I Think I'm Going to Make Up My Own Elmal Cult

[svensson]

@Shiningbrow

Thanks for your thoughts! I'll reply in something like the order you posted.

1. Orlanthi use both Bows and Javelins in roughly equal proportions, and every professional warrior in Glorantha starts a battle by whittling the odds down some with missile fire. And those that don't are fools. 😁 OK, there is the heavy infantry [Yelmalion phalangists, etc.] who pay other people to do it for them, but it still gets done.

Slings are perceived as a poor carl's weapon, the kind of thing a sheepherder would use. More importantly, slings are classified as Darkness weapons [what with the blunt ammo] and is the iconic weapon of the Uz god Zong, Kyger Litor's Hunting Son. Bows are seen to require more skill to use, more skilled maintenance, and are therefore considered more 'professional'. Javelins are in between. It's not unreasonable that an Elmali would choose Javelin instead of Bow based on availability on and finances of a steading. Given that Elmal's principle Elemental Rune remains Fire, I don't see a problem there.

2. Elmal worshiping clans are just as adept as Horsegrazers or Pol-Joni for breeding excellent horseflesh, thank you very much. While the Orlanthi don't field heavy cavalry like the Carmanian kataphraktoi or Praxian Bison Riders [and let's be honest here... the Bison Riders 'heavy' cavalry is the size of the mount not the armor on the man], I haven't seen anything that says that says the Enhyli of the Colymar Tribe doesn't contribute a highly practiced and very capable medium cavalry squadron to the Colymar's war muster. So I've chosen to encourage that behavior.

Again, this is only providing MINOR access to the skill set. No Orlanthi army has a predominance of cavalry forces and most Orlanthi commanders are not cavalry commanders. This is one reason why, from a practical standpoint, Argrath marrying the Feathered Horse Queen is so important. It provides the Dragon Pass forces with cavalry every single bit as good as the Lunar levies from Carmania and Pent.

3. I didn't really emphasize the Fire aspect of Elmal other than three Spirit Magic spells. Whether the Yelmites like it or not, Elmal the Loyal Thane was one of the Lights in the Great Darkness, and he worked to save people just as hard as Pole Star and Yelorna, and with MUCH more success than the latter. He 'kept the home fires burning', so to speak, guiding people to safety and because of that I felt that he ought to have some fire magic, but not a lot of it. This is also the reason why Elmal doesn't summon or control Fire elementals.

4. As to Spirit Magic spell selections, Elmal's cult is small. What's more, it has the same problems with spellteaching as Humakt's cult does: the only source of spellteaching are the Sun Thanes... in addition to training damned near anyone who asks how to ride a horse, supervising the horse herds of the clan and possibly tribe [hey, go to the expert, right?], being a professional thane in service to the clan and tribe etc.

With those two factors in play, I felt that the spell list should be pretty limited. You'll notice that Elmal doesn't teach Bladesharp either... Besides, Heal and Protection are easily available to an Elmali clansman through Ernalda and Orlanth respectively.

5. I thought Lantern, cast on a shield as it is, was more important to a guardsman type figure. YGMV, but that's how I saw it.

6. Because of his work in defending the people from all enemies and in all circumstances, I felt that Orlanth would reward his Loyal Thane with one of his iconic combat spells when he held his great feast after the Lightbringers Quest. Lightning made more sense than Thunderbolt.

7. The reason I didn't give Elmal anti-Chaos magic was because that's a very niche set of magical skills. Only one god in the Storm Pantheon has that magic, and Elmal's myths don't ever mention Urox/Storm Bull. That's why I didn't include those spells. Elmal did face Chaos, but he had to master the fear within himself instead of bolstering his Courage with magic. And in a sense, that makes him all the more admirable.

I think that got to everything you mentioned and I hope I answered your questions.  Take a look at my final version in the Downloads section.

Edited April 15, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

@Shiningbrow

Oh, one of your points that I forgot to mention. In an Elmal-worshiping clan, you can pretty much bet that Uralda/Eiritha are gonna have a larger presence than is normal in a more 'mainstream' Orlanthi clan. The Uralda/Eiritha cult provides a great deal of 'herd-health' magic and I thought that they would handle foaling. This leaves the horsemen/women of Elmal free to do the work they're focused on, guardianship.

[radmonger]

59 minutes ago, svensson said:

Bows are seen to require more skill to use, more skilled maintenance, and are therefore considered more 'professional'.

Firing a bow  from horseback in a militarily effective way, using no magic and bronze age gear,goes beyond professional to requiring a whole way of life. Even most roman and medieval mounted archers would dismount to shoot, although the Romans did have some nomad auxiliaries with the relevant skills.

Meanwhile in Glorantha, Yelmalio teaches Kuschile horse archery, which while badly represented in the rules, is clearly meant to let someone fire from horseback while moving, with unexceptional ride skill. And whatever Elmal cultists may or may not think, Yelmalio temples absolutely do consider Elmal initiates to be one of their own, and so will teach them that.

I do think most Elmali thanes would take advantage of that offer. But if there are any that reject it, they are probably better off using javelins well than bows badly.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

As to Spirit Magic spell selections, Elmal's cult is small.

But Yelmalio's cult is not, and does have Rune Priests...

 

[AlexS]

Thanks @svensson, the writeup is great. I really like the horsey flavour and the light-touch Fire elements. I agree with you about the bow rather than the javelin, though I might swap out the sword for the spear as a differentiator in relation to Yelmalio (though that is influenced by my association of Elmal with Greg's Light Orlanthi cultural tradition, which emphasises the bow and the sword, with the spear as a tertiary weapon).

Although I think the writeup is already pretty playable as is, I am not 100% convinced by the Rune Magic list. In particular I have an issue with the fact that the writeup says that 'Orlanth provides Cloud Clear and Lightning'.

Even though it is an Orlanth Thunderous Spell as well as a Yelm one, Cloud Clear just feel too Sun-centric for me. Elmal is a Lightfore / Little Sun deity (I guess that implies that the Rune Lords should be 'Light Thanes' rather than Sun Thanes, but I'm not so sure about that). 

Sure Elmal has some some Fire powers reflected in his spirit magic selection, but his Rune magic should be about light in the darkness not about the Sun per se. So, Cloud Clear doesn't feel right – and neither does Sunbright but that's just because of the name, as its actual function is about bringing daylight to the darkness which is fine for Elmal.

As for Lightning, it just feels too OP. Would Orlanth really give Elmal an offensive spell rather than a defensive one? Can't he just give the Shield spell? It is already on the list in the writeup, but coming from Elmal directly – if it came through the Orlanth association it would symbolise Elmal being tasked with the defender role.

The list also includes 'Oath Shield', which I presume is missing a comma – so Elmal has Oath as well as Shield. Oath does reflect his Truth Rune, but it just feels a bit too Humaktish; Elmal's loyalty is about who he is, not about a specific binding promise.

To reinforce the horseyness, I'd also add Speak with Horse to the list – but coming from Elmal's association with Redalda (not Uralda, she's the Cow Mother), as @Akhôrahil had suggested.

Anyway, thanks again for your work on this, and for kicking off a great discussion!

[svensson]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Firing a bow  from horseback in a militarily effective way, using no magic and bronze age gear,goes beyond professional to requiring a whole way of life. Even most roman and medieval mounted archers would dismount to shoot, although the Romans did have some nomad auxiliaries with the relevant skills.

Meanwhile in Glorantha, Yelmalio teaches Kuschile horse archery, which while badly represented in the rules, is clearly meant to let someone fire from horseback while moving, with unexceptional ride skill. And whatever Elmal cultists may or may not think, Yelmalio temples absolutely do consider Elmal initiates to be one of their own, and so will teach them that.

I do think most Elmali thanes would take advantage of that offer. But if there are any that reject it, they are probably better off using javelins well than bows badly.

But Yelmalio's cult is not, and does have Rune Priests...

 

And yet of the two Sun Dome Counties we have any information about, neither of them field cavalry. This, of course, doesn't mean that they don't have horses but it does imply quite strongly that horsemanship and horse archery are simply not a priority and it is not focused upon.

As for the size of the two cults, well, so what? Yelmalio's is a different path, one of rigid thought, draconian social control, and an incredible lack of the freedom so beloved by Orlanthi everywhere. I specifically designed my version of Elmal to be a Storm cult, for those who remained loyal to their clans and to the Orlanthi way of life.

Edited April 15, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

52 minutes ago, AlexS said:

Thanks @svensson, the writeup is great. I really like the horsey flavour and the light-touch Fire elements. I agree with you about the bow rather than the javelin, though I might swap out the sword for the spear as a differentiator in relation to Yelmalio (though that is influenced by my association of Elmal with Greg's Light Orlanthi cultural tradition, which emphasises the bow and the sword, with the spear as a tertiary weapon).

Although I think the writeup is already pretty playable as is, I am not 100% convinced by the Rune Magic list. In particular I have an issue with the fact that the writeup says that 'Orlanth provides Cloud Clear and Lightning'.

Even though it is an Orlanth Thunderous Spell as well as a Yelm one, Cloud Clear just feel too Sun-centric for me. Elmal is a Lightfore / Little Sun deity (I guess that implies that the Rune Lords should be 'Light Thanes' rather than Sun Thanes, but I'm not so sure about that). 

Sure Elmal has some some Fire powers reflected in his spirit magic selection, but his Rune magic should be about light in the darkness not about the Sun per se. So, Cloud Clear doesn't feel right – and neither does Sunbright but that's just because of the name, as its actual function is about bringing daylight to the darkness which is fine for Elmal.

As for Lightning, it just feels too OP. Would Orlanth really give Elmal an offensive spell rather than a defensive one? Can't he just give the Shield spell? It is already on the list in the writeup, but coming from Elmal directly – if it came through the Orlanth association it would symbolise Elmal being tasked with the defender role.

The list also includes 'Oath Shield', which I presume is missing a comma – so Elmal has Oath as well as Shield. Oath does reflect his Truth Rune, but it just feels a bit too Humaktish; Elmal's loyalty is about who he is, not about a specific binding promise.

To reinforce the horseyness, I'd also add Speak with Horse to the list – but coming from Elmal's association with Redalda (not Uralda, she's the Cow Mother), as @Akhôrahil had suggested.

Anyway, thanks again for your work on this, and for kicking off a great discussion!

You're welcome Alex. I appreciate the support.

My version of Elmal may not jive with Your Glorantha. That's totally fine. No game, milieu, or setting survives contact with player characters intact anyway 😁

I don't think Lightning is OP when you compare it to Thunderbolt and Sunstrike. Of the three, it is the lesser spell. What's more, it can be cast in any weather or lighting condition and I feel this makes it appropriate for a warrior cult with close ties to Orlanth.

I did omit a comma with Oath and Shield, thanks for the catch.

I put Oath and Detect Truth in the spell lists to acknowledge Elmal's ties with the Truth Rune and I don't feel Oath is as 'Humakt-ish' as, say, Sever Spirit. I think of Oath as a spell to bind strangers into an honorable pact, thereby building the trust that is essential to a clan, so I included it in Elmal's portfolio. My thought was that in the Great Darkness, many strangers were guided to safety by Elmal's Light. Trust had to be built and the Oath spell illustrates that process.

As I have read Uralda, she is the HERD mother... the patroness of all beasts who are domesticated by Men. While the Praxians may separate Eiritha into Impala-Eiritha, Llama-Eiritha, and so forth in their spirit traditions, it has no effect on Rune Magics employed. A Bison-Woman can cast an Eiritha spell on a Bolo Lizard with the same efficacy it would have on her own herd beasts. Because of that, I see Uralda taking in cattle, horses, goats, and so on under her care. Certainly the Orlanthi focus of Uralda worship is on cattle... that is the basic unit of wealth. But it's not too far off the beaten path to see Uralda-women in the Enhyli clan caring for the annual foaling.

[AlexS]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

My version of Elmal may not jive with Your Glorantha.

Cheers @svensson - it certainly jives enough to be usable (maybe with a little modding of the Rune magic) in our Glorantha, hence the appreciation for your work! 

Re: Lightning – my issue wasn't that Thunderbolt or Sunstrike (Sunspear?) would have been better, I was just questioning whether Elmal needed an offensive spell given his defender focus. But access to Lightning certainly makes Elmal more attractive as am adventurer option, so that is definitely a plus.

Re: Oath – OK, I like the God Time stranger-binding rationale.

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

I see Uralda taking in cattle, horses, goats, and so on under her care.

That could work except for the way that horses seem to be treated as so different (mythologically, socially and historically) from other herd-beasts, hence my preference for Redalda as a horse-specific goddess... but in game-mechanical terms I guess there wouldn't be any difference. 

[hipsterinspace]

52 minutes ago, svensson said:

I put Oath and Detect Truth in the spell lists to acknowledge Elmal's ties with the Truth Rune and I don't feel Oath is as 'Humakt-ish' as, say, Sever Spirit. I think of Oath as a spell to bind strangers into an honorable pact, thereby building the trust that is essential to a clan, so I included it in Elmal's portfolio. My thought was that in the Great Darkness, many strangers were guided to safety by Elmal's Light. Trust had to be built and the Oath spell illustrates that process.

Crucially, Sever Spirit is integrated into the Oath spell: if you break your oath you get hit with a Sever Spirit with an effective POW of the magic points stacked into it.

[svensson]

9 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Crucially, Sever Spirit is integrated into the Oath spell: if you break your oath you get hit with a Sever Spirit with an effective POW of the magic points stacked into it.

The crucial difference between Oath and Sever Spirit is that Oath is voluntary. You can't 'attack' with an Oath spell, each participant voluntarily contributes MP to the spell's effect. You can avoid the consequences of an Oath spell by simply not participating in it. Of course, that might have other consequences for you, but that's a tail on another herd beast 😉

[Erol of Backford]

I have 2 questions:

Where was the old Sun Dome in Dragon Pass that was razed during the Dragon Kill and would Sartar Emali find it's ruins as a holy place? I don't recall where I read about it but thought someone might know even if noncanon...

If the lance isn't considered the same as spear (not up to date with new weapon proficiencies) wouldn't the lance also be a weapon of choice for mounted Emali units especially when the Hendriki of old had a good bit of western influence or so I had read, again maybe not canon?

Love the thread Mr. Svensson.

[svensson]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have 2 questions:

Where was the old Sun Dome in Dragon Pass that was razed during the Dragon Kill and would Sartar Emali find it's ruins as a holy place? I don't recall where I read about it but thought someone might know even if noncanon...

If the lance isn't considered the same as spear (not up to date with new weapon proficiencies) wouldn't the lance also be a weapon of choice for mounted Emali units especially when the Hendriki of old had a good bit of western influence or so I had read, again maybe not canon?

Love the thread Mr. Svensson.

Thanks Erol. Nice of you to say.

Lance is considered a Spear attack while mounted, either one- or two-handed depending on style.

Like you, I have my own biases about Lances and Spears. IMGU, a lance and a spear have one one difference from each other... how many legs are under it when the guy tries to jab it into the other guy. Insofar as construction goes, they are precisely the same weapon. Each of them is a 6-12 foot piece of seasoned hardwood with one bladed end and possibly a metal butt-cap. There are exactly three ways to wield said spear from horseback. Overhand, couched [like a European knight] and two-handed [like a Byzantine cataphract]. Had my way, I'd make Lance its own skill. But that would be getting kind of granular and, well, ticky-tack. The old medievalist in me sees things one way, but the practical gamer in me understands why Spear and Lance were combined.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

would Sartar Emali find it's ruins as a holy place?

it depends on what is your glorantha

 

now in rqg there is no more Elmali, and if they are, they are just Yelmalions refusing to accept it, so of course, it is holy (by divination, any sense / feeling, what you want...).

If you follow another way, where Elmal is not Yelmalio, then no reason, except if this dome was, in your glorantha, built on a notorious battle between the two gods, but that can only be in your glorantha so the answer is yours.

 

that's the issue when we start to change the background (here Elmal vs Yelmalio) we have to fix all the issues and questions generated by the change.

 

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

3. I didn't really emphasize the Fire aspect of Elmal other than three Spirit Magic spells. Whether the Yelmites like it or not, Elmal the Loyal Thane was one of the Lights in the Great Darkness, and he worked to save people just as hard as Pole Star and Yelorna, and with MUCH more success than the latter. He 'kept the home fires burning', so to speak, guiding people to safety and because of that I felt that he ought to have some fire magic, but not a lot of it. This is also the reason why Elmal doesn't summon or control Fire elementals.

Except, gods don't give spirit magic... spirits do. Hence why it's called "spirit" magic...

So, at the moment, your fire god that drives the sun across the sky, currently gives zero fire magic himself.

(Unless you're changing point 1)

16 hours ago, svensson said:

@Shiningbrow

Oh, one of your points that I forgot to mention. In an Elmal-worshiping clan, you can pretty much bet that Uralda/Eiritha are gonna have a larger presence than is normal in a more 'mainstream' Orlanthi clan. The Uralda/Eiritha cult provides a great deal of 'herd-health' magic and I thought that they would handle foaling. This leaves the horsemen/women of Elmal free to do the work they're focused on, guardianship.

You're forgetting the myth of how Elmal joined the Storm Tribe (unless it's been retconned).

When Elmal first came to the Storm Tribe, all the other gods laughed at him because he was riding a horse - all except Redalda, who loved the horse. And it was this reason that those two got together (ie, they bonded over horses... as people do).

Passing this bit of magic off onto the ones who scorned him and his horse doesn't fit the myths...

Besides, Elmal was focussed on both the guarding and the horsing - (and other things, but aren't really mentioned)... and the guarding only came about when Orlanth left the stead to go fight Chaos and Elmal got left behind.

So, while it's your cult and your write-up, I do think your conflating the god, who he is and what he did, with the cult and what you want them to do. You could create an Eurmal Rex cult who is loved and adored by all, that has all powers from all elements ... but it wouldn't be supported by the myths that we have been given.

[svensson]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except, gods don't give spirit magic... spirits do. Hence why it's called "spirit" magic...

So, at the moment, your fire god that drives the sun across the sky, currently gives zero fire magic himself.

(Unless you're changing point 1)

You're forgetting the myth of how Elmal joined the Storm Tribe (unless it's been retconned).

When Elmal first came to the Storm Tribe, all the other gods laughed at him because he was riding a horse - all except Redalda, who loved the horse. And it was this reason that those two got together (ie, they bonded over horses... as people do).

Passing this bit of magic off onto the ones who scorned him and his horse doesn't fit the myths...

Besides, Elmal was focussed on both the guarding and the horsing - (and other things, but aren't really mentioned)... and the guarding only came about when Orlanth left the stead to go fight Chaos and Elmal got left behind.

So, while it's your cult and your write-up, I do think your conflating the god, who he is and what he did, with the cult and what you want them to do. You could create an Eurmal Rex cult who is loved and adored by all, that has all powers from all elements ... but it wouldn't be supported by the myths that we have been given.

Okay, as I understand it spirits loyal to a deity provide the deity's Spirit Magic.

As for horses and retconning...

I'm not rewriting the myths, nor am I trying to make Elmal/Yelamalio something he is not. My version of Elmal is how I think Storm clans sees him. The myths haven't changed, it is two societies who view the myths differently. They have different priorities and each sees the same myths in a different light [pun intended]. Because of these differences in viewpoint and emphasis, the cults will be very different from each other.

As I have said, think of this as two Protestant Christian faiths, say the Lutherans and the Calvinists. Each of them believes in the same sacred text, the Bible. Each of them worships the same Trinity. But each ascribes different importance to sacred events they both acknowledge and believe in. What's more, both were developed in different societies... the cultures were similar but if you ask ANY German, a Thuringer and a Schweizer [Thuringian and Swiss] have VERY different views on how to live life.

With this in mind, I imagine the Sun-Light-Schism as those Orlanthi who were attracted to a more rigid, more orderly life [without the clan feuds, cattle raids, etc.] chose Yelmalio and the Fire pantheon, while those who were content with rule under the Storm /Orlanthi cultural model stayed loyal to their clans.

Edited April 16, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

And something else occurs to me.

The final version of my take on Elmal is in the download section.

It's only been downloaded 3 times, and one of those was me as I checked the formatting.

So which two of you has seen my final copy? For those of you who haven't, may I suggest that you do so? There were some minor changes from the one here in the discussion.

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, svensson said:

And something else occurs to me.

The final version of my take on Elmal is in the download section.

It's only been downloaded 3 times, and one of those was me as I checked the formatting.

So which two of you has seen my final copy? For those of you who haven't, may I suggest that you do so? There were some minor changes from the one here in the discussion.

It looks good to me. I might change skills a bit, perhap "Bow or Javelin".

I may have missed something though, how do you think he gains Motion?

SDLeary

[svensson]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

It looks good to me. I might change skills a bit, perhap "Bow or Javelin".

I may have missed something though, how do you think he gains Motion?

SDLeary

It was a little addition on my part to tie him to the Storm pantheon. I found it a little odd that Elmal didn't share any runes at all with the two gods he was most associated with, Chalana Arroy and Orlanth, so I added Movement [as represented by horsemanship] to give Elmal a runic tie to the pantheon.

It made sense in my mind, but YGWV.

[Joerg]

On 4/15/2023 at 1:14 PM, svensson said:

It's not unreasonable that an Elmali would choose Javelin instead of Bow based on availability on and finances of a steading.

Have you seen the javelin prices? You can get a riding horse for one of those...

On 4/15/2023 at 4:44 PM, svensson said:

And yet of the two Sun Dome Counties we have any information about, neither of them field cavalry.

And yet the oldest source we have on the Sun Dome Temples says explicitey that the temples field mounted archers. They don't get any separate counters in the WBRM board game, though.

I am inclined to make the Bush Children (the fast mounted archers from that game) mounted Lightfore archers, from the Bush Range that was formerly part of Old Tarsh, which makes them Yelmalian.

 

On 4/15/2023 at 4:44 PM, svensson said:

This, of course, doesn't mean that they don't have horses but it does imply quite strongly that horsemanship and horse archery are simply not a priority and it is not focused upon.

I read the absence of separate horse archer counters in the Sun Dome County military as these outriders being attached to the phalanxes as designated skirmishers keeping enemy skirmishers off the flanks.

[radmonger]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I read the absence of separate horse archer counters in the Sun Dome County military as these outriders being attached to the phalanxes as designated skirmishers keeping enemy skirmishers off the flanks.

Likely when patrolling and fighting in defense of their own lands, they rely on auxiliary cavalry raised from the surrounding area. The preferred recruits for this are those who have some level of religious compatibility (Elmali in Sartar, relevant spirit societies in Prax). In the course of drilling and training, some of these initiate, or demonstrate that they already qualify as initiates.

But when they hire out in someone else's war as mercenaries, only the Templars go. The hiring army is expected to provide its own cavalry/avilry/vespertilary. This simplifies logistics, and provides a better value proposition than bundling elite heavy infantry with an undersized unit of not especially elite light cavalry.