I Think I'm Going to Make Up My Own Elmal Cult

[svensson]

There is an awful lot written about the Elmal /Yelmalio controversy. @Jeff has even said that Elmal is likely to fade into memory after the Cults of Glorantha series is released. I'm fine with that by and large. Elmal has always been that quirky piece of a jigsaw puzzle that was supposed to fit into the mosaic of the Storm Pantheon, but had this funny corner that didn't fit quite right.

But as I think of the Storm Pantheon, I really like the dichotomy of the Loyal Thane, the dutiful sworn man who sees Honor in keeping home and hearth safe. And let's face it, in a world like Glorantha you NEED guys like him.

I'm only just fiddling with ideas in my head right this minute, but once I get something down on paper, I'll share it with the board.

I know the cult will keep horse /mounted combat aspect. I know it will have some access to Fire magics, though probably not a great deal. To put point on it, the Storm Pantheon already has access to Lightning and Thunderbolt, so no, they won't be getting access to Sunspear too. There will be some archery aspects to it too, but again, I'm not sure how much.

[Bren]

I'll be interested to see what you come up with. Just thinking aloud...keeping the home and hearth safe and mounted combat aren't connected in my mind. Yes, yes, I know knights were mounted and they guarded their own castles, but, mounted warriors seem to be more of a natural fit with going off on journeys, quests, and raids than with staying home.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Not sure why the "Loyal Thane" needs to have horsiness, Fire, and archery, especially when Yelmalio has little or none of them.  Elmal should have loyal and Thaney things ..

[Qizilbashwoman]

17 minutes ago, Bren said:

mounted warriors seem to be more of a natural fit with going off on journeys, quests, and raids than with staying hom

presumably when the horse was tamed, so was Elmal. There's often a lot of land to cover when you are guarding the territory.

 

[Agentorange]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

I'll be interested to see what you come up with. Just thinking aloud...keeping the home and hearth safe and mounted combat aren't connected in my mind. Yes, yes, I know knights were mounted and they guarded their own castles, but, mounted warriors seem to be more of a natural fit with going off on journeys, quests, and raids than with staying home.

The castle was basically just a fortified.....base 😃 ( sorry ! ) What the knight defended was his lands or holdings. So in that sense he'd be using the horse for mobility. Even if bandits are attacking the sheep herders just 2 miles away you're going to get there a damn sight faster on horseback than running and you won't be exhausted when you get there.

so i can go for the mounted combat bit.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

presumably when the horse was tamed, so was Elmal ...

☝️ THIS ☝️  is a fascinating Storm-variant on the Solars' horse-taming story (noting also the "Tame Bull" Rune-spell ... )
Much thinking to be done here!


Thank you, @Qizilbashwoman !!!
 
 

[Bren]

57 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

The castle was basically just a fortified.....base 😃 ( sorry ! ) What the knight defended was his lands or holdings. So in that sense he'd be using the horse for mobility. Even if bandits are attacking the sheep herders just 2 miles away you're going to get there a damn sight faster on horseback than running and you won't be exhausted when you get there.

so i can go for the mounted combat bit.

The part that is odd is not that defending the clan lands from horseback, it's that the guy that stays home is a mounted warrior while the guy who goes questing and raiding (probably) is not.

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

But as I think of the Storm Pantheon, I really like the dichotomy of the Loyal Thane, the dutiful sworn man who sees Honor in keeping home and hearth safe.

Dichotomy — isn’t that dangerously close to Lunar talk?

Spoiler

In astronomy the term is used for the aspect of the Moon or of a planet when apparently half illuminated, so that the illuminated part of its disk has the form of a semicircle. — Britannica

On the one hand, a loyal, honourable, and useful god — who definitely isn’t going to eat the children from the inside — could be a bit dull.

On the other, I am bound to praise all dissident cult building — so good luck with this — and let’s hope that the firm grip of the fiery truth sometimes gives Orlanth pause for thought. Elmal as the conscience of the Storm Tribe: “Stop raging and puffing for a moment and think of your duty … sir.” The grizzled NCO to Orlanth’s anti-heroic junior officer?

[dumuzid]

7 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Dichotomy — isn’t that dangerously close to Lunar talk?

'dichotomy' does more to invite good old-fashioned Unity Council Hegelianism, to me

[svensson]

@Bren @Rodney Dangerduck @Qizilbashwoman

Most tula need patrolling. Just guarding the walls of the chieftain's village isn't sufficient if the rest of the clan is starving. What's more, the thanes owe the whole clan protection not just the nobles and craftsmen. Because of all that, you'll require horsemen to patrol the clan territories.

And all that is in addition to the stated canon references of Elmal being the Orlanthi horse deity.

The idea here is that if you look over the Pantheons comparatively, you see a series strengths, weaknesses, and minor gods designed to fill niche roles and give the whole pantheon minor access to powers that are strengths in other pantheons. For example, as we are discussing in another thread, Lokarnos isn't a direct equivalent to Issaries, but he does provide the Sky Pantheon with some Movement Rune magic to offset Yelm's tendency towards Stasis. So my idea for Elmal is to provide Storm with minor access to Spear/Archery/Horse/Fire powers. But I'm still mulling over just how much of each and haven't reached any conclusions about that yet.

[svensson]

@mfbrandi

My vision of Elmal is that he sees the Lightbringer's Quest as being fundamentally Just and Honorable. Orlanth recognizes and admits that he made a mistake, a mistake that is risking the existence of the whole world. So Orlanth publicly admits his mistake and then goes about trying to correct it, partially as an act of contrition and partially save his people.

With that in mind, I don't see the Loyal Thane as the grizzled NCO trying to school his new officer. Rather, I see Elmal understanding that Orlanth has lawful duties that pulls him in two opposing directions. Orlanth is not trying to dodge any of his duties, but is conflicted... what is the greater duty, to protect his sworn people or correct his personal error that is causing so much destruction to everyone? In my mind this more like a platoon leader telling his company CO, 'Don't worry, sir. I got things nailed down here. Go do what you have to do'.

Edited April 8, 2023 by svensson

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Because of all that, you'll require horsemen to patrol the clan territories.

You can make the same argument for many cults.

"People get wounded, need crops blessed, and face oathbreakers in distant villages.  Therefore Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, and Babs Gor need horse (or mobility) magic...

That said, Elmal traditionally had horsey stuff for some reason, so it's reasonable to continue the tradition.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Joerg]

One thing to keep in mind: a deity may be worshiped by people of a certain profession, but may not deliver any specific feats or rune spells for that task (except through obscure hero- or sub-cults forgotten in RQG except for the Trickster).

The identification of Elmal with the Lightfore planet seems to be canon. "It's the same deity" is a stout statement for a limited perception of an Otherworld entity. Monrogh's heroquesting has established an identity, and initiates of Elmal are allowed as co-religionists at Yelmalio temples, although with weird and at times objectionable ideas and mannerisms. They will be able to attend Kargzant rites among the Pentans (assuming they survive to make friendly contact), too, again as weird outlanders with crazy misconceptions about the Sunhorse. In either case, some local tithing and generous sacrifices will allow a smooth acceptance after some effort.

This identification bit runs both ways. Foes of Lightfore may latch onto Elmal or Yelmalio or Kargzant cultists as ritual enemies, and might draw them into their heroquesting. Likewise friends of Lightfore by another name might call such cultists in as support.

There will be local myths providing local sacred sites. Elmal was the static cold sun offering light to the Vingkotling (and in the Silver Age, Heortling) lands from his seat atop Kero Fin (a site shared with the Orlanthi worship of Pole Star, at least IMG). Of course, the icy top of Kero Fin is a magical realm, and ruled by Inora and claimed by Orlanth, leaving only Zorak Zoran out of the Hill of Gold quartet as non-participant in any activities there (although having had a conflict there might help, too). Any use of this site requires an exchange of gifts and assurances with (the cult of) Orlanth and some propitiation of Orlanth's icy sister. Some generosity towards the Shaker Temple to placate the Mountain Mother won't hurt, either.

In other words, there is roleplaying to be done to access this place, possibly as a pilgrimage accompanying experienced cultists, possibly as a heroquest to be able to get there on your own when you need it.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

One thing to keep in mind: a deity may be worshiped by people of a certain profession, but may not deliver any specific feats or rune spells for that task

See Yelmalio, who is remarkably ineffectual and even provides geases that make the recipients suck at their job.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

@Joerg @Akhôrahil

Yeah, I know that many cults occupy mythical niches but not practical game mechanic ones. Remember the discussion we all got into regarding Hunter Gods?

What I'm hoping to do is scale down the expansiveness of Yelmalio's cult but still add Air/Storm elements to it. Since Elmal is not a Lightbringer, he's not going to have a huge list of spells, especially Rune spells. I'm thinking maybe 4 or 5 Spirit magic spells and one or two Rune spells all told. I want him to be more useful than Odayla and Yinkin, but he should not be as powerful Eurmal or Chalana Arroy. What's more, I don't want him to take the place of cults we're expecting this summer when the GoG books start coming out. Gustbran will still the patron of the 'fire crafters' [smiths, potters, etc.], for one example. The idea is that Elmal will fill a very niche role in the Storm family, but 'stay in his lane' so to speak.

Edited April 21, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

You can make the same argument for many cults.

"People get wounded, need crops blessed, and face oathbreakers in distant villages.  Therefore Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, and Babs Gor need horse (or mobility) magic...

That said, Elmal traditionally had horsey stuff for some reason, so it's reasonable to continue the tradition.

It's true that a lot of people need to ride horses to get around in a clan, especially in emergencies. But let's not forget that Orlanthi steadings are pretty self-sufficient for most day to day problems. Ernalda provides the women of the stead with some pretty solid Healing spells, while Orlanth handles things like weather, protection, and even offensive spells. So if a steading has 6 or 8 initiated adults on it, you can almost bet cash money that at least one of the women will have Heal Body or Regrow Limb [both vital on a farm where accidents happen] and at least one of the men will have Cloud Call/Clear, Rain, and one of Orlanth's offensive spells.

And there are clans that give primacy to other gods than Orlanth. Some focus on war, the hunt, trade or give Ernalda pride of place. In addition, we know that the Narri of the Colymar hold Elmal the Loyal Thane as their patron. So it just seems fair to do a writeup of Elmal as Orlanth's sidekick, not as huge or central to a way of life as Yelmalio and with more of Storm aspect to him.

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not sure why the "Loyal Thane" needs to have horsiness, Fire, and archery, especially when Yelmalio has little or none of them. 

Doesn't Elmal get horsey stuff from his wife?

[hipsterinspace]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Doesn't Elmal get horsey stuff from his wife?

I think, at least canonically, some of the little sun cults get Command Horse from Hyalor and Speak to Horse from Gamari. For Elmali I’d imagine the latter is probably called Redalda.

[mfbrandi]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:39 PM, svensson said:

I know it will have some access to Fire magics, though probably not a great deal … they won't be getting access to Sunspear

So who is Elmal according to your take? The Sun that rises in the morning and descends into the Underworld every evening (per the Elmal cultists of Hero Wars/Storm Tribe, presumably making Yelm an imposter of some kind from their POV), Lightfore (cold as the dead, only comes out at night, and therefore hangs out with zombies like ZZ), or another member of the Fire/Sky lot, not necessarily with their own ‘planet’? Or … ?

Edited April 9, 2023 by mfbrandi

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So who is Elmal according to your take? The Sun that rises in the morning and descends into the Underworld every evening (per the Elmal cultists of Hero Wars/Storm Tribe, presumably making Yelm an imposter of some kind from their POV), Lightfore (cold as the dead, only comes out at night, and therefore hangs out with zombies like ZZ), or another member of the Fire/Sky lot, not necessarily with their own ‘planet’? Or … ?

How about rider of the sun horse by day, watchman and loyal thane by night?

[svensson]

@mfbrandi @Joerg

I will probably portray him as receiving his Fire powers [whatever they may be] as the Rider of the Sun Horse who was a Light in the Great Darkness, perhaps as a banked hearthfire that doesn't produce much light but warms all those near.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So who is Elmal according to your take? The Sun that rises in the morning and descends into the Underworld every evening (per the Elmal cultists of Hero Wars/Storm Tribe, presumably making Yelm an imposter of some kind from their POV)

I like the compromise position that Yelm is the sun disk and Elmal transports it (by horse or cart).

[Erol of Backford]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:39 AM, svensson said:

I really like the dichotomy of the Loyal Thane, the dutiful sworn man who sees Honor in keeping home and hearth safe.

I am on board with any Elmal Cult items you develop.

I love the Loyal Thane idea as it allows Orlanthi to have some inroads with the Sartar Sun Dome and Sun County in Prax at least in the campaign we are running. The Elmali in Runegate, Horse Town or the Narri of the Colymar would be close cousins to the Yelmalio in the Sartar Sun Dome and any Elmali in the Heortland? There must be several groups of Elmali in Sartar who don't suddenly pick up their families and run to Sun Dome County?

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

They will be able to attend Kargzant rites among the Pentans (assuming they survive to make friendly contact), too, again as weird outlanders with crazy misconceptions about the Sunhorse. In either case, some local tithing and generous sacrifices will allow a smooth acceptance after some effort.

I keep going back to Joerg's article on the Elmali of Heortland... maybe some of them came from Sartar when the whole “Elmali Civil War” didn't sit well with them, maybe Monrogh was not the respected and revered priest for all of the Elmali in Sartar?

I can't find it but wasn't there a cult write up for Elmal in one of the fanzines?

Some temples allied with the True Golden Horde to assault the Dragon’s Nest, resulting in the Dragonkill War. The Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass was razed – like every other human settlement in Dragon Pass. (The Well: The Sun Dome Temple in Sartar - Posted on January 28, 2021)

Where was the old Sun Dome in Dragon Pass that was razed? It might be a great place to find an artifact to start a new temple (maybe say Backford) along with any potential of a crystal gained from the Hill of Gold Hero Quest?

...he escaped with the last particle of decency of the Fire Tribe in the Justice Spear he bore. (Storm Tribe p.46) The Justice Spear sounds like something worth investigating?

...but they still coveted his brilliance. (Storm Tribe p.46) So seems like any light related powers would still be part of the cult.

sun horse-mounted combat aspect, mounted patrol covers a lot of territory, tracking down cattle raiders, spear, lance horse archey of course.

On 4/8/2023 at 2:53 PM, Agentorange said:

Even if bandits are attacking the sheep herders just 2 miles away you're going to get there a damn sight faster on horseback than running and you won't be exhausted when you get there.

Exactly and most campaigns we've had over the years end up having all the PC's who go questing end up being mounted, especially in places like Prax. With dwarven made wagons to carry extra things... usually turns into some sort of trade caravan moving place to place...

23 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

“Stop raging and puffing for a moment and think of your duty … sir.” The grizzled NCO to Orlanth’s anti-heroic junior officer?

23 hours ago, svensson said:

In my mind this more like a platoon leader telling his company CO, 'Don't worry, sir. I got things nailed down here. Go do what you have to do'.

Both fit for me as the Loyal Thane - almost paladin like, honor, duty, rigorousness, bright glowing light, goodness, protect the innocents, possibly even celibacy from the shrine at the NE side of Strom Walk, knightly even? Yes teased by Stormbull and even Humakti as square or awkward but still cool compared to the misogynistic xenophobics that are the Yelmalians.

 

[radmonger]

I'd be tempted to reframe this question as 'how could someone, for example a heroquesting pc,  refound the cult of Elmal such that it stuck around.this time?'

Spirits cults and shrine cults can run purely on the basis of 'this is cool magic noone else has'. Kallyr Starbrow has a star on her brow, and most people are impressed. But few copy her, because having a star on your brow doesn't really solve any problem any identifiable group of people has. Rune cults are big heavyweight social organisations, requiring at least tens of people working full time to maintain their existence. In a basically bronze age society, they need an reason for continued existence, an answer to the question 'why are we worshipping this cult and not another'? 

Existing successfull rune cults generally correspond to one of three things: a gender (Orlanth, Ernalda, Heler), an ethnicity (Telmor, Yinkin, Odayla) or a profession (Lhankhor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Humakt, ...). All of those provide sufficient numbers of people who know a valid answer to the above question; 'because of who we are'.

It seems Yelmalio is what you get when you worship Lightfore as the male gender role model, Ernalda's husband. So to _get_ something different, you would have to _do_ something different.

As a professional cult, Elmal has never made much sense. He might be the favoured deity of the newly appointed thane, the one who is eager to be doing guard duty and unquestioning in their loyalty to the chief. But that's one guy, not a congregation.

There is a potential niche for 'loyal bodyguards of the rightful Prince'. Traditionally that has been the Telmori,  but slot that is going to be opening up soon. Canonically i think it is the humakti who take over, but maybe that's open to change?

Otherwise you have to get really wild. Elmali magic could likely support  a means of communication between cites, given suitably large towers and some way of transcoding messages as patterns of lights. Such a system would need full-time operators, with their own skills and secrets. Maybe that will finally provide Elmal with a proper social role, as patron deity of the royal corps of signallers:

https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Clacks#:~:text=The clacks in Terry Pratchett,Discworld's first telecommunications network.

Edited April 9, 2023 by radmonger

[Ali the Helering]

Who is Elmal?

Elmal is the loyal thane, the sun on the mountains, the new hope that arises with the morning.  Yelm is a perversion, the Evil Emperor.  Yelmalio is the weak, pathetic kinsman, with neither fire nor horse magics.

Elmal is the true sun.  Destroyer of Chaos, withstander of underminers, the one who regains his power due to the love and tears of his followers.  He is mighty.  

We have been Gregged.  Blessed be the name of the Greg.