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is it possible to create or change a god ? (apotheosis excluded)


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7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Before the God Learners, was there ever a myth about Magasta being deposed by Wachaza?  No.  But after the God Learners, the myth is as real as all the other myths about Magasta and Wachaza.  We can only distinguish it from the others because of our knowledge of history.  But that is irrelevant to the mythic world.  

I noticed a Vadrus-worshipper in Greg’s early Harmast fiction, and we semi-soberly agreed that the God Learners must have decided in the Second Age that Vadrus had been “killed by Chaos in the Great Darkness,” and made it so.

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3 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

While Osiris would be jealous -- after all, they were unable to recover one desirable piece.

Sedenya’s equivalent piece is now the Red Emperor, just saying.

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6 hours ago, Jeff said:

The archetypes and patterns of the God Time are eternal and fixed. But what we in Time experience of the God Time, what we call things, what we offer magic points to and draw upon when we use magic - that changes as we mortals do. "Myths" are the stories we tell about the God Time - we can see the God Time in our rites, our ceremonies, and when the Gods World is close to us. Sometimes we can even interact ourself with the archetypes and patterns of the God Time - that's what we call Heroquesting.

Yelmalio - Little Sun - is a title. We apply it to the Light in the Darkness, the light remained when the Sun was killed and the light that refused to go out in the Darkness. We have places where we can meeting the Little Sun, where he is so close you can reach out to touch him. We can walk in his path and ascend to the Hill of Gold and try to fight against the Darkness, but we know that our god was defeated by Orlanth and robbed by Zorak Zoran - that's part of his definition. If we do not experience that, we do not follow in his path. Like a Jesus who is not crucified.

But perhaps something we thought was the Little Sun - his Golden Spear perhaps - is something that we can draw power from directly. We can worship the Golden Spear as a god, separate (but associated) with Yelmalio. Or perhaps we see the time that Yelmalio worked with Orlanth and decide to focus only upon that, and call that subset of Yelmalio with the name Elmal. Or perhaps we experience Yelmalio as merely the light that emanates from Yelm, and worship Yelmalio merely as an attribute of Yelm.

Perhaps on a heroquest, we follow Yelmalio's path, are extinguished but rekindle ourself with our purity. We bring this back to our temple with a new Rune Spell of one-use Resurrection or maybe just Restart Fire.  Perhaps we gain a new gift, not on the list, or take a new geas, not previously seen. In this way, cults may change.

 

Thanks Jeff

you confort me. For decades, I have believed / misunderstood that the term "myth" in glorantha was equal to "history" -aka what the gods did -

but no they are "just stories" that people believe (with more proof than elsewhere as they can all "experiment")

Im happy to see I was wrong and the gloranthan myths are just myths. I m so confortable now !

 

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@jajagappa I fully agree with your description of the impact for the community, no issue, and i would consider fool any yelmalian wanting to save the fire too (in fact a part mad people, who can hope changing the eternal gods ?)

 

but if I choose Hill of Gold that is because this the quest where I have no question thanks to @soltakss site years ago (I can't put the link on your site, it doesn't respond)

 

 

@Joerg thanks too for your explanation (in msg).

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8 hours ago, Jeff said:

The archetypes and patterns of the God Time are eternal and fixed … Sometimes we can even interact ourself with the archetypes and patterns of the God Time - that's what we call Heroquesting.

One way to read “interact” would be that there is a give and take between the heroquester and the entities and events of God Time: both are changed, efficient causation goes both ways. However, the fixity of God Time has been clearly asserted, so that is not what is meant by “interaction” here. We are not fighting Fritz’s Change War.

So in what sense does the heroquester interact with the God Time? If I were to say “Sometimes I can change myself (and perhaps the world around me) by meditating on the unchangeable archetypes and patterns of the God Time - that's what we call Heroquesting” by how many miles would I have missed your point? On this conception of heroquesting, one cannot really bring back help from the God Time, because one cannot have any effect upon it (as it is fixed). Heroquesting isn’t time travel — which is a delusion — it is more like thinking about history. Doesn’t sound so sexy. Might make for saner religion.

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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I would say the answer is clearly "Yes", as demonstrated by both the God-Learners and the EWF in the Second Age. (Also Nysalor or The Red Goddess.)

Far more challenging are questions like "can you make it stick?" or "is this ever wise"? 🙂

Personally, I read every case of someone "proving" something about a god in Gloranthan sources as "made it up and made it stick".

Edited by Akhôrahil
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11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Or Moorock's Behold the Man.

Presumably Nick’s guy with the pliers was supposed to be the anti-Glogauer.

Moorcock quotes Jung, which bears on the ‘imitate your god’ theme here:

Quote

We Protestants must sooner or later face this question: Are we to understand the “imitation of Christ” in the sense that we should copy his life and, if I may use the expression, ape his stigmata: or in the deeper sense that we are to live our own proper lives as truly as he lived his in all its implications? It is no easy matter to live a life that is modelled on Christ’s, but it is unspeakably harder to live one’s own life as truly as Christ lived his.

Which is one answer to ‘should I contrive to lose to Zorak Zoran?’

Edited by mfbrandi
now with added CGJ

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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14 hours ago, metcalph said:

Before the God Learners, was there ever a myth about Magasta being deposed by Wachaza?  No.  But after the God Learners, the myth is as real as all the other myths about Magasta and Wachaza.  We can only distinguish it from the others because of our knowledge of history.  But that is irrelevant to the mythic world.  

Agree. It's not so much that you change the Gods World, as that you make it so that this was always the case.

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As the change happened in time, IMG people will remember that Magasta used to be stronger, but that those godless sorcerers weakened him and Wachaza took part of his power.

As that is what people experience when going to the other side, it is quickly accepted that it was always this way and those godless sorcerers crippled him in the Godtime, not a century ago. That makes written records extremely dangerous and important, as the change, if it sticks, is reinforced in each worship ceremony.

There should be a period of conflict between the old and the new myth, and the cult hierarchy will try to defend their status quo by questing in the traditional way. It may well require beating almost all priests to make such a change stick. Or you can have a localized effect like the long winter, as you do not beat all Orlanthi priests and Ernalda priestesses in Glorantha, but you beat all those that try in Dragon Pass, and the others do not dare to go against you in the other side, so the change sticks.

Inversely, it may be a consequence of the Orlanth and Ernalda cults puring their power and support in Whitewall, so when Whitewall falls, they cannot resist the subsequent Lunar heroquest that officially kills them, as they are already beaten with the fall of Whitewall. The risk of committing too much power in one conflict. Orlanthi in Ralios were not involved in Whitewall in significant numbers, so they did not suffer the consequences.

Records are important because they show you what was made, and that can always be unmade. 

Could the illiteracy curse be an Argrath effect, to make unmaking his changes to the world harder?

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1 hour ago, JRE said:

Inversely, it may be a consequence of the Orlanth and Ernalda cults puring their power and support in Whitewall, so when Whitewall falls, they cannot resist the subsequent Lunar heroquest that officially kills them, as they are already beaten with the fall of Whitewall. The risk of committing too much power in one conflict. Orlanthi in Ralios were not involved in Whitewall in significant numbers, so they did not suffer the consequences.

I think the idea is that it's the last significant temple to Orlanth within the area of effect of the Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon (which becomes the area of the Windstop). Doesn't mean that you're wrong, though - it could be both.

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32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think the idea is that it's the last significant temple to Orlanth within the area of effect of the Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon (which becomes the area of the Windstop). Doesn't mean that you're wrong, though - it could be both.

or (just an option, not opinion) there are some "runic regions" :

in a runic region, if something enough important happen to the godplane, then all the region is impacted. the other regions may be impact too but less.

in the same way that there is heroquest impacting the heroquestor and heroquest impacting the community (village/ clan / tribe)  , we may have heroquest impacting a region (another example may be Snodal's travel)

we know at least two heroquests impacting the (mundane world) after all ( Zzabur * and Argrath **)

 

* don't know if it was a real heroquest or "just" mundane sorcery but in my opinion it cannot be only made with mundane material

** in fact I don't know if what is said about the gods after Argrath is only for the "region" or for the world

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
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17 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or (just an option, not opinion) there are some "runic regions" :

I mean, yes - for one thing, we have maps of the areas of influence of Orlanth’s holy mountains, which will presumably be connected to the Temple(s?) of the Reaching Storm, and the way the Ban lifts over discrete areas at once (and hit all but only Fronela in the first place). There’s doubtlessly a magical geography of some sort in this way.

One thing I don’t believe we have a canonical answer to is if the Windstop has any effects (apart from some airflow) outside its area. i’m going to run it as weakening but not shutting down the magics.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would say the answer is clearly "Yes", as demonstrated by both the God-Learners and the EWF in the Second Age. (Also Nysalor or The Red Goddess.)

Far more challenging are questions like "can you make it stick?" or "is this ever wise"? 🙂

Personally, I read every case of someone "proving" something about a god in Gloranthan sources as "made it up and made it stick".

I'd carefully reread my earlier post. There's a lot in there, and the answer is definitely more than "can you make it stick".

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Now the Red Goddess was different. She is something that did not exist in the God Time. Our Red Goddess went deep into the Underworld, was defeated and lost, met the Cosmic Spider and was illuminated by Nysalor, and bound the Devil in order to change the cosmos. In short, she used Chaos to break the Cosmic Compromise and create a new archetype that had not existed in the God Time - the Red Moon. Sure there was a broken and dead Moon Goddess, several even. But they were broken pieces of a funhouse mirror. But the Red Goddess reassembled those fragments and used Chaos to do the impossible. 

The only other example that comes close is the use of the Pseudo-Cosmic egg by the Second Council to create a new god - Osentalka the Perfect One. 

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One paradox I always wonder about is this - if you’re questing the Hill of Gold as Yelmalio, you’re supposed to lose against Zorak Zoran, but you’re also supposed to give it your best (it’s not as if Yelmalio didn’t try to win, and intentionally losing doesn’t strike me as right). But giving it your best means that you could potentially win, which is not what’s supposed to happen.

How does this work out? Is it that if you go into it really trying your damndest to win, you’re displaying an incorrect mindset? That you can only win by spending spiritual-magical resources here that you shouldn’t spend? Or is it just something that sometimes happens - you do everything you should be doing, but sometimes things just don’t work out the way they should anyway?

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2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

you’re also supposed to give it your best (it’s not as if Yelmalio didn’t try to win, and intentionally losing doesn’t strike me as right). But giving it your best means that you could potentially win, which is not what’s supposed to happen.

How does this work out?

Presumably in the original myth, Yelmalio did not know Zorak Zoran would be there - he was ambushed.  (Or perhaps he expected ZZ at point X, and ZZ ambushed him at point Y.)

And that likely means that Yelmalio's purpose at that stage in the Hill of Gold myth is NOT to fight ZZ, it's to achieve something else.  The fight occurs because Yelmalio likely must salvage something of the Sun from the Darkness.  He might have anticipated that Darkness was after the same thing, or that Darkness would try to seize it, but his quest was not to fight ZZ per se.  

Subsequent questers know Yelmalio's story.  And it seems likely they may have to make a choice - they can pursue their quest and save something of the Sun; or they might try to anticipate ZZ/Darkness being there, and assuredly fail in the actual quest.  This changes the approach that questers take and can explain why they might not "do everything" to beat ZZ.  

What the quester won't know is: 1) where ZZ/Darkness appears - he might even appear before the meeting/challenge with Orlanth (who is expected); 2) if it will actually be ZZ who appears or some other Darkness entity (or maybe it's a water demon instead!); and 3) if someone with him betrays him (e.g. he knows where ZZ's camp is, and tries to avoid it, but a companion/trickster is in league with Darkness).

 

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9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One paradox I always wonder about is this - if you’re questing the Hill of Gold as Yelmalio, you’re supposed to lose against Zorak Zoran, but you’re also supposed to give it your best (it’s not as if Yelmalio didn’t try to win, and intentionally losing doesn’t strike me as right). But giving it your best means that you could potentially win, which is not what’s supposed to happen.

How does this work out? Is it that if you go into it really trying your damndest to win, you’re displaying an incorrect mindset? That you can only win by spending spiritual-magical resources here that you shouldn’t spend? Or is it just something that sometimes happens - you do everything you should be doing, but sometimes things just don’t work out the way they should anyway?

i had the same paradox in mind until this post (and in fact... that's one of the reasons of my post)

yelmalio (or the god behind yelmalio) tried to win of course but was defeated.

now when you're heroquesting you act as you think your god acted. If you are devoted enough, or convinced enough that you will lose because that was what your god did, well, you lose. would call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". And if at the end of the day, you don't lose, you will find some explanation ... wasn't really Zorak Zoran in front of you, or you were not on the hill of gold but somewhere else where Yelmalio won, or ... or maybe, you lose your devotion

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14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

now when you're heroquesting you act as you think your god acted. If you are devoted enough, or convinced enough that you will lose because that was what your god did, well, you lose. would call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". 

I think that makes sense (de-augment your attack roll with Devotion(Yelmalio), maybe?), but this being RQ, the dice might not cooperate. 🙂 

Also, I think it's obvious that a ZZ quester can lose this fight, but at least in the archetypical situation where everyone involved is a heroquester, by definition this means the Yelmalio quester won that one (for a value of "won")...

Perhaps one method here would be to fight with scrupulous overdone honor, well aware that ZZ will only take advantage of that?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One paradox I always wonder about is this - if you’re questing the Hill of Gold as Yelmalio, you’re supposed to lose against Zorak Zoran, but you’re also supposed to give it your best (it’s not as if Yelmalio didn’t try to win, and intentionally losing doesn’t strike me as right). But giving it your best means that you could potentially win, which is not what’s supposed to happen.

How does this work out? Is it that if you go into it really trying your damndest to win, you’re displaying an incorrect mindset? That you can only win by spending spiritual-magical resources here that you shouldn’t spend? Or is it just something that sometimes happens - you do everything you should be doing, but sometimes things just don’t work out the way they should anyway?

It works like in Return of the Jedi, though more broken up. You throw away your weapons and armor and only then do you fight. Or, symbolically, you reject Zorak Zoran and what he represents. 

Now in actual play or personal experience, this probably looks different- you might "defeat" Zorak Zoran by giving up your heat, or you both beat each other beyond the point of moving around, and you crawl to the top of the hill, only to see the horde of critters ascending after you... but the main factor here is that you toss away, give up, or cede protection and weapons and even the signs of life rather than become like Orlanth, or like Inora, or like Zorak Zoran, and it is only then that you move into the domain of Arroin and High King Elf, who die and return. 

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 "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think that makes sense (de-augment your attack roll with Devotion(Yelmalio), maybe?), but this being RQ, the dice might not cooperate. 🙂 

Also, I think it's obvious that a ZZ quester can lose this fight, but at least in the archetypical situation where everyone involved is a heroquester, by definition this means the Yelmalio quester won that one (for a value of "won")...

Perhaps one method here would be to fight with scrupulous overdone honor, well aware that ZZ will only take advantage of that?

will answer when the heroquest rules will be provided 😛

 

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3 hours ago, Eff said:

you might "defeat" Zorak Zoran by giving up your heat, or you both beat each other beyond the point of moving around, and you crawl to the top of the hill, only to see the horde of critters ascending after you... but the main factor here is that you toss away, give up, or cede protection and weapons and even the signs of life

Also useful to think that "giving up" your Fire does not necessarily mean that you either 1) politely handed it over to make ZZ go away; or 2) that ZZ ripped it out of Yelmalio's eye/heart/whatever.  It can equally be: Yelmalio must keep ZZ at bay so he can complete Task X (recovering the Torch of Truth, sending a Meditative Message to Dayzatar, freeing the bound sacrifice, summoning the Starbringer, etc.) - he has a weapon at hand, he can set the ground/land around on Fire (release his inner Oakfed) and keep ZZ back.  This has a nice mythic link to ZZ getting burned on seeing Yelm.  Eventually though the Fire runs out of Fuel and ZZ can seize the embers/Fire for himself.  But Yelmalio is able to complete that task.

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