I Think I'm Going to Make Up My Own Elmal Cult

[Soccercalle]

YGWV. I think that you could have Elmal as a separate cult worshipping the same god (Yelmalio). Yelm is worshipped in different ways in the Grazelands and among Dara Happan aristocracy. Waha and Orlanth is also worshipped differently in different parts of the world. And I guess that different myths are more or less common in different areas. Most gods also have different names in different regions. The Yelmalio cult is quite civilised. Its not strange if barbarian tribes worship him in different ways. 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

perhaps as a banked hearthfire that doesn't produce much light but warms all those near.

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

goodness, protect the innocents, possibly even celibacy … teased by Stormbull and even Humakti … but still cool compared to the misogynistic xenophobics that are the Yelmalians.

9 hours ago, radmonger said:

It seems Yelmalio is what you get when you worship Lightfore as the male gender role model

To me, all these suggest that Mahome has dressed herself in armour and risen from the grate to smite the foe. I don’t say that this is necessarily the way you should go, but it does fit with the interpretation of Gustbran as a manifestation of Mahome rather than a bloke who hides in her petticoats. (Because I cannot leave well enough alone, I might make all the Lowfires manifestations of Mahome: you think I am a mere hearthfire, but Oakfed is just one of my guises — I am all the fires that burn upon the surface of the earth.)

Elmal as Lowfire gives us “esteemed by primitives, valued by barbarians, despised by sun and sky worshippers, and revered as companions by commoners.” (WoD)

You don’t put a star on top of a mountain but a beacon fire.

It makes a kind of sense (a twisted dream logic): when the Sun has been slain, you get light and heat by burning stuff — if you relied on cold lights in the sky, you’d freeze to death. One way of looking at this would be that Orlanth left the daughter of Ernalda and Lodril in charge when he went off questing — the mature thing to do.

Perhaps also this would be some kind of reply to making Vinga into Orlanth in a dress, but I wouldn’t lean into the disguise/deceit aspect of it: from Mahome’s point of view, she has just donned the garb for the job, and if others see a man, that is their foolishness. The Truth rune is just a Man rune doing a handstand, seeing a man in Elmal is the truth stood on its head, and the True Fire is the Hearth not the Sun.

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:27 AM, svensson said:

With that in mind, I don't see the Loyal Thane as the grizzled NCO trying to school his new officer. 

Yeah, Elmal is clearly the XO, not the NCO - the trusted second-in-command. This also works well with the horse thing - Elmal leads the away party on horseback.

[svensson]

@mfbrandi

About your comment regarding 'twisted dream magic'...

What is the Godtime and Heroquesting if not 'twisted dream magic'? There is more than one deity in Glorantha that doesn't fit the God Learner models but does fill a niche in a pantheon. From what I've read each pantheon's myth cycles contain their own internal logic that oftentimes is contradictory to other sources. There is a lot of relativism and 'yeah, but' that goes on in Gloranthan theology and no source cleans all of it up... but the believers within the cults consider it all true and valid despite the inconsistencies.

[svensson]

From the OP:

I VERY much appreciate the thoughts and brainstorming you've all contributed here. Every comment has cause me a moment or three of thought and reflection. I really didn't think there'd be this much interest, and I feel complimented and supported in the project. Thank you.

What would be helpful is if some of you could suggest Rune and Spirit magic spells that you think would be available to the cult along with your logic as to why the cult would include such a spell. The cult will teach between 3 and 5 Spirit spells and one or two Rune spells.

I do not intend to do a full multi-page write up with a full mythological background and so on. My goal is to offer the one-page summary of what I think Elmal might look like as a Storm oriented hearth-guard deity. I believe I'll have my thoughts in order this week and be able to get it to you for your, um, 'critique' 😉 by the end of the week.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Thanks to share your ideas !
 

In fact the questions are :

do you want a loyal thane god ?

do you want an horseman god ?

do you want a fire god ?

 

For the horseman aspect, any hyalor subcult in any war god would propose something interesting, but in fact, do we need any rune spell dedicated to horse to be a horseman ? I don't think so
 

As a loyal thane, I would consider Humakt and Orlanth as it. Honour is Orlanth too. And Orlanth as so many personalities that you may find one as the loyal protector

 I would not create an elmal cult (= a fire dissident) in the storm pantheon as a loyal thane

Just because it was and now it was proven that Elmal was Yelmalio. However if I "had" I would give them Sunspear as only offensive rune spell (so the opposite of you 🙂 ) and some geas to never learn any offensive air spell (so no thunderbolt, no lightning) even if they are Orlanth or other initiates too (Just to see the "dichotomy")

 

However

If I wanted some "foreign" god as loyal protector in Orlanth's tribe, as Elmal is now Yelmalio, I would call him Rigsdal (or a star captain). Weird magic, weird values but the one who stops any intruder, organize the protection of the boundaries.

Without the cults book (if there is something about Rigsdal, I don't know), I would just propose the part of the warrior way, maybe.. if there is, the supply activities, but not the strategist  (that's Humakt)

 

 

[radmonger]

In 16xx, Boldhome was facing an epidemic of disorder and crime, driven by a ever-growing transient population of mercenaries, refugees and other consequences of Argrath's wars. The traditional Sartarite system whereby all adult citizens were expected to serve in defending the city was breaking down when the threat was not chaos or enemies at the gates, but drunken brawls and thievery. Many citizens resorted to paying someone  else to take their place on the night guard, Some of those who took that silver were men of low repute, and so contributed to the problem as much as solved it. 

After an unfortunate incident involving a visiting initiate of Babeestor Gor, the City Rex petitioned Argrath. He responded by dispatching one of his companions to deal with the issue. Their decision was to refound the ancient cult of Elmal as, in effect, the night watchmen's guild. Only qualified Elmal initiates would guard the streets at night, and all were required to swear oaths of loyalty and honesty.

The resulting force were known as the bullies, after Argrath. The cult of Elmal the night watchmen teaches Lantern, Catseye and two new spells discovered by creative heroquesting:

 

Testify,

1 point

self, temporal

The caster glows with a distinctive light. While under the effect, they may speak only the truth of events they have personally witnessed. They never forget details, or confuse speculation with reality. if what the caster saw was an illusion or trick, that is not automatically known, but may be  determined by careful questioning of the details.

 Endure Cold 

2 points

ritual, self, permanent, one use

The caster gains 2 points of protection against cold exposure, as per the rules for cold-weather clothing on p161 of RQ:G.

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by radmonger

[Akhôrahil]

I'm not sure why you want so very few Rune spells - even small cults have a good deal more than that! That said:

* Cult *

Summon Small Fire Elemental, Cloud Clear, Sunbright, Sunripen. I would also create a Rune Magic spell for endurance/survival/steadfastness, the way I think Yelmalio ought to have as well.

* Associated Cults *

Orlanth provides: Shield 

Redalda provides: Speak With Horse

Ernalda (technically Esrola, but the rules don't tend to break her out): provides Bless Animals

Subcults: Rigsdal (Night Watchman, gain Catseye), Redalda (entrance for women, the way Vinga is for Orlanth)

Edited April 10, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

if some of you could suggest Rune and Spirit magic spells … along with your logic as to why the cult would include such a spell … My goal is to offer the one-page summary of what I think Elmal might look like as a Storm oriented hearth-guard deity.

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

The cult of Elmal the night watchman

I guess I would look at the motivation for having an Elmal Redux. As I see it, Fire/Sky deities come at four levels/heights, cold at the top, hot at the bottom:

1. Celestial/Sky: Dayzatar and company (remote)
2. Middle Air: Yelm (rivals)
3. Surface/Grounded: Lowfires (potential allies)
4. Underground: Lodril and company (disorderly, untrustworthy)

If I have it right, the old HW conception of Elmal was to be the honest-to-god sun (not a nightlight) but subordinate to Orlanth. Rigsdal then plays the Yelmalio rôle, and Rigsdal is to Elmal as Elmal is to Orlanth (in terms of loyalty and chain of command). However, if Elmal is the sun, what is going on with the Lightbringer quest? If the Evil Emperor is not the sun, why does Orlanth have to bring him back? Good riddance, right? And clearly Orlanth didn’t kill Elmal and then leave Elmal in charge while he went off to bring back Elmal. All a bit of a mess. (Yes, I know, “Yelm disintegrates,” but still …) In other words, Yelm is part of the Orlanth mythos and pantheon: the Orlanthi already have a sun god, it is just that they hate him. [EDIT: Probably because they are ginger and don’t handle UV well.]

So we have Yelmalio as a little cold sun/star/planet who endures and shines while “daddy sun” Yelm is dead. But in character Yelmalio is more like Dayzatar, a bit chilly and standoffish, a bit too foreign and not-like-us for the Storm Tribe. So if Elmal != the sun, still Elmal = Yelmalio doesn’t work for some people. We should respect that, although personally I worship at the altar of Yelmalio and often visit the antique shop in Brighton that he runs with my uncle (Julian/Hugh Paddick to ZZ’s Sandy/Kenneth Williams — you say Polaris, I say Polari).

I am guessing that a Lodrilish Elmal wouldn’t scratch the itch, either — according to the stereotype, lazy & lustful; intimately mixed with the Earth, which might make the Orlanthi squirm a little; possibly volcanic and not to be relied upon.

But at ground level we find deities partaking of but who serve the tribe, and in some cases are a bit more human and/or domesticated. Not chilly and ascetic like the gods, not rivals for the middle air like Yelm, and not overheated and getting up to unspeakable things “down there” like Lodril. But just right — in the Goldilocks zone. We might even think that unlike stars and volcanoes, their fire relies on to burn, tying them more tightly to the Storm Tribe.

If I am right — and who is to say I am? it hasn’t happened before — there is no point in making Elmal a Rigsdal or a Yelmalio-who-knows-his-place, as we already have Rigsdal for that, weird chilly old Rigsdal. Don’t people yearn for someone warmer, more approachable? (Not me, obviously: I like a god to be untrustworthy and unfathomable; GSOH; must like children … as a snack.)

All this a prelude to:

Spirit magic, indefinite duration, 2 points: keep fire burning — cast on a “domestic” fire (hearth fire, camp fire, funeral pyre, etc. but not a wild fire — not Oakfed), the fire will continue to burn come-what-may as long as the caster is fighting to defend it; if the caster is taken out of the fight or the fight ends, the fire becomes a normal fire once more. (Rationale: as long as Elmal is fighting to defend it, there will be something to defend.)

Rune magic, single use, permanent, 1 point: eternal flame of the fallen — cast on a fire on which keep fire burning has been cast and which is still burning though the kfb caster has been killed defending it (not sacrificed by the eternal flame caster), the fire will keep burning till the universe is extinguished by the Devil; the fire burns in place and at its current size, it is not portable or expandable — although you can stack fuel around it for a temporarily larger fire — and you cannot resurrect (or make undead or spirit of disease) the dead defender. (Rationale: that which a life was given to defend shall endure, along with the good name of its defender. A good place to put a shrine.)

Edited April 10, 2023 by mfbrandi
sunburn

[AlexS]

Thanks @svensson for a much-needed cult-creation initiative, and for kicking off a great discussion. Agree 100% that

On 4/8/2023 at 10:39 AM, svensson said:

in a world like Glorantha you NEED guys like him.

The question is, are 'guys like him' just loyal thanes, or do they fulfil other important roles?

Working on Cultural Traditions as an approach to generating backgrounds for adventurers and NPCs from Esrolia and Sartar, we came to the conclusion that we do indeed need Elmal, but this is not just for the 'loyal thane' bit (which is a Storm Tribe issue, less relevant to Esrolia) but also for reasons of (a) player-friendliness, (b) community function and (c) military function.

For (a), we know from people’s responses to depictions in ‘non-canon’ / ‘non-contemporary’ sources like Six Ages and Valley of Plenty (which is great – I hope we will see it back in the JC eventually) that the Elmali adventurer archetype is intrinsically appealing. This is the hero on horseback, fiery (pun intended) but steadfast, riding the range to ensure that justice is done and the stead is protected.

Sure, Yelmalio has his place, but he is pedestrian in every sense of the word. Standing dauntless in the face of a charging foe is great, but while you’re marching in a file and dragging pikes and heavy shields around you’re not going to be much use for agile scouting or for long-range patrolling along the ridges that mark the boundary between your Tula and that of the neighbouring clan. And as both @svensson and @Qizilbashwoman have pointed out,

On 4/8/2023 at 2:59 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's often a lot of land to cover when you are guarding the territory

So, it’s not just about keeping an option that appeals to players, but also about community and military function. Orlanthi societies may not be horse-centric but they need horses, and while Redalda can help you raise horses, to use them in war you need Elmal (as the Big Deity associated with horsey little gods and culture heroes like Hyalor, Kuschile and Ulanin the Rider). Sartarite and Esrolian military forces need light cavalry because although Orlanthi flying is cool, time-limited Rune Magic is not a practical basis either for scouting or for skirmishing.

In the ‘Tribes of Sartar’ article in Wyrm’s Footnotes #15, Greg actually created the ‘Light Orlanthi’ cultural tradition as one based on herding and hunting, with the bow, sword and spear as cultural weapons. Sure, he insisted that ‘The term Light Orlanthi refers to their weapons and not from any Solar association’ but arguably this is because he decided to use it to categorise the Ducks as well as the evidently horsey (indeed downright Elmali) Dundealos, Balkoth and Aranwyth – or he could simply have had his tongue in his cheek, knowing that ‘any Solar association’ was likely to trigger another outbreak of the Elmal/Yelmalio flame (?) wars.

Either way, Greg the wargamer realised that Sartar needed a skirmisher/light cavalry cultural tradition, and Greg the anthropologist realised that it made sense to associate this with areas where herding predominates over Barntar-plough agriculture as a livelihood strategy.

For our Sartar, we simply decided that the Light Orlanthi Cultural Tradition does indeed have a link with a deity of Light. This doesn't mean a strictly Solar deity in the Yelmic sense, because as @Joerg reminds us, 

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

The identification of Elmal with the Lightfore planet seems to be canon

So, we see the Light Orlanthi as a strongly Elmal-influenced cultural tradition, which predominates (as per Greg’s account in WF15) among the Dundealos, Balkoth and Aranwyth clans who rule the semi-arid rangelands of Southeast Sartar. We think that it also influences the makeup of the Pol-Joni, many of whom were originally Dundealos, and can be found in slightly different forms in other parts of Sartar, among Hyaloring-heritage clans like the Narri and Enhyli of the Runegate area and the Dolutha and Emerald Sword of the Dangerford area. Our work-in-progress quick-reference summary of the cultural tradition is as follows:

Having Elmal as a major deity doesn’t mean that Light Orlanthi clans must have Elmali chiefs. Thanks to the Loyal Thane trope, there’s no reason why widespread Elmal worship can’t coexist with Orlanth Rex clan or tribal leadership – though of course the whole Elmali-refusing-to-recognise-Orlanthi-chieftains’-authority backstory to Tarkalor’s deal with Monrogh provides a cautionary tale about how this isn’t always a given. In The Coming Storm's presentation of the Dolutha and the Emerald Sword, Ian Cooper gives a brilliant description of how Elmali heritage can coexist with Orlanth Rex leadership, as well as the conflicts associated with this, especially post-Monrogh and post-Lunar Invasion.

As I said above, though, Elmal is of interest not only for Sartar (where the Storm Tribe Loyal Thane thing is politically important) but also for Esrolia. Land of 10,000 Goddesses talks about Yelmalio as an invader god (presumably because of the associations with the Daysenerus cult brought by Palangio's invasion in the First Age) and although there are plenty of Yelmalions in Esrolia there aren't any Sun Domes, so in our Esrolia he is more of an elf-friend light-god (cf Halamalao) than a Pelorian-style Sun Domer. Given the explicit pro-Elmal references in the source material, we decided that there should also be Esrolian Houses with an Elmali rather than Yelmalion connection, and that they should identify with the Sun – but we deliberately didn’t say that Elmal was actually the Esrolian Sun God:

In Esrolia the connection with Elmal is also important because of the legacy of Elmalvo, the ancient centre on top of which Belintar built his New Crystal City. In our Esrolia that part of the North March (which borders the Grazelands and Vaantar Sun Dome County) is all about horse-raising and patrolling the borders, which if course sets up all kinds of interesting clashes between Esrolian Elmali and their Yelmalio and Yu-Kargzant worshipping neighbours – not least because the God-King used to force the North March Elmali to contain their impulse to antagonise the Uz and Kitori of Styx Grotto and the Shadow Plateau and instead join the effort to protect them from Sun Domer raiding.

So, in our Glorantha it makes all kinds of sense to have a horsey, loyal, border-patrolling Elmal cult for Esrolia as well as for Sartar. Please consider this one more vote in favour of @svensson giving us an Elmal cult whose role

On 4/8/2023 at 7:15 PM, svensson said:

is to provide Storm with minor access to Spear/Archery/Horse/Fire powers

...but with the addition that whether in the shape of sleeping Ernalda's guardian thane or of the Nochet-defending Noble Brother Nolerianmar, the cult can also provide Earth (aka Esrolian communities) with these powers as well, and can provide players creating Esrolian as well as Sartarite adventurers with an attractive pathway to follow.

Edited April 10, 2023 by AlexS
typos/clarity

[AlexS]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

What would be helpful is if some of you could suggest Rune and Spirit magic spells that you think would be available to the cult along with your logic as to why the cult would include such a spell.

As noted in my previous post, even though we decided that Elmali had to exist in our Esrolia and Sartar, we also decided that there’s no need to go full Sun God with him to ensure that Elmal has his place in these societies.

If we take as our starting-point that Elmal is a Little Sun god associated with Lightfore (which must be the case for the Monrogh story to work, as @Joerg points out), then giving him Fire Rune Magic doesn’t make much sense.

However, if Elmal is less about puritan sacrifice/self-denial than Yelmalio there’s no reason why Elmali should be banned from using spirit magic associated with Fire. Fireblade and Firearrow can go a long way to offsetting the single-combat weakness that bothers a lot of people with Yelmalio.

In terms of warrior experience for adventure creation, when working on Esrolian character generation resources we used the Noble Brother Cult of ‘Nolerianmar the Son of Elmal’ (from Land of 10k Goddesses) as our default background for adventurers with Elmali Light Cavalry experience.

This works pretty well if you use the Yelm the Archer template from the RQG rulebook but limit the Rune Magic to Command Horse, Shield and Sureshot (so no Cloud Clear, Dismiss Fire Elemental (small), Summon Fire Elemental (small) or Sunspear).

As @Akhôrahil has pointed out, you can also complement the core list with Rune Magic from associated deities, such as 

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Redalda provides: Speak With Horse

The Yelm the Archer spirit magic list is Befuddle, Coordination, Detect Enemies, Disruption, Extinguish, Farsee, Firearrow, Fireblade, Heal, Ignite, Light, Lightwall, Mobility, Multimissile, Slow and Speedart, all of which work fine for Elmali if you accept that they have access to Fire as well as Light spirit magic.

The Cult Skills are Bow, Cult Lore (Yelm), Ride (Horse), Speak (Firespeech), Worship (Yelm). If you cut out Firespeech and replace Yelm with Elmal in the Cult Lore and Worship skills then you have a pretty good Elmali skill set, possibly with the addition of Herd for less combat-oriented Elmali.

We had Esrolia (Nolerianmar) in mind, but this might be a workable model for the magic and skill set of a Sartarite Elmal cult too.

Edited April 10, 2023 by AlexS
include quote

[svensson]

So proposed cult nuts and bolts mechanics

[Notes: All spells in RQG, will consider custom spells later; I really prefer the individual Spirits of Reprisal as opposed to RQG's generic spirit attack, so I'll include them here. Still working on the Rune qualifications - no, there won't be gifts and geasa]

Cult Skills: Animal Lore, Herd, Ride Horse, Scan, Bow, Spear

Spirit Magic Spells: Detect Enemies, Firearrow, Fireblade, Ignite, Mobility; Shimmer. Initiates taught Ignite for free. Extinguish is forbidden and must be forgotten

Rune Spells: Cloud Clear, Command [Horse], Sunbrighten, Sureshot, Truespear. All Darkness or fire/light extinguishing magic forbidden.

-- Orlanth Adventurous provides Shield and Wind Words

-- Orlanth Thunderous provides Cloud Call; provides Thunderbolt to High Priest

-- Orlanth Rex provides Detect Honor; provides Command Worshipers to High Priest

-- Chalana Arroy provides Restore Health

Spirit of Reprisal: Those who betray Elmal suffer two curses, all of which are cumulative: 1. Initiates must make a POW v. POW roll every time they wish to use [ride, uses a pack or work animal] a horse or horse-related creature [horse, mule, donkey, zebra, etc.]. Such beasts will automatically shy and resist any attempt to approach them. Should Rune Level become apostate, Fire will consider him an enemy and refuse to serve him. Fires will not light for him using any method, he shall not feel warm by any source other than body heat, he will sunburn very easily, his food shall always be tepid or cold, and any Fire spell directed at him shall do +1d6 damage.

 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Rune Spells: Cloud Clear, Command [Horse], Sunbrighten, Sureshot, Truespear. All Darkness or fire/light extinguishing magic forbidden.

-- Orlanth Adventurous provides Shield and Wind Words

-- Orlanth Thunderous provides Cloud Call; provides Thunderbolt to High Priest

-- Orlanth Rex provides Detect Honor; provides Command Worshipers to High Priest

Orlanth doesn't even provide his fellow lightbringers with that many rune spells!

[scott-martin]

18 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

To me, all these suggest that Mahome has dressed herself in armour and risen from the grate to smite the foe. I don’t say that this is necessarily the way you should go, but it does fit with the interpretation of Gustbran as a manifestation of Mahome rather than a bloke who hides in her petticoats. (Because I cannot leave well enough alone, I might make all the Lowfires manifestations of Mahome: you think I am a mere hearthfire, but Oakfed is just one of my guises — I am all the fires that burn upon the surface of the earth.)

IMG this is exactly how you get Kallyr Starbrow.

But to rescue this from being just another cryptic one-liner, forging a link between the highland "sun" (a beacon lit on the cold mountaintop) and the lowfires is very interesting because for a pyre is required dead plant matter . . . and at least one of the little suns was a friend to the elves in the dark. Did they warm their hands at his heat, even though the fuel was unspeakable?

Edited April 11, 2023 by scott-martin
details

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Orlanth doesn't even provide his fellow lightbringers with that many rune spells!

With a bit of minor rewording, it works perfectly as Orlanth the Rider; the regional variant of Orlanth as worshipped by clans where everyone rides horses every day, and so have light cavalry militia.

• Yelmalio (called Elmal) provides Cloud Clear (or maybe something more useful?)
• Hyalor provides Command [Horse],
• Foundchild provides Sureshot
• [tribal founder] provides Truespear. 

As stated above, this is the  Dundealos, Balkoth and Aranwyth tribes, and presumably also the Pol Joni. It doesn't seem likely to me that a clan could have it's militia, and hence most adult males, follow a foreign deity and still count as Orlanthi. A Grazer-style rulership over a farmer underclass seems much more likely. But maybe that's supposed to be a political dynamic that just hasn't actually exploded yet?

 

 

[svensson]

@metcalph

Alright. I can see your point there.

Now I strongly believe that Orlanth Rex ought to provide Elmal's cult with a spell in gratitude for the Loyal Thane's just and honorable care for Orlanth's people while he was on the Lightbringer's Quest. Orlanth Thunderous is important to the tula for his weather control magic. That also supports that 'concerns at home' sensibility in the cult. So if we wish to discard an Orlanth subcult, logically it would be Orlanth Adventurous.

It seems to me that the solution is to move Shield up to the Rune Spells known and taught by Elmal's cult, and remove the other Orlanth Adventurous magics altogether.

[svensson]

To collective brain trust:

I'm generally satisfied with the Spirit Magic list but do you think that adding Speedart and/or Multimissile would be too much?

[Soccercalle]

34 minutes ago, radmonger said:

With a bit of minor rewording, it works perfectly as Orlanth the Rider; the regional variant of Orlanth as worshipped by clans where everyone rides horses every day, and so have light cavalry militia.

• Yelmalio (called Elmal) provides Cloud Clear (or maybe something more useful?)
• Hyalor provides Command [Horse],
• Foundchild provides Sureshot
• [tribal founder] provides Truespear. 

As stated above, this is the  Dundealos, Balkoth and Aranwyth tribes, and presumably also the Pol Joni. It doesn't seem likely to me that a clan could have it's militia, and hence most adult males, follow a foreign deity and still count as Orlanthi. A Grazer-style rulership over a farmer underclass seems much more likely. But maybe that's supposed to be a political dynamic that just hasn't actually exploded yet?

 

 

Maybe that's the right idea if you want the "loyal thane". Make him  a subculture of Orlanth. The upcoming Lightbringer Cult book will have Odayla and Voriof as sub cults of Orlanth. So a subcult can worship a different deity and not just a different aspect of him  (like Thunderous and Adventurous). But it doesn't "bring back Elmal" if that is the idea. If you want to have an "Elmal cult" that should probably just be a regional way of worshipping Yelmalio. (Like Waha is a god for butchers in Sartar but a god for warriors and khans in Prax).

[metcalph]

25 minutes ago, radmonger said:

With a bit of minor rewording, it works perfectly as Orlanth the Rider; the regional variant of Orlanth as worshipped by clans where everyone rides horses every day, and so have light cavalry militia.

• Yelmalio (called Elmal) provides Cloud Clear (or maybe something more useful?)
• Hyalor provides Command [Horse],
• Foundchild provides Sureshot
• [tribal founder] provides Truespear. 

I don't think Hyalor is an associate of Orlanth while Foundchild definitely is not.  And just postulating a anonymous tribal founder that hands out Truespear is kinda heavyhanded.

25 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

As stated above, this is the  Dundealos, Balkoth and Aranwyth tribes, and presumably also the Pol Joni.

As ex-Grazers, the Pol Joni would be more likely to worship Kargzant or Yelmalio.  Some of that will spill over back into the Sartarite tribes.

 

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, svensson said:

Now I strongly believe that Orlanth Rex ought to provide Elmal's cult with a spell in gratitude for the Loyal Thane's just and honorable care for Orlanth's people while he was on the Lightbringer's Quest. Orlanth Thunderous is important to the tula for his weather control magic. That also supports that 'concerns at home' sensibility in the cult. So if we wish to discard an Orlanth subcult, logically it would be Orlanth Adventurous.

That's two runespells and still far too many.  Elmal doesn't need a helping hand from Orlanth Thunderous in addition to Orlanth in general.  

8 minutes ago, svensson said:

It seems to me that the solution is to move Shield up to the Rune Spells known and taught by Elmal's cult, and remove the other Orlanth Adventurous magics altogether.

Insofar as Jeff was once talking about variations of Yelmalio (Kargzant, Elmal etc), Orlanth was providing him with Shield.

[metcalph]

11 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Maybe that's the right idea if you want the "loyal thane". Make him  a subculture of Orlanth. The upcoming Lightbringer Cult book will have Odayla and Voriof as sub cults of Orlanth. So a subcult can worship a different deity and not just a different aspect of him  (like Thunderous and Adventurous). But it doesn't "bring back Elmal" if that is the idea. If you want to have an "Elmal cult" that should probably just be a regional way of worshipping Yelmalio. (Like Waha is a god for butchers in Sartar but a god for warriors and khans in Prax).

I think the term used was subservient deity, which means that the minor (tribal) temple to Orlanth can obtain Elmal's runespells.  This means they don't get HYyalor's Command Horse (but you really don't need to be worship an associate of the Horse God to be good at fighting on horseback - just ask the Malkioni) but they do get Sunbright or Catseye which would be good fighting in the Dark.

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

As ex-Grazers, the Pol Joni would be more likely to worship Kargzant or Yelmalio.  Some of that will spill over back into the Sartarite tribes.

They aren’t ex-grazers. Their founder was an Orlanthi from the Blue Jay Clan of the Dundealos tribe, they are Heortlings, not Grazers or Pentans.

9 hours ago, svensson said:

Cult Skills: Animal Lore, Herd, Ride Horse, Scan, Bow, Spear

I wouldn’t give Animal Lore, that’s identifying wild animals, but I would give Celestial Lore. In addition I would maybe add Sing or Orate, maybe both.  

9 hours ago, svensson said:

Rune Spells: Cloud Clear, Command [Horse], Sunbright, Sureshot, Truespear.

I’d swap Command Horse for Clear Sight, which reflects his victory over the illusions of the Teller of Lies. I’d instead give him Command Horse through Hyalor (or Beren or Ulanin) as an associate/hero cult, after all, the Runegate clans are the Hyaloring Triaty for a reason.

9 hours ago, svensson said:

-- Orlanth Adventurous provides Shield and Wind Words

-- Orlanth Thunderous provides Cloud Call; provides Thunderbolt to High Priest

-- Orlanth Rex provides Detect Honor; provides Command Worshipers to High Priest

-- Chalana Arroy provides Restore Health

I would have Orlanth (irrespective of subcult) give a single spell: Shield. Associate spells come from mythic interactions rather than rewards for service. Orlanth traded shields with Elmal when he departed on the Lightbringer Quest. I would not give him additional atmospheric magic beyond Cloud Clear.

The reward that Elmal’s cultists get from their god’s loyalty to Orlanth in his kingship aspect probably isn’t Rex spells as an associate but the ability to become a Chief (as in Anatyr in the old material) and easily initiate into Orlanth Rex temporarily (or permanently as a tribal king) on that basis. It is my understanding that one must be a friendly or associated cult of Orlanth to do this. Yelmalio as a neutral cult would have difficulty mythically doing that, hence why the Sun Dome is outside of the kingship of Orlanth Rex.

Personally, if you’re going to make Chalana Arroy an associate (I’m not sure that I would), I would give Elmal Restore Vision from her, Erissa’s spell, because Chalana Arroy is said to have cured his blindness. In addition, like Heler, I’d give him Bless Crops from the Grain Goddesses (Elmal competes with Heler for Esrola’s hand every summer). I’d add to that Heal Body from Ernalda (healed by her daughters’ weeping for him while guarding the stead) and Speak to Horses (or the ability to learn the magic skill Understand Horse) from his/Beren’s wife Redalda, who I would treat rules-wise as a hero cult of Ernalda found in some clans.

Edited April 11, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

They aren’t ex-grazers. Their founder was an Orlanthi from the Blue Jay Clan of the Dundealos tribe, they are Heortlings, not Grazers or Pentans.

Their founder was from the Dundealos but he acquired many survivors from the Pure Horse Tribe (KoS p98 and p166) after the Battle of Alavan Algay.  KoS p109 makes note of their Praxian intake.  

 

[hipsterinspace]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Their founder was from the Dundealos but he acquired many survivors from the Pure Horse Tribe (KoS p98 and p166) after the Battle of Alavan Algay.  KoS p109 makes note of their Praxian intake.  

Nonetheless, they are not Pure Horse or Pentan, they are culturally Orlanthi. If you look at their demographics, they have a minor temple to Yelmalio, but I’d imagine that would be either the Praxian version or their post-revelation Elmali, not the Pentan Kargzant who the Pure Horse Tribe have no connection to.

[French Desperate WindChild]

mmm the orlanth rex association seems to me very strange

in one hand we have 2-3 or 5 orlanth rex initiate in a clan (or less, I m note sure) and only because they have a very high social position

in the other hand, you will have as many people as they want who will be able to get some rex rune spells ?

in my opinion, if you want to provide detect honor, consider it as a Elmal spell, not offered by Rex

And command worshipper is, in my opinion, not good at all :

Elmalishould obey, as Yelmalions obey. You don't need to command your people, these rebels called orlanthi.

So for me no association from Rex.

If you want some association with Orlanth choose only one sublcut, in my opinion it is adventurous because they are fighters, they explore, etc..  Seems to me wind word very interesting and logical for patrol activities.

For shield, if you consider that is usefull (of course :p) why not consider it as your Elmal spell. The loyal than is able to endure so many things, that's not thanks to Orlanth, that's his own value.

And I would remove "clear cloud", a loyal thane should not impede the power of his lord.

What did Elma with Chalana, I don't know

 

then, and it seems to me a very powerful  cult (more than Yelmalio):

rune spells : Command [Horse], Sunbrighten, Sureshot, Truespear, (Shield)

and from Adventurous Wind Words

 

but that's your glorantha, there will not be in mine, so that's just some thoughts, of course our glorantha may vary (in that case will 😛 )

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild