Humakti and Bows

[Andrew M]

Looking for opinions about applying Humakti gifts to weapons other than swords. In particular one of my players is likely to want to use a Bow a lot and it would make sense for her to try and apply gifts to that bow. What is the opinion about applying the double damage after armour to a bow .

I think that it can be applied to any weapon but with the bow the question is should the gift actually need to be applied to the arrow , making it useless or is it mystically appropriate if applied to the Bow

[Joerg]

While there is no reason for a Humakti not to be proficient with a bow, there is no reason for the Sword God to provide special magic for that weapon. Yelmalio offers archery gifts, though not weapon specific.

Special damage after penetrating armor would need to be on the arrows, and taking a gift on an ephemeral item like that seems to be weird, even if it is that one special arrow.

 

[David Scott]

Just apply the gift to the bow that applies to arrows fired by the bow (any type). The gift table makes no differentiation between weapon types. In the grand scheme, it's a weapon damage roll whether delivered by a sword or an arrow. The gift is effectively a damage blessing.

Some might argue that missile weapons aren't covered by cult skills, but for example, adventurers from the impala tribe could easily be humakti light cavalry and have the gift on their bows. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by David Scott

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Remind the player that one of the three geases could well be 

68-71  Use no non-cult weapons.

 

[Humakt]

6 hours ago, Andrew M said:

Looking for opinions about applying Humakti gifts to weapons other than swords. In particular one of my players is likely to want to use a Bow a lot and it would make sense for her to try and apply gifts to that bow. What is the opinion about applying the double damage after armour to a bow .

I think that it can be applied to any weapon but with the bow the question is should the gift actually need to be applied to the arrow , making it useless or is it mystically appropriate if applied to the Bow

This question only deserves a Sever spirit as an answer 😉

[whitelaughter]

21 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Remind the player that one of the three geases could well be 

68-71  Use no non-cult weapons.

 

Yes, but also remind them that this lets them choose a new gift. If the character can boost a weapon, but doesn't have an iron weapon, it makes sense to boost a non-cult weapon so that you can upgrade to iron later in your career.

[g33k]

I fall into Jeorg's camp here, I think:  Humakt doesn't seem the god who would bless any weapon whatsoever.

Death is a sword.

(Archery isn't a prohibited skill, however, and there are many enchantments that can be had, to boost the bow!)

Edited November 16, 2022 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

as a gm in a standard situation (aka in  a community where swords are available) I would accept if the pc fails a devotion roll (so of course -10 mini in devotion passion) because as @g33k and @Joerg said death is primary sword.

but ZZ get the death and use maul, and other death providers use other weapons than swords. so I would let the Death bless the weapon. However, if in addition to this weird action, the pc is a bad humakti (not full honor, etc...) for sure the god will one day show him the true nature of a god (support, bless, curse and ignore)

 

And what about the cult ? will the swords of humakt consider the pc as a good initiate ? will the other initiates respect him/her ?

no : -10% loyalty temple (or if like me, you don't consider passion as bijection loyalty the temple ==> the pc -10%)

 

[g33k]

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

...

but ZZ get the death and use maul, and other death providers use other weapons than swords ...

Yes, other gods get the Death rune.
But Humakt is Death.
And Death is a sword.

[Andrew M]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

As a note It is incredibly unlikely Humakt will screw a player over and make them unnable to use a weapon they have fitted into background , I am not that sort of GM.

The character has already blessed their sword via a gift this is a secondary weapon

The arguements here mirrorred my opinion split but after a discussion 2 of my players (not the Humakti) expressed their opinion that this should be allowed so I will probably allow for this campaign

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Yes, other gods get the Death rune.
But Humakt is Death.
And Death is a sword.

Humakt is Death 100% agreed

 

Death is a sword... not for me : Sword is Death Yes true, 100%

Sword is the rune of death yes 100% agreed,

sword is a humakt cult weapon yes for sure.

 

But is sword the only "media" of death, no. Death is multi form. Humakt is carried and spread by Humakt but Humakt is carried and spread by other gods, with other weapons.

So my answer is not binary sword white, not sword black, but sword white, not sword grey

[Andrew M]

The Hero Wars sourcebook 'The Storm Tribe ' had the subcult of Hu the sword the dominant subcult of Humakt but also Kargan the Warrior whose followers 'roam the world seeking unnusual weapons and fighting styles' so there is support for Humakti using none sword weapons.

The clan the characters come from specifically honours the Star Captain who protected them in the Great Darkness, who presumably was an archer so there is a cultural and practical reason for using both bow and sword

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Andrew M said:

The Hero Wars sourcebook 'The Storm Tribe ' had the subcult of Hu the sword the dominant subcult of Humakt but also Kargan the Warrior whose followers 'roam the world seeking unnusual weapons and fighting styles' so there is support for Humakti using none sword weapons.
...

But being free to use a weapon is very different from the God giving his own unique powers into it.

100% agree that Humakti may use other weapons!  And I think it makes very good sense that they do so.

I think it makes rather less sense that Humakt would give the special Cult blessings to other weapons; and I think specific other-Rune weapons (as Fire/Sky is for bow (or Axe for Earth, etc)) are even more unlikely.

But, as always:  YGMV

 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew M said:

...

The clan the characters come from specifically honours the Star Captain who protected them in the Great Darkness, who presumably was an archer so there is a cultural and practical reason for using both bow and sword

In this case, I'd look rather to a dual-Cult affiliation, to both Humakt and to the Star Captain; and take the respective magic and blessings of each, for their respective weapons.

I honestly don't see why Humakt would or should bless the weapons wielded in honor of the Star Captain.

[Andrew M]

Kargan the warrior of course could notably apply his magic to any mellee weapon.

The runic association of weapons is to the elemental runes, which Humakt has specifically seperated himself from, while I agree the sword is also associated with death there is no formal link to the death rune. Other cults with death runes specifically do not use swords.  I would find a Humakti who did not have a sword very odd, although the story behind it could be a good one

Within the cult description it is 'bless specific weapon' not bless specific cult weapon as opposed to the Gift of +10% skill with a cult weapon

[Soccercalle]

Humakt helping with other weapons than swords sounds like Orlanth giving magic based on other elements than air. An Humakti initiate can of course use other weapons. But I can't see why Humakt would help them with that.  A more generic war god could have magic for all kinds of weapons, but Humakt is the sword god.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Andrew M said:

The Hero Wars sourcebook 'The Storm Tribe ' had the subcult of Hu the sword the dominant subcult of Humakt but also Kargan the Warrior whose followers 'roam the world seeking unnusual weapons and fighting styles' so there is support for Humakti using none sword weapons.

You can use Kargan in your glorantha if you want to but the Storm Tribe is no longer canonical for a host of reasons.  

[hipsterinspace]

I think you have to consider MGF, and to me it's MGF to have it on the bow and not the arrow. As a GM I have not placed restrictions on Humakti weapon choice because Humakt is death and death takes many forms. While that form is a sword mythically and it's the most important cultic weapon, to exclude other means is arbitrarily narrow and silly to me, it's not MGF. I'd say there's a reason Humakti get "any other weapon attack" as one of their 90% skill choices to qualify for becoming a Sword of Humakt in the core rules, and I have a had a Humakti with a gift on a bow in my game.

Edited November 16, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

think you have to consider MGF, and to me it's MGF to have it on the bow and not the arrow.

Depends.  If I am playing a character from an actual archery cult, it's not fun that the Humakti character not only outshines me in melee, as is to be expected, they also outshine me in my specialty.

It would be MGF if the Humakti could talk with snakes, fly, resurrect people, and speak many languages.  Doesn't make it right...

[hipsterinspace]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Depends.  If I am playing a character from an actual archery cult, it's not fun that the Humakti character not only outshines me in melee, as is to be expected, they also outshine me in my specialty.

It would be MGF if the Humakti could talk with snakes, fly, resurrect people, and speak many languages.  Doesn't make it right...

You're intentionally using what I said in bad faith: when it comes to the rules as written I try to apply the wording in a way that is fun and doesn't punish my players for doing something that is interesting and that they would like to do. I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't a cult that is solely about archery, those cults with archery aspects are Solar cults which have the additional utility that comes with having a host of other attendant celestial magics. Humakt is THE killer, he is incarnated death in its manifold forms and that's basically it. Sure, it isn't "balanced", but you have a bunch of examples of the writers of the game stating outright that it isn't written around balance, if you want to play a human blender you play a Humakti, the other cults are better at many other things and fill different social and mythic roles.

[Andrew M]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Depends.  If I am playing a character from an actual archery cult, it's not fun that the Humakti character not only outshines me in melee, as is to be expected, they also outshine me in my specialty.

It would be MGF if the Humakti could talk with snakes, fly, resurrect people, and speak many languages.  Doesn't make it right...

The decision on odd things always has to be made with the particular game in mind. None of the other pc's is an archery specialist. However having said this I can only think of 3 Archery specialist cults, Yelorna, Aldrya and Pole Star all 3 of them would remain better archers based on their available rune magic. (You could argue Yelmalio is an archery cult and indeed they would be worse than this character but they are bad at pretty much everything and those of my players who have encountered them in other games mock them)

Having been gaming for nearly 40 years I am aware of the issues of protecting the niche each character has in the party, and try to make sure that does not happen.

As to what is canon , I don't particulary care, there is a lot of good material in the various Hero wars supplements and I use it as and when it seems suitable. Now if an RQG product contradicts an earlier piece of material which I have not already used in my game comes out I will go with that unless the other material is more fun  I am not using the Kargan subcult for this pc as it is unneccesarry complication for the game but it may turn up in the future if it fits the game.

Balance is a secondary concern to if it fits my feel for the campaign world and seems appropriate, I consider niche protection more important, I am certainly not going to worry that the Ernaldan Shaman is much better at spirit combat than anyone else or in pure HTH combat skill once the Humakti starts casting Sword trance no one can match them or the flying Orlanthi

[Rodney Dangerduck]

34 minutes ago, Andrew M said:

Having been gaming for nearly 40 years I am aware of the issues of protecting the niche each character has in the party, and try to make sure that does not happen.

Good, we are in complete agreement.  If the archery add won't step on anybody else's toes, it's o.k. and reasonable.  I might not do it on "mythic" grounds, but it is reasonable.

The fact that your players outright mock Yelmalio cultists is a sad (and true) reflection on that cult's decline into irrelevance.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Andrew M said:

The clan the characters come from specifically honours the Star Captain who protected them in the Great Darkness, who presumably was an archer so there is a cultural and practical reason for using both bow and sword

In that case, why make the bow about Humakt, and not about the Star Captain founder?

[Soccercalle]

16 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

You're intentionally using what I said in bad faith: when it comes to the rules as written I try to apply the wording in a way that is fun and doesn't punish my players for doing something that is interesting and that they would like to do. I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't a cult that is solely about archery, those cults with archery aspects are Solar cults which have the additional utility that comes with having a host of other attendant celestial magics. Humakt is THE killer, he is incarnated death in its manifold forms and that's basically it. Sure, it isn't "balanced", but you have a bunch of examples of the writers of the game stating outright that it isn't written around balance, if you want to play a human blender you play a Humakti, the other cults are better at many other things and fill different social and mythic roles.

If you really wanted a Humakti to use gifts or magic for bow (or any other weapon) you could combine YGWV and MGF and create of a myth when Humakt had lost his sword and needed to use another weapon. Perhaps a bow if the enemy was flying or far away. You could then create a subcult called something like "Humakt the archer" and make up a good story of why the PC is am member of that one. Maybe "Humakt the archer" did something that was important for your clan or so. 

If you use a subcult you dont have to change the majority of Humakti but just the ones in your subcult. That may only be worshipped in a specific area or clan.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Soccercalle

[svensson]

OK first off, YGMV and MGF. If Bow-Humakti make you happy, have at it.

At my table, I would give that a great big 'nope'. Here's why:

- Humakt's very symbol is the sword Death... not only the Rune, not only the life condition, but the actual physical item

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

- One of Humakt's geases [geasa] is 'Use no non-cult weapons'

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

- Lastly, Humakt's 'spirit of reprisal' in previous editions was the Sword Curse: break faith with Humakt and no sword will ever serve you again. You lose your grip on them and they fall to the ground or even shatter in your hand... yes, even sword with bound intelligent spirits in them. I think this is one of the best religious oath-breaker penalties in any game ever and have chosen to keep it in my game.

Now, again, YOUR Glorantha is absolutely gonna be different from mine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But this is how it works in mine.

[Soccercalle]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

OK first off, YGMV and MGF. If Bow-Humakti make you happy, have at it.

At my table, I would give that a great big 'nope'. Here's why:

- Humakt's very symbol is the sword Death... not only the Rune, not only the life condition, but the actual physical item

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

- One of Humakt's geases [geasa] is 'Use no non-cult weapons'

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

- Lastly, Humakt's 'spirit of reprisal' in previous editions was the Sword Curse: break faith with Humakt and no sword will ever serve you again. You lose your grip on them and they fall to the ground or even shatter in your hand... yes, even sword with bound intelligent spirits in them. I think this is one of the best religious oath-breaker penalties in any game ever and have chosen to keep it in my game.

Now, again, YOUR Glorantha is absolutely gonna be different from mine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But this is how it works in mine.

Does the sword curse applies to Humakti that converts to Yanafal Tarnils and starts using scimitars (a type of sword)? Isn't Humakt converting to YT quite "common" in the canons. 

I have nothing against the sword curse but would probably only have it affect "straight" swords. (That can further explain why YT uses scimitars).