the aninals original spirit ?

The Allied spirit moves into the body of the animal....but what happens to the original spirit ? is it just displaced into the spirit world, is it sent on a all inclusive holiday somewhere for the duration. ?

Does the animal have to be willing on some level to all this ?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

What happens to the aninals original spirit ?

The Allied spirit moves into the body of the animal....but what happens to the original spirit ? is it just displaced into the spirit world, is it sent on a all inclusive holiday somewhere for the duration. ?

Does the animal have to be willing on some level to all this ?

The allied spirit did not take over the body of animal. The animal or item is awakened by the god, or alternatively the spirit physically manifests as the animal or item. 

So for example, Jareena Alone becomes a Wind Lord of Orlanth Adventurous. During the ritual that creates that magical link with the god, the god sends to her an allied spirit, who manifests in this world as a shadow cat.  

[Agentorange]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The allied spirit did not take over the body of animal. The animal or item is awakened by the god, or alternatively the spirit physically manifests as the animal or item. 

So for example, Jareena Alone becomes a Wind Lord of Orlanth Adventurous. During the ritual that creates that magical link with the god, the god sends to her an allied spirit, who manifests in this world as a shadow cat.  

ah, right. it's just that on page 277 of the RQG rulebook it says:
"Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects"

Which I must admit I took to mean that the  animal or object already existed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

ah, right. it's just that on page 277 of the RQG rulebook it says:
"Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects"

Which I must admit I took to mean that the  animal or object already existed.

You re not alone 🙂 

however Jeff’s answer is interesting, less impressive (no sacrifice ) but more vegan 😛 

Months ago I had the idea of the both ways:

the regular way when your priest decide to organized the approval ceremony and then come with the animal or objet destined to « welcome » the allied spirit (if the new rune master is accepted)

and another way, when the god itself decide to promote* the initiate and send directly an allied spirit in a material form

 

* with the same magical advantages but not the social role. but the new holy person would be able to present some clear evidence of her new status if she wants

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

however Jeff’s answer is interesting, less impressive (no sacrifice ) but more vegan 😛 

 

I kinda like it myself!

[Akhôrahil]

Several of my players hope for Awakened shadowcats eventually, and as some have shadowcats with impressive POW already, they wonders if it’s possible to get the current shadowcat awakened merely with INT added (not purely from minmaxing but also sp that it’s the ”same” cat).

It will probably depend on my mood whether it happens. 🙂

Edited November 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

On 11/6/2022 at 9:51 AM, Agentorange said:

ah, right. it's just that on page 277 of the RQG rulebook it says:
"Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects"

Which I must admit I took to mean that the  animal or object already existed.

It can be whichever we think works best for our story or our campaign. I tend to describe it as the spirit was always there and it is awakened. So that ancient sword? Humakt has awakened its spirit so that it can work with you. That big sacred bison? Storm Bull awakened it and it is now able to communicate with you.

But there is no need to establish a one true method. Maybe it works better for you to imagine that Orlanth sent a spirit to possess the shadow cat or a sword or whatever. Then just make it so.

 

[PhilHibbs]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:28 PM, Agentorange said:

What happens to the aninals original spirit ?

The other answer to this, of course, is "Does anybody care? Maybe it gets sacrificed to the god. Hurrah! Worship Roll bonuses all round!"

[svensson]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It can be whichever we think works best for our story or our campaign. I tend to describe it as the spirit was always there and it is awakened. So that ancient sword? Humakt has awakened its spirit so that it can work with you. That big sacred bison? Storm Bull awakened it and it is now able to communicate with you.

But there is no need to establish a one true method. Maybe it works better for you to imagine that Orlanth sent a spirit to possess the shadow cat or a sword or whatever. Then just make it so.

 

My own reading of Glorantha materials regarding Spirits is kind of 'Shinto-esque' ['Shinto-ish'?]. That all objects of significance... a pool, a baby, a tree, a stone... have an innate and latent existence that humans call 'a spirit'. Most often these spirits are not awakened and are therefore of no more [and no less!] consequence than a rock in a farmer's field. But some are awakened and are worthy of reverence or fear depending on each individual's interpretation of and interaction with them. They become, for lack of a better term, a Shintoist kami.

In talking about this with Sven Lugar, I was told that this is pretty much in line with Greg Stafford's beliefs, although Sven said pretty emphatically that Greg wouldn't have put it quite that way.

And that, for my game table, is Maximum Game Fun. YOUR Glorantha no doubt varies.

[svensson]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:28 AM, Agentorange said:

What happens to the aninals original spirit ?

The Allied spirit moves into the body of the animal....but what happens to the original spirit ? is it just displaced into the spirit world, is it sent on a all inclusive holiday somewhere for the duration. ?

Does the animal have to be willing on some level to all this ?

The spirit is returned to it's Founder [Hykim and Mikyh by default] for whatever fate it is promised in the afterlife. Eiritha allows the spirit to exist in a place perfect for that particular herd beast for a time and it is then returned to the Mundane Plane to regenerate the species on Glorantha.

[Bill the barbarian]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But there is no need to establish a one true method. Maybe it works better for you to imagine that Orlanth sent a spirit to possess the shadow cat or a sword or whatever. Then just make it so.

 

Having long been a proponent of the game being ours after we purchase it, I must say I find your being a very vocal proponent of letting the table decide (and keeping canon for Chaosium) to be incredibly refreshing.

Cheers and thanks very much!

[Agentorange]

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The other answer to this, of course, is "Does anybody care? Maybe it gets sacrificed to the god. Hurrah! Worship Roll bonuses all round!"

I care....if only out of curiousity 😆

[Agentorange]

27 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It can be whichever we think works best for our story or our campaign. I tend to describe it as the spirit was always there and it is awakened. So that ancient sword? Humakt has awakened its spirit so that it can work with you. That big sacred bison? Storm Bull awakened it and it is now able to communicate with you.

But there is no need to establish a one true method. Maybe it works better for you to imagine that Orlanth sent a spirit to possess the shadow cat or a sword or whatever. Then just make it so.

 

All of which seems perfectly reasonable.

[Akhôrahil]

With a sword, I would be sorely tempted to have the next person killed by it become its only semi-willing spirit… 🙂

[JRE]

As in so many things in Glorantha, I would play that the expectations shape the event if everything goes the right way. If the cult / worshippers / PCs expect the spirit to be replaced by one straight from Yelm's court, that will happen. If they expect Storm Bull to instill a tiny fraction of its power on their loyal bison and awaken it, that will be it. 

If something goes wrong, however, that is when the GM has to earn their keep and propose something unexpected (and ideally fun, but that is difficult, so I settle for unexpected and hope for the best).