Real-world Inspirations

[mfbrandi]

Obviously, I don’t want to stir up sectarian or communal violence, nor do I want to have a dig at the Jains and Buddhists. It is just that maybe we do people a disservice by making them out to be saints. Demonisation is not the only thing we have to watch out for. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit. Normal service resumes?

[svensson]

And getting back to the point of the thread...

Anybody seeing Sun County in these?

A desert fortress town, CGI by Stephen Dove

Edited March 28, 2023 by svensson

[Qizilbashwoman]

By the way, if anyone is interested in the details of incantation bowls, this lecture is amazing:

 

[Bren]

20 hours ago, svensson said:

Anybody seeing Sun County in these?

Yes, all the domes. 

[svensson]

An amazing image came across my feed today

Suytun Cenote, near Vallalodid, Yucatan, Mexico

Anybody seeing an Uz or Water cult ceremony here?

 

 

[Bren]

Although the colors are different, it reminds me of parts of Rainbow Mound.

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Anybody seeing an Uz or Water cult ceremony here?

Why either or? Use sea trolls.

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

An amazing image came across my feed today

Suytun Cenote, near Vallalodid, Yucatan, Mexico

Anybody seeing an Uz or Water cult ceremony here?

 

 

That is pretty light to be desirable for Uz.  Looks like it is engineered to put sunlight on the center platform..  Do you have a concept for why the Uz would have a ceremony there?  Night only, originally to have been in the light of the Blue Moon?

[svensson]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That is pretty light to be desirable for Uz.  Looks like it is engineered to put sunlight on the center platform..  Do you have a concept for why the Uz would have a ceremony there?  Night only, originally to have been in the light of the Blue Moon?

A cenote [sen-oh-teh] is a terrain feature of Central America where the local limestone soaks up all available water. Because of this, there are no streams in the area because the water is collected in underground reservoirs. What often happens is the roof of a close-the-surface cenote is worn thin by time and erosion and will collapse into the cave underneath, creating an open well.

That is why you have that lighting effect.

Edited March 30, 2023 by svensson

[Joerg]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:08 AM, Bren said:

On 3/28/2023 at 3:30 AM, svensson said:

Anybody seeing Sun County in these?

Yes, all the domes. 

Actually, that's what makes me think of somewhere not Sun County, with many lesser celestial entities worshiped. In a Sun Dome county, I would not expect mundane buildings to imitate the sacred architecture. How many of us live in church-like houses?

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

An amazing image came across my feed today

Suytun Cenote, near Vallalodid, Yucatan, Mexico

Anybody seeing an Uz or Water cult ceremony here?

 

 

Possibly a temple to the Mistress of the Tides somewhere in Maslo. It would be fun to have secret Ludoch habitats under one of the jungles there.

[svensson]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually, that's what makes me think of somewhere not Sun County, with many lesser celestial entities worshiped. In a Sun Dome county, I would not expect mundane buildings to imitate the sacred architecture. How many of us live in church-like houses?

The domes in desert architecture are there to collect heat and vent it upwards. It helps keep the ground floor cooler. Because of that, I could see domed roofs in Sun County in the desert. In a more verdant, temperate climate like Dragon Pass, maybe not.

This is something I hope is addressed in Glorantha's future... how life is lived near Sun Dome Temples NOT in Prax. I'd like to see an article or Jonstown supplement detailing the Sun County neighboring the Lismelders at the edge of Sartar.

EDIT: Started a topic on the Sun County outside of Prax thing.

Edited March 30, 2023 by svensson

[Manunancy]

21 hours ago, svensson said:

The domes in desert architecture are there to collect heat and vent it upwards. It helps keep the ground floor cooler. Because of that, I could see domed roofs in Sun County in the desert. In a more verdant, temperate climate like Dragon Pass, maybe not.

domes and vaults are also a good way to get a rof that doesn"t use wood (beyond reusable scaffolding), that's nother desirable feature in a desert.

 

[DrGoth]

Not an inspiration, more information.  Some very interesting info on Ancient warfare:

Krentz, P. (1985). Casualties in hoplite battles. Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies, 26(1), 13-20.

https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/5321/5325

TLDR:  on average, winners of ancient battles suffered 5% deaths, losers suffered 14% deaths

[Bren]

Thanks for sharing that, I'll give it a read. Casualties for the victors is about what I would have guessed. Casualties for the losers seem low unless there was either little or no pursuit by cavalry or light infantry or else virtually the entire phalanx surrendered en mass.

[DrGoth]

13 hours ago, Bren said:

Thanks for sharing that, I'll give it a read. Casualties for the victors is about what I would have guessed. Casualties for the losers seem low unless there was either little or no pursuit by cavalry or light infantry or else virtually the entire phalanx surrendered en mass.

When you look at the paper the losses varied wildly from battle to battle. Which is no real surprise. I think we've been conditioned to think defeat in such battles = anihilation.  The research says it didn't.  I trhink what you might have is armies disintegrating as units dissolved, but the individuals getting away.

[Squaredeal Sten]

So considering that "wild variation" in the RW historical record, the specific Gloranthan battle's 30% loss does not seem unreasonable.  There was an effective pursuit, and/ or the units driven back into the river really did drown, and/ or the magic used increased casualties.

As an example of that last point, in my ongoing Six Seasons based campaign the Adventurers 

Spoiler

Used a weapon of mass destruction previously obtained from Cragspider, subjecting thousands of Lunar soldiers to attacks by spirits.  Many lost and were possessed.  Presumably those did not come home again.  There are many possibilities for  what happens with an Uz spirit  in a human body but it seems likely that  some wandered in the wild and died that way while others tried to join the Uz and were either accepted or eaten.  

 

[Bren]

I had a chance to read the article. I had to look at his table twice to figure out how he calculated his ratios, but it is interesting how low the casualties were for the losers. The author identifies a lack of effective pursuit by the Greeks, as a major factor (perhaps the major factor) in the low casualties for the loser compared to many other battles.

Quote

On the other hand, the Greeks (as Thucydides says specifically of the Lacedaemonians) did not usually pursue far once a battle was decided. This reluctance to go too far  in killing enemy soldiers once their line had broken stemmed as much from the fear of a reversal if the troops dispersed as from a gentlemanly hesitation to kill fellow Greeks; but it did mean that the losers' losses, while twice or three times as heavy as those of the winners, were rarely more than a fifth of their engaged forces. [Emphasis added.]

I wonder it this might be a good model for typical Orlanthi warfare. I can see where chasing down and killing fleeing enemies might conflict with Honor.

[Shiningbrow]

It's also a lot more profitable to take prisoners and ransom them.

Also, it needs to be remembered that most 'soldiers' were actually just farmers who were roped into going on a raid (often every summer). So were the enemy. So, not wanting to kill someone who just wants to go home to the wife and kids makes a lot of sense. (as well as the strong desire just to not kill another human being who is up close and personal, and likely to be just as hesitant/scared)

[DrGoth]

18 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So considering that "wild variation" in the RW historical record, the specific Gloranthan battle's 30% loss does not seem unreasonable.  There was an effective pursuit, and/ or the units driven back into the river really did drown, and/ or the magic used increased casualties.

As an example of that last point, in my ongoing Six Seasons based campaign the Adventurers 

  Hide contents

Used a weapon of mass destruction previously obtained from Cragspider, subjecting thousands of Lunar soldiers to attacks by spirits.  Many lost and were possessed.  Presumably those did not come home again.  There are many possibilities for  what happens with an Uz spirit  in a human body but it seems likely that  some wandered in the wild and died that way while others tried to join the Uz and were either accepted or eaten.  

 

Variation, yes,. but the highest victor loss reported in that paper was 10% deaths and the highest loser death percentage was 25%.  So a 30% for the victors feels a little unlikely.

[SDLeary]

Also, everyone needs to remember that these are death numbers. Casualties are often several times higher. Your buddies lying in the mud, screaming in pain is often much more a motivator than those that are silent.

SDLeary

[Kloster]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:53 AM, DrGoth said:

Variation, yes,. but the highest victor loss reported in that paper was 10% deaths and the highest loser death percentage was 25%.  So a 30% for the victors feels a little unlikely.

As far as I remember, Roman losses vs Hannibal in Cannae or Lake Trasimene were much higher. According to Livy, Roman losses in Cannae were around 50 000 on around 80 000, not counting alae sociorum. This is over 50% death and around 80% losses. Those 50 000 death represent also rougly 5% of the adult male roman population. I know Rome is iron age and not bronze age, but I don't think the figures would have been very different with bronze weapons and armors.

[Bren]

The Punic Wars were a different style of combat than most battles in Classical Greece. And those two battles are exceptions from the vast majority of battles in history. Cannae is highly unusual. It was one of the greatest tactical defeats in history. The Roman army was completely enveloped. Virtually none of the Romans could retreat.

Lake Trasimene, while not as bad, had the Roman army completely surprised while strung out along their line of march. The army never had no command and control and never had a chance to form up. Many groups were destroyed piece meal.

[Kloster]

All of what you say is correct, and I took a bit too extreme examples.

Let's take another example: Battle of Cynoscephales. For the Macedonians, around 8 000 death for 22 000 men (around 35% death) and for the Romans 1000 death on 30 000 (around 3%). In Pydna, Macedonian army had over 20 000 death on an army of 43 000 (again around 35%-40% death), and the Roman one supposedly 100 death (seems far too low) on 35 000.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Bren]

Several points:

1. In the article the author checked his numbers against battles with lists of the fallen, which were done by name. That seems like a very accurate method of counting. Do we have such accurate lists for Rome's battles? I believe there is pretty good evidence that Caesar, for example, overestimated enemy casualties in his Commentaries. So potentially the loser's casualties are overestimated.
2. My impression is that Classical Greek city states had a level of formality and, I guess civility is the word, in most or many of their battles. Once the battle was over, a truce was declared so that each side can collect and bury their dead. I don't recall the Roman's doing that. Their wars seemed to follow more of a total war model. If the Spartans had conducted war in the Roman fashion, there would have been no Athens or Athenians at the end of the Peloponnesian War. Historically, Carthage didn't survive the Punic Wars. If war is conducted differently, casualty ratios could easily change.
3. My impression lately, is that Alexander is kind-of, sort-of a model for Argrath. If we accept that, then the wars of Alexander (and probably his father Philip) may provide a better model. I don't know what those casualty ratios would look like. They may not be too accurate as I've seen some extremely high numbers for the Persians vs. Alexander. (Not as bad as the numbers Herodotus gives us, but still suspiciously high. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the losses for the losing side would be higher than for Classical Greek battles. 
4. Obviously, everyone is free to choose the model they find most convincing or enjoyable. What I like about the lower casualty figures is that I think players would find lower losses on their side more fun. Low casualty ratios make it reasonable that player characters are unlikely to be killed in battle by one bad die roll. In addition, for campaigns where multiple battles are a significant feature such as player led war bands or companies, clan vs. clan conflict, or where a player character has the roll of warband leader, chieftain, or rex, having lower troop casualties is probably more fun than the players losing 20% or more of their troops or clan fighters every time a battle occurs. And from he GM perspective, I don't want to have to create or stat up new clans, companies, or regiments to oppose the players. And, in the same way that lower ratios justify low probability of PC/protagonist death, they also justify low probability of antagonist death.

 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Bren said:

In the article the author checked his numbers against battles with lists of the fallen, which were done by name. That seems like a very accurate method of counting. Do we have such accurate lists for Rome's battles? I believe there is pretty good evidence that Caesar, for example, overestimated enemy casualties in his Commentaries. So potentially the loser's casualties are overestimated.

For Roman losses, the main sources are historians (Livy, for example), but also the annual census, and the archives of the legions, including pay. But Caesar's Commentaries are a masterpiece of propaganda, glorifying the author, not an accurate description.

1 hour ago, Bren said:

My impression is that Classical Greek city states had a level of formality and, I guess civility is the word, in most or many of their battles. Once the battle was over, a truce was declared so that each side can collect and bury their dead. I don't recall the Roman's doing that. Their wars seemed to follow more of a total war model. If the Spartans had conducted war in the Roman fashion, there would have been no Athens or Athenians at the end of the Peloponnesian War. Historically, Carthage didn't survive the Punic Wars. If war is conducted differently, casualty ratios could easily change.

Romans had similar traditions, but their view of the end of the battle was not the same.